2014-02-25, 09:25 | Link #1621 | ||
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Sayaka was directly serving a higher power that was also her closest friend in life. She was serving a higher purpose that no doubt gave her a great sense of meaning and fulfillment in her existence. I'm sure there's a part of her that regrets her natural life being cut short at such a young age, but I'm also sure she felt much pride and satisfaction in serving the role she did under Madokami. If offered a free choice between continuing to serve under Madokami, or having a full and normal human life, I think that Sayaka would choose to continue to serve under Madokami. And it wouldn't just be a matter of feeling morally obligated to make that choice, she'd choose it because she'd feel it would give her existence greater drive, purpose, and meaning. It would fulfill her in a way that normal life likely wouldn't. Sayaka is definitely prone to embracing a largely selfless heroism. Taking up the mantle of the hero, and helping others, is much of what makes her happy, I think. Now, I'm not saying that Homura did some grave injustice to Sayaka. Sayaka, with her memories altered, probably is pretty happy and content in Homu-verse. So Homura has made the situation as good as she could for Sayaka (and Nagisa, Mami, Kyouko, etc...), and I respect that. But I don't think Sayaka's happier or more content. I don't see any good reason to think that, other than taking positions that run contrary to Sayaka's established characterization. The best argument for what Homura did is that, yes, it neutralizes the Incubators (an obvious weakness in Madoka's approach). So if you want to support Homura in what she did in this movie, then that's the best argument to go with, in my opinion. Quote:
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2014-02-25, 14:56 | Link #1622 | ||||
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I'll admit that the movie had really good pacing overall, though. Quote:
Madoka's life was basically perfect; she was seriously the last person who should've been approached by Kyubey in the first timeline. As for Sayaka? Even if she shares the same quality of life with Madoka in every respect, she can't have the one thing that defined a lot of her emotional conflict: Kyousuke; but, you know what? The miracle she made for him was worth her entire life and more, to her. When given as objective a viewpoint as possible, everyone being able to hear his music was worth disappearing. Madoka's world protected people's hopes as a first priority, but in Homuverse, there's atleast some reason to believe Homura will mess with people's wishes to give them what she believes is their happiness. As well-intentioned as she is, that's an existential form of rape.
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2014-02-25, 18:03 | Link #1623 | ||
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It's also worth noting that the context of the scene between Madoka, Kyoko, and Mami is left very vague. I've seen some people argue that it's a conversation Madoka's having in her head rather than in the afterlife. Quote:
At the same time, I feel like something has to break down at some point in order to cause Madoka's counter-rebellion, whether it's the law of cycles falling apart without Madoka or magical girls dying rather than being absorbed by her when they give into despair. I agree that there eventually has to be something, but it may not appear for a while.
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2014-02-25, 18:18 | Link #1624 | |
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And while I do think you bring up a good point with Sayaka's heroic self-sacrificing nature, in your hypothetical choice between "continuing to serve under Madokami, or having a full and normal human life," what disadvantage is there to choosing to live a normal life? The Law of Cycles is run via the power of Madoka's wish and all the countless magical girls she's absorbed up to that point in history. Would Sayaka holding off joining Madokami for another 60 years really impact the Law of Cycles? The situation with Homura's soul gem was a very rare case in which Madoka needed her "angels" to help her since Kyubey was trying to trap her. What do the angels do the rest of the time? Just chill in heaven with Madoka and drink tea? Or are their individual consciousness absorbed by Madoka and they all become one conglomerate being of magical girls that's known as the Law of Cycles?
