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Old 2013-03-18, 00:31   Link #1041
GundamZZ
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Her committing suicide is lame. Because she can complete the task by herself. She can send the tree into space if she wants to do it. She sends Hakaze to sleep easily, although it's the trend of plot. Instead, she takes the more difficult route. She uses less capable Mahiro and Yoshino to device her play. Above all, she sees herself as a mere side character in the "play". Even before her death, her only concern is reciting Shakespeare's line. She becomes interested in Yoshino because Yoshino calls her Aika-chan. Their relationship still doesn't make sense. The logic is so manga style. So, Yoshino may doubt Aika's love for him. Yoshino may even doubt Hakaze's love him. Hakaze has to assures him her love for him is not just temporary crash. To help Hakaze, Mahiro and Yoshino turns against Samon. Then, they fights for Samon's cause. The outcome is not economical.
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Old 2013-03-18, 02:03   Link #1042
shmaster
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Aika really didn't plan or device anything. She simply heard the future from Hakaze, which has the result that she desires.
To Aika, she knows that future is guaranteed if she is dead. So, why not? Instead to choose life and bet on a new uncertain future, why not choose something that is already set in the stone? After all, she values her duty over other things in her life.

I won't say she made the best choice, but the choice is certainly consistent to her character.
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Old 2013-03-18, 02:26   Link #1043
Anh_Minh
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Nothing certain about that future. They still have to fight the Tree of Genesis. It's not like they were guaranteed to die if she didn't kill herself, either.
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Old 2013-03-18, 07:59   Link #1044
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamZZ View Post
Her committing suicide is lame. Because she can complete the task by herself. She can send the tree into space if she wants to do it. She sends Hakaze to sleep easily, although it's the trend of plot. Instead, she takes the more difficult route. She uses less capable Mahiro and Yoshino to device her play. Above all, she sees herself as a mere side character in the "play". Even before her death, her only concern is reciting Shakespeare's line. She becomes interested in Yoshino because Yoshino calls her Aika-chan. Their relationship still doesn't make sense. The logic is so manga style. So, Yoshino may doubt Aika's love for him. Yoshino may even doubt Hakaze's love him. Hakaze has to assures him her love for him is not just temporary crash. To help Hakaze, Mahiro and Yoshino turns against Samon. Then, they fights for Samon's cause. The outcome is not economical.
For Aika to end the Genesis Tree herself, she would first have to target its Core...which remained hidden until now.

The current chain of events caused by her death has caused the Core to be revealed.

It is not certain for sure this would have come to pass if she lived.

Should she have tried some other path? Maybe...but would it have worked is much less certain.

Quote:
Nothing certain about that future. They still have to fight the Tree of Genesis. It's not like they were guaranteed to die if she didn't kill herself, either.
Perhaps not...but it is still extremely likely that Genesis Tree would reset civilization and chances of Mahiro and Yoshino not surviving in that case are not low to say the least.

The other course of action may not even result in the chance to fight the Genesis Tree
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Old 2013-03-18, 08:23   Link #1045
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Is there 1 episode left? Or are there two?
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Old 2013-03-19, 04:49   Link #1046
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Originally Posted by LKK View Post
Is there 1 episode left? Or are there two?
24 episodes total, so 2 more to go.
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Old 2013-03-19, 10:59   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
24 episodes total, so 2 more to go.
Good! I was worried about how much they were going to have to cram in if there was only 1 episode left.
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Old 2013-03-19, 11:13   Link #1048
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Nothing certain about that future. They still have to fight the Tree of Genesis. It's not like they were guaranteed to die if she didn't kill herself, either.
Suppose she did go with her original plan and directly informed Hakaze and the Kusaribe clan the truth about the two Trees. How many people would actually believe someone they believed to be their enemy with no empirical evidence that what she says is true? The younger Hakaze would have been headstrong and hellbent on taking down the Tree of Exodus and reviving the Tree of Genesis like she was at the beginning of the series.

