2013-11-28, 16:45 | Link #33381 | |
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No one will mistakenly confirm a death, even those other than myself. Which is true because an accomplice always confirms the culprits death. Maria-chan couldn't kill anyone. Also true. George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though. This is contradicts Rosatrice but as far as Shkanon goes it's true. |
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2013-11-28, 17:14 | Link #33382 | ||
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Anything that isn't denied by red can have varieties, until it don't contradict human posibilities. Shkanon can't even solve the puzzle with the red truth. Quote:
EP4 ending: Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you. And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. - Who am I? - You are Beatrice! XD If you have any problems with the red truth in Rosatrice, I'm open to discuss it. Shannon is dead in the 6 clossed murder room, and CANNOT kill dr. Nanjo. Kanon is dead in the 6 clossed murder room, and CANNOT kill dr. Nanjo. In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human. She is definitely dead. and she CANNOT kill dr. Nanjo This theory is false. |
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2013-11-28, 17:21 | Link #33383 |
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We do have issues with it, please go trough each of the bullets renall did in great detail. If you cant even attempt it then you aren't arguing in good faith and I dont think anyone will take you seriously.
The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You claim that Rosatrice is right, then prove it by making an actually coherent theory instead of making an appeal to authority on KnowNoMore (which is pretty bad imo) vvv Ah yes another argument to authority and then an argument to ignorance! You are good at making fallacies! Anyways see ya! Someone please tell me if he actually does put a little effort into making a coherent theory instead of regurgitating Knownomores. Thats if you guys dont add him to your ignore list as well. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2013-11-28 at 17:39. |
2013-11-28, 17:32 | Link #33384 |
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Cao Ni Ma, as I said before, everything is in the video, and will be soon on wikia. There no red truth conflicting with it. I can just proclame:
Rosatrice has no red truth contradiction. You may try proclame the same, but with your theory. It will no stand the game 3 and 5. Your suspect(s) is(are) DEAD. And guess by who <3 I don't have to prove anything to you. Believe in Sakutarotrice. Who cares? I came here for my reasons. I was here for EP3, where all 3 culprits you name are dead. I didn't even need to start game 5. Game over for me. Thank you for the few pages you wrote and the time you spend on me. |
2013-11-28, 17:40 | Link #33385 | ||
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2013-11-28, 19:17 | Link #33387 | |||
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Of course a happy fantasy can be shared and others can agree it's a happy fantasy. But in the Golden Land's case the fantasy is way too convenient for Yasu and it's not shared but forced on the others around her. Honestly I believe Maria's death in Ep 3 is more about Maria being against Yasu killing her mother and failing to believe it'll be okay to meet her again in the Golden Land than parting the two who're close. In Our Confession it's said it wouldn't have been necessary to kill both... but if Maria rebelled and threatened to say what she know, rejecting the idea that 'Shannon was possessed by Beato', things could have started going wrong for Yasu. Quote:
Although it could be interesting if Yasu really gave them a test of some sort and depending to how they were to solve it she would have decided what to do. Ryukishi said in Ep 2 Shannon might have questioned George and not have liked his answers... so it's possible she questioned Jessica and George in EP 4 as well. On a sidenote... I've been trying to read the Rosatrice theory now that's it's written... either it's not being explained well or it's worse than I thought. |
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2013-11-28, 19:53 | Link #33388 | |
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Still, even taking into account the clumsily written wiki page, I don't believe that KnM ever managed to come up with an explanation for the motives for Rosa, George and Nanjo that wasn't absolute rubbish, so I don't think the wiki writer can be blamed for that. |
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2013-11-28, 20:05 | Link #33389 | |
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Bah, I'll try to re-read it when it'll be better written. |
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2013-11-28, 21:16 | Link #33390 |
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I think Rosatrice sortof makes sense in Turn and Banquet, but completely fails in every other episode. Rosa really just doesn't get enough attention to be the culprit.
edit - Challenge: Come up with a theory in which Nanjo is not an accomplice |
2013-11-28, 23:03 | Link #33391 | |
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2013-11-29, 01:26 | Link #33392 | ||
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Also it'd be weird considering how Rosa seems to be actually pained by Maria's contact with Beatrice...for Rosatrice we'd need an actual medical condition like split personality... Quote:
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2013-11-29, 01:34 | Link #33393 | ||||
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Hey guys, I'm back from making the world record of longest hiatus ever. You'll see it on the Guinness book soon. Anyway, I didn't come back without bringing anything substantial but I'll talk about that in a bit.
