(L) Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou [WN]

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

Even if the students want to replicate firearm, I don't think the result will be as effective as Donner. Considering that what Hajime create need direct magic manipulation added with electric manipulation for the railgun power and also some more various little detail so the bullet can be as accurate and penetrative as possible, if a normal student with shallow understanding of firearm try to create some from scratch, the result should be..., well maybe the rifle used by Nobunaga Oda's army at worst and a revolver used by cowboy at best.

And I don't think a normal firearm will be that useful in a fantasy world. A firearm is designed to take down normal human. If you use it in a world where monster with tough defense exist and even the humanoid has defense stats ten times or more than average humans, than a gun is not really a game changer if its not as strong as Hajime's mini railgun. I bet it'd be just like a louder crossbow. Who knows, maybe its even less effective than a bow in range and penetrative power and accuracy considering the archer has more strength to pull the arrow here.

Firearms would increase the combat power of normal infantry (those without combat skills) drastically compared to the bows/crossbows, since they can be used relatively easy without needing much training, and they would increase their number of 'capable' soldiers instantly.

But they will probably be very disappointed after completion when they compare the fire power of their 'normal' guns with what they expected to get after hearing reports of Hajime showering the demon army with bullets.

Edit:

Originally Posted by bludvein

Are you kidding? At the very least a revolver without the electric power is capable of taking out demons of below 50 layer class of the upper dungeon, and it doesn't take any magic to operate. Hajime thinks internally that he could even deal damage to the Behemoth without the railgun, and devils don't seem that durable themselves.

They won't be taking any Hydras with a basic revolver, but it would massively boost the effectiveness of normal troops with limited magic. That's a game changer on a global scale.

Depends on what ore they use, Hajime's bullets at the time were made using the hardest ore available at that floor, which should be superior to what they usually mine on the surface.

[bakapervert]

Originally Posted by bludvein

Are you kidding? At the very least a revolver without the electric power is capable of taking out demons of below 50 layer class of the upper dungeon, and it doesn't take any magic to operate. Hajime thinks internally that he could even deal damage to the Behemoth without the railgun, and devils don't seem that durable.

They won't be taking any Hydras with a basic revolver, but it would massively boost the effectiveness of normal troops with limited magic. That's a game changer on a global scale.

Are they really? When facing Behemoth the first time, even Kouki equipped with high quality holy sword using his strongest skill can't make a scratch. I don't think a normal revolver is stronger than a named skill. Even if the bullet can penetrate, for a monster in behemoth size, the wound will be just like pierced by a needle, and I expect the penetration will not be really deep. Hajime can take out a demon easily without using railgun I expect because he is a very good shot. He can target weak point easily even while moving, and evade monster easily in melee. But for a normal soldier, a revolver doesn't have that much accuracy in range, so even if they have number it will not be easy to take down a monster with a barrage of bullet, and in melee they will be slaughtered considering they can't evade easily and a sword will be more useful anyway in close range fight.

Edit: And in fantasy world, the humanoid is much stronger and faster compared to normal world, so I think it would be harder to aim and killing them. Not to mention the quality of their armor material that need to be able to withstand magic or sword or monster's attack. And this is the world where magic attack is also common, so I guess adding bullet in their list of protection will not be really hard.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

Are they really? When facing Behemoth the first time, even Kouki equipped with high quality holy sword using his strongest skill can't make a scratch. I don't think a normal revolver is stronger than a named skill. Even if the bullet can penetrate, for a monster in behemoth size, the wound will be just like pierced by a needle, and I expect the penetration will not be really deep. Hajime can take out a demon easily without using railgun I expect because he is a very good shot. He can target weak point easily even while moving, and evade monster easily in melee. But for a normal soldier, a revolver doesn't have that much accuracy in range, so even if they have number it will not be easy to take down a monster with a barrage of bullet, and in melee they will be slaughtered considering they can't evade easily and a sword will be more useful anyway in close range fight.

Back then Kouki was a chump with not really impressive stats. His skills gave him a boost, but not that much. They managed to cut it up just fine on their second meeting.

