Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by creb

On a completely different note, how do humans use their Cantus to set things on fire?

That doesn't strike me as being too difficult. All you'd have to do is get the molecules vibrating with enough energy that they react with the oxygen in the air.

A couple of my own observations about the episode...

When Satorou insisted on carrying the Psychobuster, I immediately got the impression that he saw killing the kid as a suicide mission. He knew that whoever unleashed the toxin would die in the attempt, and he didn't want Saki doing it. And like some other people have mentioned, I liked that Saki destroyed the toxin because she didn't want Satorou to die.

And about the kid... Shun was right. He's not a fiend. A fiend would have mowed down Saki and Satorou in an instant, as soon as he got past the mirror. All the kid did was growl at them, even after he got burned. But why didn't he kill them? Did the mirror have the effect Saki was hoping for? I hope we get some more insight into what he's thinking.

That said, though, I don't really see any way for the kid to survive. Even if they did manage to stop him from killing people, he'd still need to be educated and socialized before he could join the human society, and even then it would be hard to find a village that would accept him after what he did. I could be wrong, but I don't see a happy ending for him.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Triple R[/QUOTE

I never said he was being dishonest. You can sweeten the truth without being dishonest. Contrary to popular belief, politicians do tell the truth sometimes. Sometimes they simply put the sweetest possible spin on the truth, but it's still not technically a lie.

But this is where I disagree with you I don't see anything about what Kiroumaru said as putting a sweet position. Everything he said comes off matter a factly.

And again he pretty much admitted his tribe may attack them in the future when there might be a future. Obviously he told them this because he felt in this situation it was the best choice but you can't say he has nothing to lose with that confession.

Your country and mine recognizes human rights. That doesn't mean we're going to stand by and do nothing if a person goes batshit insane and tries to kill people.

Whatever you like to say even prisoners have human rights here.

I am not saying the queen didn't have to be stopped and maybe that was the only method for them but it just felt to me like the biggest irony when you are talking about human rights and you do that to your own mother.

What indication was there that the humans had any intention of attacking Kiroumaru's tribe?

Be careful here - If your argument is that the humans were so arbitrary or whimsical in their decisions to wipe out Queerat tribes that they simply couldn't be trusted, then that adds a great deal of credibility to Yakomaru's actions as well.

I don't have to be careful because Kiroumaru himself said the humans arbitrarily kill tribes and this is why he got the weapons. I have no reason to doubt Kiroumaru's reasons.

He was basically telling Saki & Satoru I am not on your side and I do what I do to protect my tribe.

What gall you have to lie in front of gods! Perhaps I should rip your filthy mouth open!" - Kiroumaru to Yakomaru, Episode 17

But Yakomaru was lying in front of the humans. Kiroumaru was speaking to Yakomaru here not the humans.

I am deeply ashamed I could not do as promised." - Kiroumaru to Saki, Episode 17

And perhaps he was ashamed.

Kiroumaru could be loyal to the humans ONLY if he didnt see that loyalty as a direct threat to his tribe. Loyalty to his tribe however came first that was what was made clear in this episode.

And yes if it came down to it and he felt he had to kill the humans to protect his tribe then he would.

Kiroumaru is clearly leading the humans to believe that he is entirely loyal to them. Look, that is deceitful on his part unless he really is entirely loyal to the humans.

He might not have outright told them the truth (which would be a foolhardy thing to do in this situation) but he also never said he is completely loyal.

I still think that is different than squealer who purposely lied or twisted the truth.

Edit: For me the only similarity between Yakomaru & Kiroumaru is neither are really on the human side but I feel Kiroumaru would stab me in the front and Yakomaru the back. Although I am purposely simplifying it.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"What gall you have to lie in front of gods! Perhaps I should rip your filthy mouth open!" - Kiroumaru to Yakomaru, Episode 17

"I am deeply ashamed I could not do as promised." - Kiroumaru to Saki, Episode 17

Kiroumaru is clearly leading the humans to believe that he is entirely loyal to them. Look, that is deceitful on his part unless he really is entirely loyal to the humans.