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These are the worst ones as far as my opinion goes. It seems like this plays on people's tendency to connect coincidences together to formulate a connection that isn't there. Quote:
The first theory is that the reunion was a planned mystery game by the adults to either entertain the kids and/or celebrate Battler's return to the family. It was hinted at in EP 2 when they were talking about celebrating Halloween and how the first murder was done with a Halloween theme. You can clearly see it in all games with the demonic symbols and gory murders. This puts into question the reactions and statements of the adults, servants, and possibly Jessica and George if you assume they knew about it. It could be that they were acting during certain times and some of their statements might not be truthful. If this be the case then it would explain certain reactions such as characters doing things that are not normal for their personality. This really isn't meant to address larger issues such as Shkannon/Yasu but rather a reaction to the idea that the family members have no reason to kill each other. That piece of blue can be supported by EP 8 where the family was happy during the party which shows that, unlike how the previous games showed, they were a very close family. So, without a substantial reason, the family wouldn't kill each other outright if not forced into doing so. Now, to explain who or what could force them, that's simple. Our Confession pretty much gives that answer. However, it's hard to reason out why Beatrice/Yasu would want to murder the family if not by the idea that she is mentally unstable. This is pretty much a given if you assume that she suffered brain trauma during her fall as a baby or is suffering through the emotional trauma of her life. It is possible that she has a number of mental issues, possibly depression, repressed anger and sadness, MPD, and has a hard time differing reality from her own delusions. So, her motive for the matters are probably the result of a skewered vision of reality, morality, and the value of life. So, jjblue, what you say about the Golden Land being a forced fantasy could be the result of Yasu having a delusional belief that the Golden Land actually exists. Or it may be her simply stating that she's doing everyone a favor by killing them, taking them to a better place in the afterlife. Sadly, the theory of her mental instability isn't really strict in interpretation and can have multiple reasons for why Beatrice would do something. By the way, this is generally the same as the Final Culprit Theory made by Kylon. The major difference is that her brain injury is a major but not initial cause of her mental state since she had suffered it as a child and wouldn't have an identity for us to speak about.
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Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2013-11-29 at 01:47. |
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2013-11-29, 17:39 | Link #33394 | ||
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The biggest issue for me with any other theory is that it's clear what theory was intended and the themes of the work, flawed as they may be in execution, clearly array themselves around that particular theory. Believing there is some "hidden answer" requires the work to be reinterpreted thematically, and it never stands up to that. So either there is no hidden answer, or the hidden answer dispenses with the themes of the story... in which case those themes are pointless, and so is the work. Why bother, then?
Additionally, a lot of these theories are reliant upon ambiguous or mistranslated red text. By this I don't mean that Witch Hunt got it wrong, but rather that the translation choices for the sentences they chose at the times that they did were slightly off from the way they "should" have been phrased in English given what we now know about the stories. For example, the ep3 red should probably be "Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are all dead!" to remove the ambiguity of the counter that doesn't have an appropriate English analogue. It still has the "death isn't death" cheat but that's endemic to the work. A few other reds where events are referred to that don't happen (corpse only refers to actual corpses, the letter) are fine, the problem is mostly the translation making statements out to be more definitive than they were intended. Erika's additional analysis of ep5 and ep6 in the ep8 manga make this pretty clear. Quote:
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It's basically a pseudo-atheistic argument where the only "heaven" is conjured up by the living in the memory of the dead, so they behave as the living want and the living obviously can never join them there (if Ange dies, the fantasy of her memory dies with her unless it's shared)*. Of course then the work sort of casts an ambiguous light on the actual existence of witches, but let's not worry about that because it's obvious sequel-baiting and declaring that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta actually don't exist would obviously interfere with them showing up when Something Else Cries. --- * This is actually one of the thematic issues that were just sort of tangential to ep8 that I thought was pretty interesting and covered in greater detail in Redaction. If KNM's work is a long attempt to provide a different answer to Umineko factually, mine is an even longer and more pretentious attempt to challenge it thematically. This is why I try to stay out of discussions of Rosatrice anymore.
