2013-07-26, 18:37 | Link #101 |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
|
Tsubasa was one my least favourite characters after watching Bakemonogatari. "Least favourite" doesn't mean I disliked her, more like she didn't really leave much of an impression, at least compared to the others (Senjougahara fascination was still strong back then).
Reading Kizumonogatari and Neko Shiro made me really like her more as a character. Especially Nekomonogatari. Spoiler for Nekomonogatari Shiro epilogue:
__________________
|
2013-07-26, 20:05 | Link #102 | |
Banned
|
Quote:
|
|
2013-07-27, 01:50 | Link #103 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Visual Dream Panire
|
Quote:
Well, until now, only the cat has been directly doing so, the tiger is only what we could say, a "Normal oddity" of hers. Yes, it is a bit more interesting to see a person being possessed by two different oddities, but her personality and presentation are just boring. xD |
|
2013-07-27, 02:30 | Link #104 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2013-08-04, 00:08 | Link #106 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
So yeah, now that the ep aired... We have direct confirmation that Hanekawa isn't "boring", she just was an incomplete humanbeing. And that she got her full self back at the end.
__________________
|
2013-08-05, 14:08 | Link #108 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
The point is it was easy to demand better treatment. She just had to ask. And friend zoning? You do realise that Araragi has a girlfriend right?
__________________
|
|
2013-08-06, 04:35 | Link #109 | ||
maybenotimome
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Quote:
guess it'll take kizu airing (wonder when..) for people to finally realize all the story they should have really aired it before the second season Quote:
but some others just refuse to empatize with some characters they decided for themselfes they don't like |
||
2013-08-06, 04:54 | Link #110 | |
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
|
Quote:
Agreeing with Malkuth doesn't count. He is a shipper, so he might not have been all that objective.
__________________
|
|
2013-08-06, 06:20 | Link #111 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Araragi could have ended up with any character if the author wanted so. The character he ended up with (Senjougahara) is arguably not really better suited as his girlfriend than her major rival (Hanekawa, or Shinobu according to some people) is. However, I think people are having the wrong perspective on the matter. The first season of Monogatari is not actually about Araragi and a girl, Senjougahara, getting together. That is, it is not about their love story, which is merely an incipit, a plot device. The real plot of Monogatari was about Araragi and Hanekawa NOT getting together. Senjougahara, as joked by Nisio, is a heroine in name only. The one actually driving the plot behind the scenes was always Hanekawa, and as such she got featured as a main character in three books beside Tsubasa Cat. The final novel of the first season, Neko Black, has Araragi getting taught how to love by Hanekawa right before he met Senjougahara, making all that happened in Bake a wave caused by Hanekawa.
Hanekawa is not destined to end up with Araragi, she is supposed to be victim of a bittersweet NTR all the time, because this is the plot of the first season of Monogatari. In the end her character development could only end on this point. The point of Hanekawa is to be a tragic character. All we are supposed to do is to feel compassion for her. People who can't see this miss the point of the story. |
2013-08-06, 09:09 | Link #112 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
We could say, she is a plotter caught in her own plot.
Or maybe one of the reasons is that she chose to willingly forget that which she doesnt like. In the process she willingly avoided the flags that were given to her. One such example is the moment when Tsukihi by herself tells her about the advice Araragi sought of them. Its in this moment when she understands that if she wants to live a more normal life she must stop. |
2013-08-07, 02:17 | Link #113 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
I disagree that Bakemonogatari story was mainly driven by Hanekawa. It's true that she was one of the reason why Araragi became this way. But besides of her arc, I just couldn't see how the story of Bakemonogatari had that much impact from her. I'd say that you can see it both ways. If the story was about how Araragi didn't get together with Hanekawa then it could also be said that it was the story about how Araragi could get together with Senjougahara. It may be true that Hanekawa caused Araragi to know about love. But if Senjougahara didn't approach him then his knowing about love would never go anyway. Judging from his personality, he would become just another harem leader which was unable to resolve with any girls around him. And it could easily take forever (if possible) for Hanekawa, at that time, to confess to Araragi.
__________________
|
2013-08-07, 07:16 | Link #114 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
The climax of the two Bake books is about how the love story of Araragi and Senjougahara affected Hanekawa. This is different from the standard story structure where the two leads get together at the end of the book. Here Senjougahara and Araragi got together almost immediately, because that was needed as a setup to reveal the rest of the story. This is the difference between plot and story. The plot of Bake starts with Araragi meeting Senjougahara. The story of Bake is Araragi and Hanekawa not getting together. They got acquainted and shared many supernatural adventures, but they didn't end up as a couple. Bake was basically the end of the story. Kizu was the start, Neko Black the inbetween, and Nise the epilogue. Except that of course the story continued even after Nise, and that's why Nisio had to bring forth a new set of characters for the other seasons. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2013-08-07, 21:48 | Link #115 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
|
Quote:
So if the reader/viewer perceives Hitagi as a larger driving-force of the first act (season) than she really is, it's not entirely by accident either. If you were to retell the whole story in chronological order, it'd take a whole different flavour on the whole... but that isn't the way it was told, and I don't think that was by accident. This isn't trying to contest your overall argument that the first act/season is really more about a door being closed than the one that was opened.