Er, you're reading a lot into figures of speech and formula here... But if we're talking about speech, the way Squealer speaks to humans most of the time, it's like he's constantly groveling. Kiroumaru uses very respectful language as well, but a more noble register.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To be fair, Yakomaru has definitely done some monstrous and horrible things. But now it sounds like Kiroumaru was at the very least contemplating the same.

Well... Kiroumaru once went against orders and risked his life to help the kids because he owed Satoru his life. At the same time Squealer was planning to betray Satoru & Saki, even though he owed Saki his life (if Saki hadn't stopped the queen she would've killed Squealer and we would have no story). Later on, he likely offered Maria and Mamoru shelter only to murder them later on. Of course, you can explain his actions in many ways, that for Squealer humans are ultimately not important, etc., but this is what I mean by Squealer being an asshole, and would still be one even if his goals were the noblest ones ever.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I'm halfway between you and Triple R on this issue; I'm not sure about Yakomaru's motivation at all. I can see him go either way.

He's in Tokyo because that's where his presence and brains are most urgently required. Obviously he had spies around the temple from whom he had learned what Saki & Satoru (and Kiroumaru) were up to. The kid is Squealer's ultimate weapon. Without him, the humans can finish their whole army once they recovered from the initial shock. It's a situation of utmost importance, one that no general wants to trust a subordinate with.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

As for Kiroumaru's honour, I'm not convinced enough to trust him. For example, when he told Saki and Satoru not to answer Yakomaru, I did buy his reasoning (assuming smell-tracking isn't possible in the current situation). But I also wondered whether Yakomaru might have something to say to them that Kiroumaru doesn't want them to hear.

Considering that Kiroumaru pretty much laid out all his cards for the two humans, by his free will, saying "well, I didn't really want to tell you this but there's no point in hiding it now"... He could've made up a lie about why he had come to Tokyo before, but he didn't.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

He's in Tokyo because that's where his presence and brains are most urgently required. Obviously he had spies around the temple from whom he had learned what Saki & Satoru (and Kiroumaru) were up to. The kid is Squealer's ultimate weapon. Without him, the humans can finish their whole army once they recovered from the initial shock. It's a situation of utmost importance, one that no general wants to trust a subordinate with.

I was thinking in broader terms. Yakomaru seems selfish, ambitious, ungrateful etc., and I wonder to what extent and why. I wonder what makes him tick. He feels like the sort of character who's been kicked around so much that he just doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself, but I'm not exactly sure that's all there is to him.

Considering that Kiroumaru pretty much laid out all his cards for the two humans, by his free will, saying "well, I didn't really want to tell you this but there's no point in hiding it now"... He could've made up a lie about why he had come to Tokyo before, but he didn't.

What can I say? Suspicious minds, heh. I tend to always think there's more than we see. Often there isn't. Here, being honest about the past is not the same as being honest about the present situation, especially if he hates Yakomaru. For example, "Yakomaru is just trying to track us," might come over better than "Yakomaru's going to tell you things that will confuse you, and you'll fall for him yet again, so you better not listen to what he has to say, even if it's the truth, because you can't afford to be distracted right now."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Well... Kiroumaru once went against orders and risked his life to help the kids because he owed Satoru his life. At the same time Squealer was planning to betray Satoru & Saki, even though he owed Saki his life (if Saki hadn't stopped the queen she would've killed Squealer and we would have no story). Later on, he likely offered Maria and Mamoru shelter only to murder them later on. Of course, you can explain his actions in many ways, that for Squealer humans are ultimately not important, etc., but this is what I mean by Squealer being an asshole, and would still be one even if his goals were the noblest ones ever.

I get what you're saying here. And I suspect this is what lies at the heart of why many want to view Yakomaru and Kiroumaru as complete opposites.