Granted that damaging the Behemoth counted with targeting weak points. It probably wouldn't penetrate far enough in the stronger areas, but then just don't aim at them. Get some average troops together and eventually they would either make it bleed out or get lucky and hit something vital. That's only giving them a worst case scenario and a revolver, if they manage to make a rifle or even a simple cannon then GG.

[bakapervert]

Originally Posted by bludvein

Back then Kouki was a chump with not really impressive stats. His skills gave him a boost, but not that much. They managed to cut it up just fine on their second meeting.

Granted that damaging the Behemoth counted with targeting weak points. It probably wouldn't penetrate in the stronger areas, but then just don't aim at them. Get some average troops together and eventually they would either make it bleed out or get lucky and hit something vital. That's only giving them a worst case scenario and a revolver, if they manage to make a rifle or even a simple cannon then GG.

Checking just now, Kouki's stat at that time is 200. 20 times the strength of normal human. Equipped with high quality holy sword that can weaken the enemy, and also using skill that even its weaker version can wipe out a group of traum soldier easily. I would say that attack should be many times stronger than a normal gunshot. A normal firearm won't even scratch Behemoth or even some other monster below it.

As for cannon, will it be that useful? They can already do magic bombardment in fantasy world.

Well, I'm not saying that a simple firearm would be useless. After all one of main advantage of gun is that its easy to use and even a peasant will be able to use them with little training. Its just that I don't think it will be that much advantage compared to when gun is introduced in our world.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

Checking just now, Kouki's stat at that time is 200. 20 times the strength of normal human. Equipped with high quality holy sword that can weaken the enemy, and also using skill that even its weaker version can wipe out a group of traum soldier easily. I would say that attack should be many times stronger than a normal gunshot. A normal firearm won't even scratch Behemoth or even some other monster below it.

As for cannon, will it be that useful? They can already do magic bombardment in fantasy world.

Well, I'm not saying that a simple firearm would be useless. After all one of main advantage of gun is that its easy to use and even a peasant will be able to use them with little training. Its just that I don't think it will be that much advantage compared to when gun is introduced in our world.

100-200 is the max for a normal human without a class, 300-400 for one with a class. The Devils and non-humans are supposed to range from 300-600 depending on tribe traits. It doesn't matter how good the Holy Sword is if he can't swing it hard enough to cut. A bullet on the other hand isn't dependent on physical ability beyond recoil. That's not even counting the range advantages.

...and that magical bombardment depends on very high level mages, of which there aren't many. Something like a cannon can be fired can be fired by an average Joe and it doesn't run out of fuel and have to rest.

[bakapervert]

Originally Posted by bludvein

100-200 is the max for a human without a class, 300-400 for one with a class. The Devils and non-humans are supposed to range from 300-600 depending on tribe traits. It doesn't matter how good the Holy Sword is if he can't swing it hard enough to cut.

...and that magical bombardment depends on very high level mages. Something like a cannon can be fired can be fired by an average Joe.

A knight in medieval time can swing a sword and slash through chainmail. Kouki should be able to bisect a human wearing full armor with his stat of 200, especially if he use a high quality holy sword, even more if he use a sword skill. A normal handgun or revolver sometimes can't even penetrate a human just wearing normal clothes.

As for cannon, in our world, no matter how good your armor is, the moment you got hit by a bombardment you are finished. In fantasy world, they already have experience with magical bombardment and can even use magic to form barrier for protection from explosion. Its an advantage yeah if you can mass produce cannon, but its not really a game changer. And if human can mass produce cannon, it will not be hard for the devil to stole the design and made their own. And the human has a lot more cannon fodder that is less resistant to explosion compared to the devil and their monster army.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

A knight in medieval time can swing a sword and slash through chainmail. Kouki should be able to bisect a human wearing full armor with his stat of 200, especially if he use a high quality holy sword, even more if he use a sword skill. A normal handgun or revolver sometimes can't even penetrate a human just wearing normal clothes.

As for cannon, in our world, no matter how good your armor is, the moment you got hit by a bombardment you are finished. In fantasy world, they already have experience with magical bombardment and can even use magic to form barrier for protection from explosion. Its an advantage yeah if you can mass produce cannon, but its not really a game changer. And if human can mass produce cannon, it will not be hard for the devil to stole the design and made their own. And the human has a lot more cannon fodder that is less resistant to explosion compared to the devil and their monster army.