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2014-02-25, 21:35 | Link #1625 | |
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Given that Homura unconditionally keeps Kyosuke's hand healed for Sayaka, it isn't far-fetched to imagine that Sayaka will want to go back to life to fix her other regrets. Namely Kyoko. Being together in life and being together in the afterlife are very different and it isn't greedy to want to experience both. The chance to go back to life from death doesn't come very often. The after life will come sooner or later and can wait. I do admit that there is a lot of speculation involved and your interpretation may well be closer to the truth. I guess we'll find out in the sequel. |
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2014-02-26, 01:13 | Link #1626 | |
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2014-02-26, 01:47 | Link #1627 | |||||||||
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The only reason Sayaka seems to be included, scripturally speaking, is that she has a personal scene with her later on. Did Madoka 'know' that she'd be having one-on-one time with Sayaka, or something? Was she already omniscient (let's not argue about what that means and just say it's whatever perceptions Madokami possesses) when she was having that conversation with Kyouko and Mami? If so what is the qualitative difference? Quote:
Madoka absolutely would not feel the urge to become Madokami again unless she is positive that it is necessary to prevent unfathomable amounts of suffering. Quote:
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But even if we concede that she has those regrets, it doesn't mean she feels it's worth it to satisfy them with the cost involved. Quote:
For the sake of argument, what if Sayaka wasn't present in Rebellion and there was no one to replace her? How badly could things have turned out? Quote:
It's my personal fanon, and I admit it as such, that Madoka's angels not only help her fight witches in an abstract sense (to ensure a certain future, you need to cut the branches off of a tree), but also that they populate a safe world of healing each other's wounds and encouraging the growth they're entitled to as human beings. Basically think Evangelion's Instrumentality without the invasive mind-rape. Quote:
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Dialog does imply that Madokami comes for everyone, though, if only for the sake of poetic language.
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2014-02-26, 03:17 | Link #1628 | ||
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Homuverse is the first time in history where (1) and (2) exist at the same time. Homura brought Sayaka back to life, and kept his hand healed. Madoka would have undone Sayaka's contract to keep Sayaka alive. Homura gave Sayaka both. Sayaka just had a big argument with Homura, aka the god of this universe with no apparent check on her power, that almost resulted in a fight. A lesser person may use Kyosuke's hand as leverage to keep Sayaka in line. Homura didn't, and that's what I meant by unconditionally. I mean, if I were a god of this universe, I can do whatever I like and nobody can oppose me, I am not sure if I will keep in mind the wishes of someone who openly dislikes me, and make sure that such wishes come true. |
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2014-02-26, 16:27 | Link #1629 | |||||
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Madoka had to make the ultimatum she made because she wasn't interfering with Sayaka's free thought, feelings, or actions. Homura did not. She rewrote Sayaka's memories and mind for her own convenience, whether or not Sayaka benefits from it. Sayaka coexists with a healed Kyousuke because Homura violated her. But of course, there's still no guarantee Sayaka's safe either. Quote:
And all the timelines where Sayaka contracted in the moments between that and her inevitable death/Witching out. Seriously, the timeframe for Homuverse is roughly around the time Homura would've otherwise transferred in. Regardless of how sustainable Sayaka's new life is, it wouldn't of reached the point where she'd of hit rock bottom one way or another. Technically Homuverse hasn't trumped any universe as far as Sayaka-happiness goes, yet. That's something it has yet to prove and demonstrate. Quote:
What? Quote:
I am not impressed with Homura's actions because she had a very clear, selfish benefit from them, and she still involved mindrape to do it. It's easy to give people what they want when you can rewrite their minds to be satisfied with what you've given them.
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2014-02-26, 19:55 | Link #1630 | ||
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Obviously, tempering with someone else's memories is very problematic, and I am sure Homura agrees. But, I am not sure what I would have done differently if I were Homura and someone in front of me is summoning a powerful weapon to fight me. Do I unleash my familiars on her? I am a god, so presumably I will win easily. Then what? Kill her? Put her in a dungeon? House arrest? Teleport her to another continent? None of these is nice. Changing part of Sayaka's memories, as far as I see, is at least a peaceful solution that will allow Sayaka to experience happiness, as she herself admitted on-screen. Quote:
What I am saying is that she is no where near as evil as she claims to be. I think there is definitely an intention on her part to make the best out of the situation for her friends, given her decision to kidnap Madoka. She is a god. There is a huge range of options available to her to deal with her "Sayaka problem". If I were Homura, I will consider - a) undoing her contract. This is fair on an "Equivalent Exchange" basis. This is what Madoka would have done to Sayaka if Sayaka chose to live in EP12. Sayaka is back to life, so why not undo her magical girl powers, and put Kyosuke back to the hospital? Just out of spite, for argument's sake. b) if I am worried about Madoka's feelings, then the solution is simple. Write Sayaka out of Madoka's memories so that Sayaka never existed in Madoka's mind. Then teleport Sayaka to Timbuktu or something. Just get her out of my sight. This is someone who plans to overthrow me afterall. c) create an obedient Sayaka clone to fool Madoka. Jail the real one in another continent. I can even give her a nice house to sooth my conscience. Out of all these options, Homura chose the one that will keep Sayaka happy and keep her magical girl wish intact, something that is very important to Sayaka. She is no saint, but it is a lot more than what a normal human would have done for an enemy. Funny, I think Homura will actually agree with you rather than me on your assessment of her |
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2014-02-26, 22:56 | Link #1631 | |||
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If Homura wanted to just disarm her, she could. "Oops, your powers don't work anymore, and I'm omnipotent. Have fun looking like a crazy person if you attempt to stop me, I hold all the cards. Now try and enjoy yourself." No existential rape, but Homura still wins. She did it because, primarily, she doesn't want Sayaka interfering with things. Sayaka's happiness is a side-benefit at best. Quote:
Doesn't change that people are trying to morally justify Homura's actions. Quote:
Or E) Talk to her like a mature person. "Yea, I know, but I can't get closure unless I do this. I'll let Madoka go back when she has a full human life. Do you want me to turn you into Sayakami temporarily to fill the gap, or something? Kyubey's going to keep going after her unless I do something drastic like this." Even if D and E don't work, options F+ probably also exist. You're being pretty short-sighted if the only thing you can think to do with Homura's power is stomp Sayaka under your almighty boot. I don't know what I should take from that, honestly.