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2013-11-29, 18:05 | Link #33395 | ||||||||
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If we've to believe one random character about who's the culprit, of course let's pick up the less believable one. Geez, at this point, if I've to believe what a fantasy says, I can as well believe at Beatrice. Quote:
money problems discord between siblings deeply rooted in their past Kinzo's death being hidden, which was a definite source of strain for Krauss and Natsuhi Some siblings being prone at violent attacking each other Instability of Rosa but likely, in a more subtle, tamer way, of Eva also Kyrie and Rudolf's weak coscience Also, although hinted way more vaguely, there could have been discord even between the cousins. Now, all this doesn't necessarily have to cause someone to go on a murdering rampage in cold blood, and honestly I feel that EP 7 teaparty was way too strained to be believable, but it can lead to some accidents that might lead to others accidents in a sort of rock rolling down of a mountain and ending up creating an avalanche. So it's possible the guys went there without planning to murder anyone but then something happened and things took a turn for worse. Also Ryukishi clearly hinted that in Prime the adults did something. Quote:
So I'm more prone to think that Yasu only killed on the gameboard and, at best, she might have set up the conditions for the others to start killing, but didn't do the murders herself. Though we know so little about Prime that's hard to figure what really happened. Quote:
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Ange said something about herself too having died in 1986, if I'm not wrong, referring merely to how her life had been destroyed by the tragedy, and not to her physical death. In a way Umineko resembles Star Wars: "Luke, Darth Vader killed your father!" "Wait, Vader told me he's my father!" "Well, what I meant is his dark side, which we'll conveniently call Darth Vader, killed his good side, which we'll conveniently call your father, so I didn't lie, I just told you something in a way that would surely mislead you but that according to my interpretation was technically correct." "...." Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-11-29 at 18:22. |
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2013-11-29, 21:38 | Link #33396 |
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Rosatrice is trying to make Rosa the gameboard culprit and the R-Prime culprit, right? I don't think she works very well for either. Under Rosatrice is it her writing the message bottles? If she is, why?
Incidentally, if there is an R-Prime culprit (which there may not be), I'm pretty sure it's Kyrie. We obviously don't have any real evidence, but all the data points we do have suggests that she is the one with the most plausible motivation and the best ability to do it (in addition to the obvious point about Eva). Motive wise: - She was raised to be a pitiless mafia leader - She ran her business ruthlessly - She is generally depicted as cold and calculating - She once resolved to kill a largely innocent woman in order to get what she wanted - There is an unbelievably terrible secret being kept from her, and learning it would probably cause her to snap Ability wise: - She almost certainly knew about Yasu's scheme, due to the fact that Yasu sent money to her house after the incident (she'd need her co-operation in order to leave Ange at home) - She is generally presented as an extremely intelligent character, possibly the most intelligent on the entire island. This means she could easily have subverted Yasu's plan - She was highly experienced in the use of firearms It also works reasonably well thematically - if Battler had stayed around and gotten to know Kyrie as family, her anguish at learning Rudolf's secret may not have been as great. Also, Battler's return was probably what prompted Rudolf to reveal the secret, meaning that Battler coming back was what caused the murders. So basically any other R-Prime culprit theory needs to try and at least match up to this amount of evidence. All of this stuff is fairly obvious, but I don't think we were given any real cause to challenge it in the later episodes (other than theories about no-one really being responsible). Last edited by Leafsnail; 2013-11-30 at 08:45. |
2013-11-30, 02:22 | Link #33397 | |
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And those theories(or the story that Meta-Battler pushed)was meant for Ange to move forward. Bernkastel revealed the 'truth' in the 7th game, and Aurora confirmed that truth exists within the Single Book. |
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2013-11-30, 10:37 | Link #33399 | |
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Of course, one side happens to be correct about the author's clear intent for the work, and correct that the work is character-centric. We're given the character, so we've got to make sense of it. "Attempting to explain the character away as somebody else despite no obvious factual connection between the two" is not really "making sense of it."
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2013-11-30, 14:10 | Link #33400 | |
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Also, the killer lacks an exit strategy. Whatever else happens, the next day will have the killer one of the few (only?) people left on the island. Any such person is naturally going to fall under suspicion. Sure, Hideyoshi might have reason to kill Rudolf (to pull two names out of a hat), but why would he do such a crime on Rokkenjima? Why not do it off the island, where the suspect pool is way larger?
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