Can they? My impression was that mail armour was actually pretty good and it can withstand slashes, not sure about stabbings though. It definitely didn't withstand arrows.

[bakapervert]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Can they? My impression was that mail armour was actually pretty good and it can withstand slashes, not sure about stabbings though. It definitely didn't withstand arrows.

I'd expect a skilled knight with good strength and sword skill can do it.

[bludvein]

Your way overrating their strength. Not sure where you got that 200 was 20 times the strength of an average human or slicing through plate. The class wouldn't have been so shocked to see Hajime pick up the chimera one-handed if that was the case. By that logic Kouki would now be over a 100 times stronger than a normal human with his base stat, and he clearly isn't. Maybe 5x, but probably closer to 3x without limit break going by physical feats.

...and yeah its technically possible to slash through chain mail with normal human strength. It wouldn't be very smart though, as mail is far more vulnerable to stabbing. Slashing puts too much surface of the blade against unbroken metal, robbing it of its power.

[Kioras]

You can break through someone wearing normal chain, if you are using a weapon like the pollaxe or halberd and have the room to use it's leverage to get speed and momentum.

You are not going to bisect someone in armor with a bladed close combat weapon.

In combat, with a sword, it is often close in work, no room for full swings, and doing so is a good way to get stabbed or bashed. Chain will stop most of the attacks, just with some bruises, or broken bones.

[bakapervert]

Originally Posted by bludvein

Your way overrating their strength. Not sure where you got that 200 was 20 times the strength of an average human or slicing through plate. The class wouldn't have been so shocked to see Hajime pick up the chimera one-handed if that was the case. By that logic Kouki would now be over a 100 times stronger than a normal human with his base stat, and he clearly isn't. Maybe 5x, but probably closer to 3x without limit break going by physical feats.

...and yeah its technically possible to slash through chain mail with normal human strength. It wouldn't be very smart though, as mail is far more vulnerable to stabbing. Slashing puts too much surface of the blade against unbroken metal, robbing it of its power.

I think they are surprised that its the previously useless Hajime that done a feat like that. And he does block an attack with one hand while looking like he done it without effort at all and he does not even moved by a centimeter from where he stand.

And why do you say Kouki's strength clearly isn't 100 times normal human?

Originally Posted by Kioras

You can break through someone wearing normal chain, if you are using a weapon like the pollaxe or halberd and have the room to use it's leverage to get speed and momentum.

You are not going to bisect someone in armor with a bladed close combat weapon.

Even if its in fantasy world where the human's strength is multiplied? And the weapon also seems better than normal weapon.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

I think they are surprised that its the previously useless Hajime that done a feat like that. And he does block an attack with one hand while looking like he done it without effort at all and he does not even moved by a centimeter from where he stand.

And why do you say Kouki's strength clearly isn't 100 times normal human?

Let's say an average fit male could lift 200 pounds. Your talking about him being able to lift 10 tons. Where has Kouki ever shown that kind of strength anywhere? That's not even counting limit break.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by bludvein

Let's say an average fit male could lift 200 pounds. Your talking about him being able to lift 10 tons. Where has Kouki ever shown that kind of strength anywhere?

Isn't that where the limit break thingy comes in?

[maniac88]

I think what bakapervert mean when he said regular human is refer to normal civilian who dont receive any training. Sure the max of regular human is 100 to 200, but it is when his level is maxed at 100 and i doubt normal human(civilians such as farmer or scholar or blacksmith perhaps) gonna bother to reach that level,,
Also when author meant max stats of 100 to 200 i dont think he means all stats have the same value,, most likely one or two parameter reach that stage when other parameter much lower (considering the other classmate status except kouki have different value).

Lets say hajime is considered normal human in the beginning with his stats, we also saw hajime development prior eating monster meat,, training for 2 whole weeks only to increase 1 level and 2 point stat boost. So i am assuming the average civilians status is around 20 to 50,, and when you consider kouki's current status in 800 mark, he is at least 10 folds stats wise.