My impression is that Yakomaru has taken "the ends justify the means" to such an extreme that he is now essentially amoral. In other words, Yakomaru is willing to do anything, no matter how morally disturbing or outrageous, in order to accomplish his goals. It's understandable for a person with even just basic moral values to consider Yakomaru an asshole.

For Kiroumaru to be a good antithesis to Yakomaru, I wanted him to be someone who would refuse to cross certain lines. One such line is stabbing those in the back that had every reason to consider Kiroumaru a loyal ally (and Kiroumaru himself gave them those reasons). And yet, Kiroumaru's searching of a WMD, and his words about his tribe becoming the dominant species on the planet, does at least raise the question of "Was Kiroumaru willing to stab humanity in the back?" If he was, then the differences between Kiroumaru and Yakomaru become much murkier, imo.

Still, as you point out, Kiroumaru does seem to value the notion of "paying back debts", which is of some value at least. Yes, it's more than what can be said about Yakomaru. But I myself liked the conception of Kiroumaru as this straight-shooting man of his word who would never betray his allies, and hence he is the complete antithesis to the silver-tongued manipulator Yakomaru. But that conception of Kiroumaru takes a real hit if he was willing to sneak attack humanity with a WMD.

Here, I wish Kiroumaru's words were a bit less ambiguous. "We'd only use the WMD if you attacked us first." for example, is one line that would have alleviated most of my issues with the latest Kiroumaru reveal.

[Archon_Wing]

Kiromaru's speech was interesting. Queerrats fought tooth and nail for survival, living with the knowledge that they at least tried even if they were to die. At the same time, this is a stark contrast to the humans, who are so afraid that they seek every excuse to not do anything, and it was no surprise that they crumble so fast without a fight when met with extraordinary circumstances. In a sense, Saki's unwillingness to take out the psuedo-fiend was to be expected. Being alone is just too much, and thus this selfish act was just exactly what it is. This might have doomed them all, but maybe there is another solution.

Although I admit, the human side has never really been a side I've sympathized much with, other than looking like us. It's just that Yakomaru's actions haven't made their side so symaptheitc either.

Though no mirrors though eh? Certainly he could see the rest of his body. Or did they just keep him away from mirrors and pools of water? I guess Yakomaru must have taught the kid there was something wrong with him because he was different and it was the fault of the humans.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I was thinking in broader terms. Yakomaru seems selfish, ambitious, ungrateful etc., and I wonder to what extent and why. I wonder what makes him tick. He feels like the sort of character who's been kicked around so much that he just doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself, but I'm not exactly sure that's all there is to him.

Squealer has been never kicked around, though, at least from what the reader can tell. Sure, I guess he was never respected until he started spreading his ideas, because he's always been such a little worm, but he always knew how to position himself for maximum gain, and how to talk himself out of trouble. (Like when he was called in front of the committee - everyone knew he was probably lying, but he was talking so well nobody could prove it. )

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

What can I say? Suspicious minds, heh. I tend to always think there's more than we see. Often there isn't. Here, being honest about the past is not the same as being honest about the present situation, especially if he hates Yakomaru. For example, "Yakomaru is just trying to track us," might come over better than "Yakomaru's going to tell you things that will confuse you, and you'll fall for him yet again, so you better not listen to what he has to say, even if it's the truth, because you can't afford to be distracted right now."

I don't know, at that point they would've been idiots to believe a word that Squealer said. I mean when you're trapped but not defenseless, and your enemy comes saying "hello~ come on guys, let's just talk this over, I promise we won't hurt you, so come out~" you usually don't listen.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For Kiroumaru to be a good antithesis to Yakomaru, I wanted him to be someone who would refuse to cross certain lines. One such line is stabbing those in the back that had every reason to consider Kiroumaru a loyal ally (and Kiroumaru himself gave them those reasons). And yet, Kiroumaru's searching of a WMD, and his words about his tribe becoming the dominant species on the planet, does at least raise the question of "Was Kiroumaru willing to stab humanity in the back?" If he was, then the differences between Kiroumaru and Yakomaru become much murkier, imo.