The reason why the infighting between Hakaze and the rest of the clan stopped is because Yoshino and Mahiro's intervention gave both sides time to figure out the truth with their own devices.

Between fighting by herself or with very few allies and fighting with two intelligent boys and the entire Kusaribe clan on her side, I think it should be obvious which one gives the world better odds.
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Old 2013-03-19, 11:27   Link #1049
Bern-san
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Originally Posted by LKK View Post
Good! I was worried about how much they were going to have to cram in if there was only 1 episode left.
Chapters 41-43 are about the battle against the Tree of Genesis and according to scans the anime is changing how it's going to be, also if they delete the whole flashback with Yoshino's first meeting with Aika (which takes most of chapter 40) they have less things to adapt.
Basically let's see if Mari Okada messes up the last 2 episodes or not.
At times like this I wish they didn't use episode 13 for a recap.
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:40   Link #1050
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Suppose she did go with her original plan and directly informed Hakaze and the Kusaribe clan the truth about the two Trees. How many people would actually believe someone they believed to be their enemy with no empirical evidence that what she says is true? The younger Hakaze would have been headstrong and hellbent on taking down the Tree of Exodus and reviving the Tree of Genesis like she was at the beginning of the series.

The reason why the infighting between Hakaze and the rest of the clan stopped is because Yoshino and Mahiro's intervention gave both sides time to figure out the truth with their own devices.

Between fighting by herself or with very few allies and fighting with two intelligent boys and the entire Kusaribe clan on her side, I think it should be obvious which one gives the world better odds.
Yup, I agree with this. The future that Hakaze told Aika is just much more promising than if she were to fight the tree of Genesis + Kusaribe clan + hotblooded younger Hakaze by herself. Plus, like Cosmic Eagle said, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the Genesis Core will reveal itself once Aika lived through that night and stray away from Hakaze’s future scenario. No Genesis core = no Genesis busting.
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:27   Link #1051
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
For Aika to end the Genesis Tree herself, she would first have to target its Core...which remained hidden until now.

The current chain of events caused by her death has caused the Core to be revealed.

It is not certain for sure this would have come to pass if she lived.

Should she have tried some other path? Maybe...but would it have worked is much less certain.
Tree
That's not correct. At the time Hakaze went back to tell Aika about the future, the tree of Genesis had not revealed its core. Aika couldn't have known about this from Hakaze.
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:54   Link #1052
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Suppose she did go with her original plan and directly informed Hakaze and the Kusaribe clan the truth about the two Trees. How many people would actually believe someone they believed to be their enemy with no empirical evidence that what she says is true? The younger Hakaze would have been headstrong and hellbent on taking down the Tree of Exodus and reviving the Tree of Genesis like she was at the beginning of the series.

The reason why the infighting between Hakaze and the rest of the clan stopped is because Yoshino and Mahiro's intervention gave both sides time to figure out the truth with their own devices.

Between fighting by herself or with very few allies and fighting with two intelligent boys and the entire Kusaribe clan on her side, I think it should be obvious which one gives the world better odds.
Yeah, the one with Aika in it.

Seriously - in the fight against the Tree of Genesis, the key piece is the Mage of Exodus. Everyone else is a sideshow. So it's a choice between Hanemura and Aika. I say we take the one with guts.

Besides, most of the Kusaribe acted against the Tree before they even learned of Aika's existence. So at worst? They lose Hakaze. A loss which would be more than compensated for by having Aika on board.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:09   Link #1053
Bern-san
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Seriously - in the fight against the Tree of Genesis, the key piece is the Mage of Exodus. Everyone else is a sideshow. So it's a choice between Hanemura and Aika. I say we take the one with guts.
People really underestimate Hanemura, he may be a wimp but in the end he has always done a good work considering he is a back-up Mage.
Even Mahiro right now thinks Hanemura is more than capable of fighting against the Tree of Genesis

Quote:
Besides, most of the Kusaribe acted against the Tree before they even learned of Aika's existence. So at worst? They lose Hakaze. A loss which would be more than compensated for by having Aika on board.
Ok, Aika is clearly more powerful and her power was set to top over Hakaze's power but imagine how Hakaze would fight against Aika with her personality pre-Yoshino and confident on following the Tree's logic.

