Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

I just wanted to post this here. Some guy made a very critical review of the series, and I admit that some of the points are legit. What say you on them, since you guys really enjoy the show?

http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...069&attid=7858

Ah roriconfan... He was notable for his "controversial" takes on shows. He even posted here on this very thread back when the show had aired. Can't say I tend to agree with him even if he does manage to bring up a few good points from time to time.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

I just wanted to post this here. Some guy made a very critical review of the series, and I admit that some of the points are legit. What say you on them, since you guys really enjoy the show?

http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...069&attid=7858

Here, let me sum up his review: Sailor Moon > Madoka. Oh and Princess Tutu gets name dropped.

Roriconfan posted here during the airing of the show, clearly disliking it. The problem was that his "reviews" demonstrated that he hadn't actually watched the show (or very much of it). I'd imagine by this point he probably has, but his opinions were formed before then and it shows in his review style.

You'll never convince someone like him that it is possible that people can like something different or in tandem with the things he likes. Madoka is a fantastic show. You can point to other great shows, like Sailor Moon, Nanoha, or Princess Tutu, but Madoka is different enough to stand on its own. It's not exactly the second coming of Evangelion (but if it felt like that to anyone, good for them!), but it has definitely made a mark on the industry/community and has been an influence on anime after it.

You can take pretty much anything and pick it apart, but I question reviewers that do only that. Those kind of reviews tend to feel as if the person writing them has no joy left in their hearts.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Solace

It's not exactly the second coming of Evangelion (but if it felt like that to anyone, good for them!), but it has definitely made a mark on the industry/community and has been an influence on anime after it.

I've watched both Madoka and Evangelion. While I agree that Evangelion is one of the best shows in existance, I like Madoka even more

[bhl88]

Reminds me of the:

Nanoha: *Fate whipping scene*
Carl: Whipping, loli fetish. C-

[Suomi]

I finally got around to watching this show and I've got to say, it was fantastic but also heart-wrenching. I seem to have a thing for despair anime... (also a Shingeki no Kyojin and Danganronpa fan)
I really liked the character development of Homura, and even though the whole ending business was sad I could also appreciate it from a plot standpoint.
I need to watch the movies now and cry even more...

[LightDragonman]

It's that kind of show after all. XD

Speaking of which, would you guys agree that Madoka and Titan are currently the most popular and critically acclaimed anime of the New Tens so far?

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

Speaking of which, would you guys agree that Madoka and Titan are currently the most popular and critically acclaimed anime of the New Tens so far?

They're certainly up there, yes. And I can't really think of any other shows that have come out lately that I've found as compelling to watch as those two.

And about that, for the longest time I had a slight aversion to watching Attack on Titan because it seemed a bit too... oppressive, I guess? Then I realized that "Wait. MY FAVORITE ANIME IS FREAKING MADOKA." and thus that aversion made absolutely no sense since Madoka is also after all negative as hell. And then I went to watch Attack on Titan. This was like three weeks ago. I have now finished the whole anime and read the manga up to chapter 50. Obviously the series did not disappoint.

[Julio C]

For those that watched the third movie, do you guys actually liked it? No spoilers, I just want to know if it didn't ruined the series or not.

I'm going to blind buy the LE BD, and I hope I actually like the movie.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Julio C

For those that watched the third movie, do you guys actually liked it? No spoilers, I just want to know if it didn't ruined the series or not.

I'm going to blind buy the LE BD, and I hope I actually like the movie.

I personally really liked personally, though I know some others haven't.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Julio C

For those that watched the third movie, do you guys actually liked it? No spoilers, I just want to know if it didn't ruined the series or not.

I'm going to blind buy the LE BD, and I hope I actually like the movie.

It's... highly divisive, is the best way to put it. Some adore it, others find it completely disgusting. Personally, I find that even just as an individual I'm extremely divided on the movie, in that on one hand, I think it has plenty of really great moments, an overall intriguing plot (albeit the pacing does feel slower than it needs to be and I feel like there's just way too much of Shinbo's beloved trippy imagery in it) not to mention the presentation is excellent, with plenty of great visuals and Yuki Kajiura's soundtrack being as good as ever. And heck, I even liked ClariS's opening. Every other song I've heard of theirs I've been completely indifferent to. And yet, in spite of all this... I hate this movie, and personally I feel that yes, it did almost ruin the series for me... That said, I know there are many who would disagree with me on that, and actually feel the movie is a more than worthy followup to the series that expands on its themes perfectly. So honestly, it's kind of impossible to say whether you'd like it or not. It's something you really have to just see for yourself and make up your own mind on.