He never said he was doing it because he wanted bakenezumi to be the "dominant species" though? He said he wanted to overthrow humans and put bakenezumi in the position of power if he had a chance, because the existence of humans is a danger to his colony. (In the book he even points out that as far as he's concerned this is not a question of ambition but simply of survival, and his arguments and actions support that he honestly thinks so.)

Again, I think you give too much importance to the whole "loyalty to humans" angle. The humans are perfectly aware that bakenezumi only fear and respect them because of their power. Even children know this. Nobody has any illusions of human-bakenezumi friendship or anything. Saki and Satoru are only surprised to hear what Kiroumaru had been planning because they assumed that being on good terms with humans meant they had no reason to fear humans and plot against them. Being the products of their world, they never tried to see the issue from the other side so this is all new to them.

Kiroumaru wasn't an "ally" of humans (he is now, but only because he has his own reasons to stop Squealer). He was simply the leader of the clan that is the "most loyal" to them.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Still, as you point out, Kiroumaru does seem to value the notion of "paying back debts", which is of some value at least. Yes, it's more than what can be said about Yakomaru.

Nah, Kiroumaru is simply not an asshole in general. Remember, he saved Inui, a "shinigami," too.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But I myself liked the conception of Kiroumaru as this straight-shooting man of his word who would never betray his allies, and hence he is the complete antithesis to the silver-tongued manipulator Yakomaru. But that conception of Kiroumaru takes a real hit if he was willing to sneak attack humanity with a WMD. Here, I wish Kiroumaru's words were a bit less ambiguous. "We'd only use the WMD if you attacked us first." for example, is one line that would have alleviated most of my issues with the latest Kiroumaru reveal.

Oh but that would've been too straightforward, no? And it would've made no sense in context of what we know about the relationship between humans and bakenezumi. (Just think about it, if humans "attack first" there's no bakenezumi left alive to use the WMDs...)

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Though no mirrors though eh? Certainly he could see the rest of his body. Or did they just keep him away from mirrors and pools of water? I guess Yakomaru must have taught the kid there was something wrong with him because he was different and it was the fault of the humans.

For what it's worth, in the book when Satoru hears Saki's idea he immediately dismisses it as pointless. He's pretty much like "Are you insane? This is stupid and you know it." (And then he does it anyway because he doesn't want to kill the kid any more than Saki does.)

[SeijiSensei]

On the theory of using telekinetic molecular agitation to kill by flame, I would think it more likely the target's bodily fluids would reach the boiling point and "cook" the target from the inside out rather than setting the target on fire. I suspect it would be very messy as the target might simply explode rather than being incinerated. I'm being careful in my choice of words here since they can enflame trees just as well as mammals.

[creb]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

On the theory of using telekinetic molecular agitation to kill by flame, I would think it more likely the target's bodily fluids would reach the boiling point and "cook" the target from the inside out rather than setting the target on fire. I suspect it would be very messy as the target might simply explode rather than being incinerated. I'm being careful in my choice of words here since they can enflame trees just as well as mammals.

And, anthrax spores.

The idea of molecular agitation to cause spontaneous combustion is...well, not particularly sound, even if it sounds quaint via a nebulous association with whacking rocks together to create a spark.

One might also argue that anyone able to control individual molecules would have no issues with telomeres, which in my view, are larger objects and potentially easier to manipulate than a bunch of oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen atoms.

It was just an interesting subset of telekinesis that isn't usually a part of said power in most popular fiction. Just wondered if I was missing something from an earlier episode, and yes, I realize as we're talking about telekinesis, we may as well be hand-waving things anyways.

[kk2extreme]

Psychobuster still sounds like a super robot move to me

[NoemiChan]

Why are the squeerats wearing mask? It's appears the boy's escorts are like evil scientist guarding live specimen... I find it corny...