And dont forget, status means nothing. We already saw kouki's getting owned by the emperor when his status is much much lower than kouki.

[bakapervert]

Originally Posted by bludvein

Let's say an average fit male could lift 200 pounds. Your talking about him being able to lift 10 tons. Where has Kouki ever shown that kind of strength anywhere? That's not even counting limit break.

Hajime is an average male and I don't think he could lift 200 pounds before he become GARcher. Lets say he could lift 100 pounds, and at that time he has stats 10. Now he has strength stats 10950, according to my calculation he should be able to lift 55 ton. Hajime's feat is lifting a chimera weighed several hundred kilograms with one hand. Before that he also stopping that chimera's attack with one hand. If its a normal animal, I'd say that the attack power with the momentum and all should be worth a few ton. Considering this is a chimera that can survive in dungeon level 90, well, lets just say its 5 ton worth of power. Hajime block its attack with one hand and he is not moved from where he is standing at all and I got the impression that his standing posture is not even change. I would say that kind of feat would need several times the power of the opposing force, so with one hand Hajime has 15 or 20 ton worth of power, possibly more. With two hand it should be at least double that, 30 or 40 ton.

Well, that's just a rough calculation using many guess, so maybe there is a lot fault there. I'm not sure, but I think the stats should be accurate with simple multiplication.

[Xacual]

You know I was thinking about this just now what with how Kouki wasn't really happy with how things had turned out and was wanting to say more to Hajime. Do you guys think he might try to challenge Hajime to a duel now that he's mostly recovered? It depends on whether Hajime ditches everyone immediately now that he's reunited with Miyuu and they're out of the dungeon but I could honestly see him doing it.

[SoloPanda]

I think everyone is assuming that the stats are a direct correlation to the physical ability of the character. In most of these instances, such as RPG's, which I think this is being based off of there the law of diminishing returns to take into account. The stronger one becomes in that particular stat the less increasing it actually does for him. Lets say that at 100 str Kouki would be 100% or 2 times stronger than an average human, after that he would have to go up 200 to get the same effect of 100% of an average humans strength added on (so this would make 300 Kouki 3 times as strong as an average human), then 400 to make 700 for 4 times and so on. So in the end they would end up being several times stronger than the average human making them worthy of the title cheat characters, but the amount wouldn't be so much that they could carry around 10 tons or so.

[Kioras]

Originally Posted by SoloPanda

I think everyone is assuming that the stats are a direct correlation to the physical ability of the character. In most of these instances, such as RPG's, which I think this is being based off of there the law of diminishing returns to take into account. The stronger one becomes in that particular stat the less increasing it actually does for him. Lets say that at 100 str Kouki would be 100% or 2 times stronger than an average human, after that he would have to go up 200 to get the same effect of 100% of an average humans strength added on (so this would make 300 Kouki 3 times as strong as an average human), then 400 to make 700 for 4 times and so on. So in the end they would end up being several times stronger than the average human making them worthy of the title cheat characters, but the amount wouldn't be so much that they could carry around 10 tons or so.

That calculation works pretty well with Kouki, but the linear scaling breaks down with Hajime, who despite having ~11k strength, is doing massive feats of strength.

Currently I am not really too sure if the stats play into how the story is going, other then to have something to say that Kouki is stronger then most, and Hajime is way stronger then he is.

We might either be dealing with very fast linear scaling, or something that once they break a certain power band things scale up quicker again.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Kioras

That calculation works pretty well with Kouki, but the linear scaling breaks down with Hajime, who despite having ~11k strength, is doing massive feats of strength.

Currently I am not really too sure if the stats play into how the story is going, other then to have something to say that Kouki is stronger then most, and Hajime is way stronger then he is.

We might either be dealing with very fast linear scaling, or something that once they break a certain power band things scale up quicker again.

My opinion is that Hajime and Kouki follows different scales now. Kouki is on the human scale, while Hajime is on the demon scale since he absorbed a lot of demonic characteristic, enough that his stats were called Demon Lord like.

[HasNoLove]

hey, hajime did hide status of his plate with some kind of magic right? do you thing dat magic still workin on people in the kingdom, someone like the high priest? though I know dat hajime already go to god level, but still...