The main point of Aika's sacrifice though, is that her death guarantees the appearance of the Tree of Genesis' core.
Aika knows that destroying the core is the only way to defeat the Tree, but unless it is revealed we don't know if she could be capable of eradicating the Tree of Genesis even if she is as powerful as she is.

There could be alternatives that might have worked but the quickest way which guarantees the core's appearance is through her death and that's why she decided that was the best plan.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:26   Link #1054
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Bern-san View Post
People really underestimate Hanemura, he may be a wimp but in the end he has always done a good work considering he is a back-up Mage.
Even Mahiro right now thinks Hanemura is more than capable of fighting against the Tree of Genesis
"considering he's a back-up Mage", yeah. But he's being compared to Aika.


Quote:
Ok, Aika is clearly more powerful and her power was set to top over Hakaze's power but imagine how Hakaze would fight against Aika with her personality pre-Yoshino and confident on following the Tree's logic.
That's the problem - we don't know how paradox works. Because if Aika doesn't die... then what happens to Hakaze on her island? Does she even still turn into a skeleton for Samon to collect? (which in the original timeline happened before Aika's death. The turning into bones, I mean. The collection comes after.) Anyway, it's likely pre-Yoshino Hakaze doesn't become an issue. And even if she does, Aika will just have to slap her around. Again.

Quote:
The main point of Aika's sacrifice though, is that her death guarantees the appearance of the Tree of Genesis' core.
Aika knows that destroying the core is the only way to defeat the Tree, but unless it is revealed we don't know if she could be capable of eradicating the Tree of Genesis even if she is as powerful as she is.
If the core doesn't appear then the whole Tree becomes next generation's problem. I don't see a downside, from her POV.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:40   Link #1055
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yeah, the one with Aika in it.

Seriously - in the fight against the Tree of Genesis, the key piece is the Mage of Exodus. Everyone else is a sideshow. So it's a choice between Hanemura and Aika. I say we take the one with guts.

Besides, most of the Kusaribe acted against the Tree before they even learned of Aika's existence. So at worst? They lose Hakaze. A loss which would be more than compensated for by having Aika on board.
Do you remember that they accused Hanemura and doubted him when he first appeared?

I don't know why you would think humans are simple enough to believe everything without proof.

You're also not giving Hakaze enough credit, considering she is the one who awakened all the Exodus Tree fruits so the Mage of Exodus can use his/her full power. Do you honestly think this is a solo effort after everything the characters have experienced?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If the core doesn't appear then the whole Tree becomes next generation's problem. I don't see a downside, from her POV.
I don't think Aika would like having Mahiro or Yoshino's children die either.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:51   Link #1056
Bern-san
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
"considering he's a back-up Mage", yeah. But he's being compared to Aika.
It's tough being compared to Aika but at least he's capable of destroying the Tree of Genesis

Quote:
That's the problem - we don't know how paradox works. Because if Aika doesn't die... then what happens to Hakaze on her island? Does she even still turn into a skeleton for Samon to collect? (which in the original timeline happened before Aika's death. The turning into bones, I mean. The collection comes after.) Anyway, it's likely pre-Yoshino Hakaze doesn't become an issue. And even if she does, Aika will just have to slap her around. Again.
Hakaze has logic on her favor so she would survive her stay in the island and would find a way of returning.

We don't really know how things could play with Hakaze as a threat although Aika could win against her in a fight. Hakaze was a very proud person and only the tragedies and love changed her.