[Gravitas Free Zone]

The masks would be a practical step to take if they know that they're looking for a biological weapon. If the spores are released, they would be protected enough to take action afterward (such as collecting samples).

In the realm of very odd subtitling glitches, Crunchyroll's stream rendered Yakomaru as "Khartoum" and Kiromaru as "Karakorum." Satoru got off lightly and only ended up as "Satori."

[TimeSkip]

The fiend doesn't have greater powers than other villagers, he just doesn't get affected by death feedback.

I still don't understand why there was not a single villager trying to fight the fiend.

Sure, death feedback would kill them, but death feedback does not stop PK users from using their powers on the fiend.

It'd be suicidal but there was a chance that they could get the fiend as well.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

The masks would be a practical step to take if they know that they're looking for a biological weapon. If the spores are released, they would be protected enough to take action afterward (such as collecting samples).

Wait! They knew it was a "biological" weapon? From who?

In what I knew, they only knows that its a weapon that could kill the fiend... but description is not specific.. even Saki's group didn't knew it was in the beginning..

Originally Posted by TimeSkip

I still don't understand why the villagers could fight the fiend.

Cowardice I think...

[Dop]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

In the realm of very odd subtitling glitches, Crunchyroll's stream rendered Yakomaru as "Khartoum" and Kiromaru as "Karakorum." Satoru got off lightly and only ended up as "Satori."

Don't forget "Mamore"...

Seriously WTF?

[Dop]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Wait! They knew it was a "biological" weapon? From who?

Don't forget that Yakomaru's group have a 'false minoshiro' too. They could have learnt about the weapon from that.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Dop

Don't forget "Mamore"...

Seriously WTF?

My only thought is that someone left their spellchecker autocorrect turned on. Or forgot to load all of the Japanese into it first...

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Why are the squeerats wearing mask? It's appears the boy's escorts are like evil scientist guarding live specimen... I find it corny...

Rumor had it that even breathing in the Tokyo air would kill you. Kiroumaru had been there before and knew that to be untrue. But Saki and co seemed to think Tokyo worse than it actually was.

[Silent Wanderer]

Originally Posted by TimeSkip

The fiend doesn't have greater powers than other villagers, he just doesn't get affected by death feedback.

I still don't understand why there was not a single villager trying to fight the fiend.

Sure, death feedback would kill them, but death feedback does not stop PK users from using their powers on the fiend.

It'd be suicidal but there was a chance that they could get the fiend as well.

Your body shuts down before you can actually attack somebody. The only way you can use your Power to kill someone is if you unknowingly did so (and you'd still die afterwards if you found out). Violence against your own species in general is also suppressed, with the Death Feedback (getting sick at the idea of attacking someone, and eventually dying if you persist) mechanism being a failsafe.

Edit: Most people do not know about either of these genetic alterations. A combination of social & genetic engineering makes the idea of attacking another human inconceivable (remember back in episode four when they learned about Boy A? They thought the idea of a human attacking another human was impossible). It's simply not a possibility they can understand, even as an Akki is doing it right in front of them. Akki are an impossibility by their standards. A monster from legends. At least, that is the impression I got.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Dop

Don't forget "Mamore"...

Seriously WTF?

Aaaahh, the poor boy... XDDDD (Protect! Protect, damn you! )

Originally Posted by creb

It was just an interesting subset of telekinesis that isn't usually a part of said power in most popular fiction. Just wondered if I was missing something from an earlier episode, and yes, I realize as we're talking about telekinesis, we may as well be hand-waving things anyways.

Well, you missed the quantum mechanics theory...

Originally Posted by TimeSkip

TSure, death feedback would kill them, but death feedback does not stop PK users from using their powers on the fiend.

It does stop them. When you try to attack someone you recognize as a human your power shuts down - or rather, turns against you and, if you persist, essentially kills you.

As for why akki don't have this reaction, the next episode should mention it.