__________________
|
|
2013-08-08, 04:15 | Link #116 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
This aside though, I wanted people to understand that Hanekawa is a character you have to deal with, so if you manage to empathize with her you may enjoy the story better. The author likely wanted you to think "I wish Araragi dated Hanekawa instead" at one point or another. (Though this is different from actually wanting Araragi and Hanekawa together. It's like in Oscar Wilde's aphorism: "This suspense is terrible. I hope it will last") |
|
2013-08-08, 04:28 | Link #117 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
The author made it clear that Araragi is a horny boy who, despite his loyalty to the girl he is dating, still involuntarily say and do things by instinct. Mayoi is just a more blatant case of it, but in general Araragi stays horny with all the girls he hangs around with.
He has declared that he can't be Hanekawa's boyfriend. But paradoxically he never stops being attracted to her body and still fantasies doing lewd things to her even in recent books. The perplexing thing is that if he truly wants to have sex with her he could have. All the more clear that Araragi keeps his "love" and his "lust" in entirely separate parts of his brain, and they don't mingle. This is more appropriate for the Araragi thread. But I find it enduring that Araragi was able to reject a woman he has such strong physical attractions towards. A case of the mind over-rulling the body.
__________________
|
2013-08-09, 06:55 | Link #118 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
Yep. I agree that if the story was told in different order then it could totally change the impression of viewers (still prefer Kissshot over Hanekawa though). But even so, I don't think that I would take it as a fact that Bake story is all about Hanekawa. It's because no Senjougahara = no Bake story. In a sense, you could select x girl here to replace Senjougahara as Araragi's girlfriend and the story would continue from that point. Or else there is no continuing to the story in a Bake perspective. Araragi had girlfriend helped progressing the story and also triggered many events. It was not all about Hanekawa's stress and jealousy.
I really like the ending of Neko Shiro when she asked her parent for her room. If she was able to do that from the start then her life would be easier than this. Hanekawa could easily take Araragi as her boyfriend if she could just ask him. But that would never happen due to her character. There is no helping it because her character was developed this way. It doesn't have to be Senjougahara. My point is that Araragi needs an aggressive girl to approach him because he is such an M character. If other new girls just do the waiting and hoping for him to confess to her first then I'm not sure how many volume it takes to reach that point.
__________________
|
2013-08-10, 12:59 | Link #119 | ||||
maybenotimome
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Quote:
in the first one it was the almost always present careful detachment she had, and the rare times she broke out of those, or got distracted/taken by surprise the careful detachment was like she was always planning each single little action she was going to do, it could be said her being too much brainy about every little thing Spoiler for kizu:
in the second season, seeing it from her point of view, it was the continuous anxiety and grief, with a bit of determination and hope(only in the last part) to take care of herself, and the actual spiteful remarks she was always thinking but that in the previous season it was all unsaid and only hinted perfectionist characters are interesting for me, cause (if they're well shaped up) there is always a screw backdoor for them to drop all their imperfections in, that makes them generally mysterious characters, and i like mysterious characters Quote:
intuition to be able to see the obvious foreshadowing/hype of hanekawa's role and influence, it was visible from the first time she got introduced in the story, and later with the prequels and sequels that intuition got confirmed empathy, to try to feel the strange/unusual state of mind she was in, and don't just skip over like some looked to have done by their comments (not here specifically) when i got both the feel(or intuition if you like) there was foreshadowing/hype and also saw the character had an odd/unusual state of mind i got curious and payed more attention to any occurrence she had in the story someone skipping over would miss all this, ironically cause they avert their eyes like the theme of the story of hanekawa Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler for kizu:
Last edited by zeando; 2013-08-10 at 15:11. |
||||
2013-08-10, 14:12 | Link #120 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well, that was a paradoxical view anyway, but I hope I have made people think about the importance of Hanekawa more seriously. Quote:
This part was a typical Nisio anticlimax, actually. In Neko Black Araragi assumes Hanekawa having no room to be the epitome of child abuse, while in Neko White we learn that Hanekawa just had a pervasive self-sufficient attitude, which is what ultimately costed her Araragi. |
|||||
Tags |
characters |
|
|