[Libros]

So is this movie a bit like End of Evangelion in that it was very divisive to Evangelion fans?

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Julio C

For those that watched the third movie, do you guys actually liked it? No spoilers, I just want to know if it didn't ruined the series or not.

I'm going to blind buy the LE BD, and I hope I actually like the movie.

I love it, and feel that it is a worthy sequel to a legendary series. The movie is not afraid to go to unexplored territory. I understand why many fans don't like it. When I saw it for the first time, I had conflicted feelings about it as well. But having seen it repeatedly, I now understand the plot developments better. I now consider the developments in the movie well-foreshadowed and consistent with the themes in the TV series. This is a movie that will make an impression and require a lot of soul searching on the part of the viewer. I can't wait for more Madoka.

There is no question about the production quality. The visuals are on par with the best in the industry. The voice acting and musical score are as good as ever. The ending theme is simply glorious.

[Julio C]

Thanks for the replies. I feel a bit more confident in blind buying this. Only about six weeks away then.

I bought the $12 program pamphlet from rightstuf along with the pre-order of the third LE movie.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Libros

So is this movie a bit like End of Evangelion in that it was very divisive to Evangelion fans?

Pretty much.

[Triple_R]

Yeah, I'd agree with the End of Evangelion comparison.

It's not that the movie is bad in any objective or technical proficiency sense, but rather that it's handling of certain characters is controversial and not everybody will be fond of that handling. However, it's not like this handling is unthinkable, horribly OoC, and/or plot hole-ridden. It's just that it'll be discomforting to some much like some of Shinji's actions in EoE was discomforting to some.

Personally, I loved the movie, though I can certainly understand why some would dislike how it handles certain characters.

[LightDragonman]

Personally, I feel that Rebellion was better than End, if only for it not relying completely on the themes to tell the story.

Also, some have had problems with Kyouko in the original series for this reason:

"Now there is just one thing I didn't buy: Kyōko. I could have liked the character − I like her voice to start − but I don't know… from her initial jerk behavior to the exposition of her Freudian Excuse to her gratuitous sacrifice, everything about her seemed awkwardly executed to me. I never managed to feel any sympathy for her. And it's a pity, because I was really sad for Sayaka, but… instead of being shocked at Kyōko's suicide I was just "Err, huh? Why would she do that?" Especially since another timeline showed witch!Sayaka could perfectly be taken down without going to such extreme lengths."

"It is an effect of the short run and heavy emphasis on WHAMs that some characters can feel more device than arc."

I admit, she could have used a bit more development so as to make her sacrifice a bit more believable, but I still think she had a good send off.

What say you? Do you buy her development, or was she just written off so as to leave Homura alone against WPN?

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

Personally, I feel that Rebellion was better than End, if only for it not relying completely on the themes to tell the story.

Well I definitely found it much easier to form a cohesive opinion on Rebellion than End of Eva... actually to this day I still have no idea what to think about the latter. Then again I was never much of an Evangelion-fan to begin with.

...Though I should note that after reading a certain fan-theory on TVTropes that made a freakish amount of sense, my last major issue with Rebellion that prevented me from liking the movie has essentially evaporated. So yeah, as of last week I suddenly no longer hate that movie. I mean, it's hardly perfect, I still found the TV-series to be much better, but on the whole, with that surprisingly logical fan-theory in mind, the movie is actually pretty solid.

[LightDragonman]

Oh, I was surfing TV Tropes, and I noticed that they had this to say on Madoka's YMMV page:

"Unfortunate Implications: Episode 12's complete romanticism of Homura's obsessive, controlling issues towards Madoka being completely thrown out the window and forgiven. (One could argue that since it is Madoka forgiving her specifically, it could be justified a little, but that doesn't excuse the overall writing of the episode, especially given that Episodes 10 and 11 were setting it up as something destructive and problematic, about to blow up in Homura's face. This is probably due to the ending being rewritten to be happier.) And there's also Episode 9's romanticism of Kyouko's stupid "sacrifice", which is really just her committing suicide using Sayaka as an excuse to do so — Sayaka wouldn't wanted Kyouko to kill herself, instead go help Homura defeat Walpurgisnacht, as Sayaka's belief was that all Puella Magi should kill as many witches as they could, which falls into a similar vein."