Quote:
If the core doesn't appear then the whole Tree becomes next generation's problem. I don't see a downside, from her POV.
But she did see it as a downside, after all she said that she does it for Yoshino and Mahiro so there was a risk of the world ending during their generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA
I don't think Aika would like having Mahiro or Yoshino's and her children die either.
Fixed
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Old 2013-03-19, 19:02   Link #1057
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I thought the main reason Aika did what she did was in order to secure Yoshino's and Mahiro's survival. If she survived, there is no guarantee of their survival, since the Tree of Genesis might find a way to kill them. At least with the current path, they have survived. I thought that was the underlying, most important reason for her.
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Old 2013-03-19, 20:51   Link #1058
Shadow5YA
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It is, but for some reason people think Aika has a better chance solo.
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Old 2013-03-20, 15:24   Link #1059
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Do you remember that they accused Hanemura and doubted him when he first appeared?

I don't know why you would think humans are simple enough to believe everything without proof.
1- She wouldn't have to convince them of much had already arrived at the conclusion that the Tree was bad news without ever hearing of her. And once Evangeline had been given the same facts, she eventually arrived at a conclusion that was very close to Aika's story.
2- It doesn't matter. The Kusaribe magic is unusable near the tree, the government weapons just feed it (not that they have the government's cooperation now), and Aika's strong enough to just punch through whatever blockade the world powers put in her way. The Kusaribe and Evangeline's friends may be useful for the secondary objective of killing the tree without human bloodshed, but that's about it.

That's why I said the real choice was between Hanemura and Aika. Whatever allies they each would have don't count.

Quote:
You're also not giving Hakaze enough credit, considering she is the one who awakened all the Exodus Tree fruits so the Mage of Exodus can use his/her full power.
She helped train Hanemura. Did Aika look like she needed that sort of training? As for the fruits - it's just the natural process of both Trees' awakening. She isn't precisely necessary.

Quote:
Do you honestly think this is a solo effort after everything the characters have experienced?
They seem to think so. It's the Mage of Exodus' job to kill the Tree. All the others can do is help get him there.

Quote:
I don't think Aika would like having Mahiro or Yoshino's children die either.
Then the best thing she can do is oversee the Tree of Genesis' destruction herself. Failing that, train her successor, if she can. Killing herself and leaving it to Hanemura is one of the worst options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern-san View Post
It's tough being compared to Aika but at least he's capable of destroying the Tree of Genesis
He's capable of destroying defenseless saplings.

Quote:
Hakaze has logic on her favor so she would survive her stay in the island and would find a way of returning.
She didn't in the original timeline. Not until Yoshino pointed one out to her. And even she does, so what? (But really, the paradox thing... if Aika doesn't kill herself, what would happen? Aika had to travel in time twice to meet her.)

Quote:
We don't really know how things could play with Hakaze as a threat although Aika could win against her in a fight. Hakaze was a very proud person and only the tragedies and love changed her.


But she did see it as a downside, after all she said that she does it for Yoshino and Mahiro so there was a risk of the world ending during their generation.
There's plenty of danger without her around. After all, they now have to face the Tree of Genesis without her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
I thought the main reason Aika did what she did was in order to secure Yoshino's and Mahiro's survival. If she survived, there is no guarantee of their survival, since the Tree of Genesis might find a way to kill them. At least with the current path, they have survived.
So far. Let's say you're on a plane with your loved ones. The plane is on fire. So you push them out as fast as you can, without even trying to find parachutes for them. Can you really say you've saved their lives?

Quote:
I thought that was the underlying, most important reason for her.
Yeah. But as I said, short-sighted.
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Old 2013-03-21, 07:34   Link #1060
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So far. Let's say you're on a plane with your loved ones. The plane is on fire. So you push them out as fast as you can, without even trying to find parachutes for them. Can you really say you've saved their lives?
If someone from the future told you that because you pushed them out as fast as you can, they survived. This person also knows your secrets most people are unware of.

Now, on the burning plane, will you push them?

1. Yes
2. No

Well, on the other hand, not boarding the plane in the first place will be a better alternative.
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