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2014-02-26, 23:45 | Link #1632 | |||
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I also don't think Sayaka is the type that can be convinced by talking. Especially not by Homura. The chemistry between the two is bad, to say the least. Again, I have yet to see the details of your options F+. Last edited by Monoriu; 2014-02-27 at 01:37. |
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2014-02-26, 23:48 | Link #1633 | ||||
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And I doubt she'll stand for Homura's world when the truth comes out or it begins to unravel, but Homura has given her a happiness she couldn't have before. Homura didn't have to give the other girls happy lives but she did. As shown in her soul gem world, Homura's ideal scenario is safely being magical girls with all her friends. Quote:
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2014-02-27, 03:38 | Link #1634 | |||||||
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She's functionally omnipotent; she has infinity options until we see otherwise. Quote:
She didn't really try talking to her as I suggested either since she played up the Satan act to GOAD Sayaka into being as upset with her as possible. Quote:
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2014-02-27, 04:43 | Link #1635 | |
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What I am saying is that, yes, it is obnoxious for Homura to change Sayaka's memories. But given that Sayaka plans to fight Homura, I struggle to think of a more gentle or nice way for Homura to keep Sayaka in line. Homura may disarm Sayaka once. But then what? If Homura is not omnipresent, she can't follow Sayaka around 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and clap her hands whenever Sayaka plans to rebel. From the movie, it doesn't seem like Homura had a lot of time to decide what to do with Sayaka. Talks just broke down, Sayaka almost summoned Oktavia. Homura only had a few seconds to react before the fight began. At that point, any form of negotiation is no longer possible. You blame Homura for goading Sayaka into attacking, and that's a fair point. But I think Sayaka also has to share part of the blame for taking the bait. You said Homura should have talked things through with Sayaka. Fair enough, but the same should apply to Sayaka - she should have made a greater effort to talk to Homura as well, instead of summoning Oktavia when she felt like it. I am not sure exactly what Homura did to Sayaka. Sayaka explcitly said that she would never forget that Homura is the devil, and I take her word for it. That to me seems like Homura's changes to Sayaka's memories are not permanent. These changes are probably reversible. The fact that Madoka almost regained kamihood supports this. I rest my case. |
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2014-02-27, 05:32 | Link #1636 | ||
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Madoka is always Homura's first priority. Remember, Homura is a devil so it doesn't surprise me if she places Sayaka's freewill last in her priority order. At least the devil is playing nice, letting Sayaka alive and heal Kyosuke's hands. Quote:
Also, in the movie, Homura mentions that she would take care of the Wraiths herself. I don't see how she can 100% focus on her work and deal with Sayaka's challenge at once. Not that what she does is right, but it's a plausible resolution. |
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2014-02-27, 12:58 | Link #1638 | |
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I hope they explain that in the next TV show/movie, exactly what their role is. Sayaka calls herself Madoka's "personal secretary" but that could mean any number of things (though i like to imagine a huge office building full of magical girls in front of typewriters doing Madokami's paperwork).
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2014-02-27, 16:00 | Link #1640 | ||
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Add that Madoka collects all Magical Girls in time-space before she becomes witches, and that seems to imply she gathers all iterations of a person, not just the "Madoverse" ones. I imagine the previous worlds were destroyed/overwritten because of the paradox this entailed. Quote:
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