What say you?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

Oh, I was surfing TV Tropes, and I noticed that they had this to say on Madoka's YMMV page:

"Unfortunate Implications: Episode 12's complete romanticism of Homura's obsessive, controlling issues towards Madoka being completely thrown out the window and forgiven. (One could argue that since it is Madoka forgiving her specifically, it could be justified a little, but that doesn't excuse the overall writing of the episode, especially given that Episodes 10 and 11 were setting it up as something destructive and problematic, about to blow up in Homura's face. This is probably due to the ending being rewritten to be happier.) And there's also Episode 9's romanticism of Kyouko's stupid "sacrifice", which is really just her committing suicide using Sayaka as an excuse to do so — Sayaka wouldn't wanted Kyouko to kill herself, instead go help Homura defeat Walpurgisnacht, as Sayaka's belief was that all Puella Magi should kill as many witches as they could, which falls into a similar vein."

What say you?

TV series Homura is simply acting in accordance with Timeline 3 Madoka's specific request. I don't think that's particularly "controlling". As for "obsessive"... Anime in general often portrays unflappable loyalty and dedication in a positive light. And emotionally, this shouldn't be hard to get. There's something strangely admirable, even touching, about one person willing to give their all for another. I mean, this sort of thing is as old and cherished as romance itself is.

Is it the most pragmatic thing in the world? Is it an enviable position? No, not really, for both questions. But I frankly think that someone has to have a very cold heart to completely fail to appreciate the beauty in a person who will give their all for another.


As for Kyouko's sacrifice - You can care for a person and still disagree with them on one or another philosophical matter. Yes, Sayaka probably would prefer Kyouko to live on to eliminate more witches. But that's not what Kyouko wanted - Not for herself, or for Sayaka. I think that Kyouko had understandably lost the will to soldier on given the dark revelations made to her. Having made peace with the idea of an early death, she decided that she wanted to be there with Sayaka in their final moments.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

Oh, I was surfing TV Tropes, and I noticed that they had this to say on Madoka's YMMV page:

"Unfortunate Implications: Episode 12's complete romanticism of Homura's obsessive, controlling issues towards Madoka being completely thrown out the window and forgiven. (One could argue that since it is Madoka forgiving her specifically, it could be justified a little, but that doesn't excuse the overall writing of the episode, especially given that Episodes 10 and 11 were setting it up as something destructive and problematic, about to blow up in Homura's face. This is probably due to the ending being rewritten to be happier.) And there's also Episode 9's romanticism of Kyouko's stupid "sacrifice", which is really just her committing suicide using Sayaka as an excuse to do so — Sayaka wouldn't wanted Kyouko to kill herself, instead go help Homura defeat Walpurgisnacht, as Sayaka's belief was that all Puella Magi should kill as many witches as they could, which falls into a similar vein."

What say you?

I'll use spoiler tags just in case.

Spoiler for Spoiler for TV series:

I disagree with the Homura part. Homura is doing what Madoka specifically asked her to do in the TV series. Timeline 3 Madoka's request was "please go back to the past to prevent the idiot me from being tricked by QB again." To fulfill that request, it is a given that Homura needs to act against Timeline 5 Madoka's wishes to contract. I can't see how this can be described as "controlling".

As for "obsessive", is that necessarily a bad thing? The other side of the coin is "determined", and what is so wrong about doing everything one can possibly do to fulfill a specific objective? It all depends on if this objective is a noble one or not, and I have to say, Homura's objective in the TV series is undoubtedly a noble one. To fulfill a dying friend's wish to prevent her past self from unknowingly entering into a deal with the devil that will cause the end of the world. We are talking about the end of the world. I struggle to think of a more worthy cause.

I also don't get the feeling that EP10 and 11 set up Homura's motives and actions as destructive. In fact I feel the opposite. Those episodes clearly set up Homura as the true heroine of the story. EP10 justifies everything she said and did from EP1-9. EP11 emphasises the two sides to her character, her gentle, uncertain and fragile side in the hug scene, and her courageous, determined, loyal and anything-goes side in her epic battle.

About Kyoko. I somewhat agree with the assessment that her sacrifice was unncessary. I asked "why couldn't she just kill Oktavia normally?" when I first saw EP9. I think this is not an uncommon reaction, as it is very noticeable that they fixed it in the Eternal Story movie. They added a shot showing Kyoko losing an insane amount of blood to show very clearly that she was in no condition to go on. Ultimately, I think by that point Kyoko simply lost the will to go on. Perhaps she was influenced by her religious family background and genuniely thought that she had a chance to be with Sayaka if she died right there and then.