2006-04-01, 02:36 | Link #681 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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You know, someone pointed out that even 1st cousin marriage is legal in some countries
@rooboy666 I wouldn't throw everything out. I could use the whole Kaede arc, but since Sia didn't doublecross Kaede, the arc conclusion would be much smoother and believable. Sia is a far better character than Asa and I'd make sure she didn't go OOC. Well, I would've maked sure Asa didn't go OOC. I'd mix Asa's arc with Kaede's and let Kaede out of her mental state alone when she finds out that Asa's condition is getting worse and she's probably going to die, then move the Kaede-Asa scene to the hospital with Asa in bed, all white and stuff. Much more easier to pull and nothing would have been OOC. Of course I'd have moved ep 22 and mix it with the epilogue. That could work. But I'd probably go with my Sia suggestion if I can pull it, although the above sounds more dramatic. Will I have Asa die? Hmm hmm.. It would be excellent either way. Although now, I think it would be best if I hook them up in ep 17-18 and see what I can pull in the remaining episodes, instead of ep 11-12. Canvas 2 seemed to use some sort of Sia red herring, but it used it extensively for many episodes before deciding to blur the picture. That's ok, but I didn't expect Sia to be dumped, so I'm not expecting enough reason to dump Kiri either. And if Hiroki rejects Kiri it'll be Shuffle all over again, when I couldn't see a reason for Rin to dump Sia other than "there's another girl I like, I found that out now".
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2006-04-01, 12:28 | Link #682 | |
Umeboshi!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 48
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I guess my real point was that almost all episodic writing is formulaic, if you don't like the particular formula used in harem animes, you could always just switch to a different kind of show. This is one of the reasons why I try to watch a variety of shows. I find if I watch just one type than the formulas involved become too stale. I'm reasonably sure that most very good writers are employed in jobs that don't involve anime that airs past midnight. Though in your particular case I know you watch other kinds of shows as well, so I'm unsure exactly what your point is. Spoiler:
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2006-04-01, 12:30 | Link #683 |
worshipping the pantyhose
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Manila, Philippines
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........ *cough* ............... Now, I don't know what to say, but I think it's more appropriate to greet everyone of you here, my friends, my fellow canvas 2 viewers, and my.....fans Hello everyone, it's nice to post again after so many weeks of absence. I apologize that I have not been there for the last remaining episodes of Canvas 2 like I always have been for the first half. There is much to tell about my past 2 months, the pain and suffering I have endured, and my current status as of now. But to sum it up, right now I am in Germany, several thousand miles away from home and my desktop, and right now I've been currently going down memory lane and visiting the places of my past life when I used to live in Germany more than a decade ago. For years I have avoided this trip, and it was about time I just had to go. I'll blog those later, but right now, the subject at hand: Canvas 2. Before I begin, I'm sure there is a lot of discussion that has gone on the past few pages, so anyone nice enough to sum it up as short as possible as to what you all were discussing in my absence. I appreciate that. I will then post my thoughts on Canvas 2, the past few episodes, my deciding thoughts and just about everything that I'm gonna assault you guys with It's good to be back, and expect me to be here on the forums in the next couple of days as I try to regain the lost time I have so painfully tried to not lose. On a side note I'd like to personally thank iwolf at L-R for doing what he can to bring me the anime that I normally would have watched myself (I have avoided my way of watching anime since I, at this time, don't have a portable TV with me ) |
2006-04-01, 12:31 | Link #684 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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@rooboy666 You know, according to your logic, everything is formulaic. And how would the "actual intelligent alternative" to the kind of writing I like make Shuffle or Canvas? Plus, Smallville is almost a soap opera, you can't easily escape repetition. Here we're talking about a 24 ep-only anime.
Spoiler for summing up a bit:
I believe that sums it up a bit. I don't remember most stuff but that's more or less what took place.
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Last edited by npal; 2006-04-01 at 12:43. |
2006-04-01, 13:42 | Link #685 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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I was wondering which jail they sent you to for loli-hentai This sums up my feeling of canvas2 Ep24. *MaKi*canvas2 writers*Maki*Maki*Maki*Maki*Maki*Maki Btw you miss a great discussion on loli in the Fate/Stay Night forum
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Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2006-04-01 at 14:14. |
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2006-04-01, 14:13 | Link #686 | |
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2006-04-01, 14:43 | Link #687 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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2006-04-01, 15:54 | Link #688 | ||
Umeboshi!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 48
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And, of course, I should point out that I wasn't trying to say that the way you like the writing to be is _NOT_ intelligent, just that it isn't the _ONLY_ thing reasonable, intelligent people might be looking for, since no two people are the same it is reasonable to assume that not everyone looks for the same things out of a series. I definitely in no way intended to demean the things you like, I just thought I would defend the fact that there is a school of thought out there that doesn't necessarily agree with yours. Or at least, that's what my literature professors beat into me. Sorry if I seem cranky, my son had to have his arm re-set before putting it into a cast yesterday, and, on top of that, he just realized this morning (when we were at the game) that this means he won't be able to play lacrosse at all this season. So, as you can imagine, it's been a fairly miserable two days.
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2006-04-01, 17:20 | Link #689 | |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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Oh well, you could say so, no offense taken. I can accept different opinions (as long as they don't try to qualify as better - unless of course I can see they are better in which case I'll support them )
@justsomeguy Spoiler:
For truth, here is my second comment after seeing the screenshots (without having seen ep 22 yet). Quote:
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As I said before, the only thing I didn't like about Canvas is that my favorite is doomed again Other than that, I liked the storytelling and the character interactions, and I still do. And up to now, the series were pretty decent so I hope that ep 23-24 with shed some light to this whole case.
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2006-04-01, 19:24 | Link #690 | |
Dame Cheesie
Graphic Designer
Join Date: May 2004
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I'm not sure how to put this in words, but this is exactly the same case with Asa of Shuffle, who won early, and Shuffle created a *moment* for Rin and Asa, who took their time to sprout GOOD (yes, Npal, I'm looking at you :P) romantic junk, as is the case with Junichi/Nemu, etcetcetc. I didn't see that happening with Hiroki/Kiri at all; was there something else going to happen based on this setup? I'm not sure, really. But Episode 22 marks a turning point for me - when Elis told Hiroki she didn't have feelings for him anymore, a blatant lie, credits to her for trying to move on for real this time. Here, she is no longer the childish brat, Hiroki's 'sister'. She goes against what Hiroki normally expects her to do, and this throws his expectations of her as 'Hiroki's kid sister' out of the window. (Albeit late, but who ever said the dude was smart?) Ironically, it is now Hiroki who has to question his own feelings, as it seems that he took it for granted that his feelings for Kiri are always there. It may lead to Kiri after all, but I hope for something to give grounds to all my opinions regarding this triangle. If it is Elis as the winner, then my skills gained from my days of watching harem weren't all for naught! Last edited by cheesie; 2006-04-01 at 19:52. |
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2006-04-01, 20:55 | Link #691 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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That "lukewarm" is the main clue presented in ep22 along with Kiri's troubled looks at key points. I guess its the same old problem under it all ... male lead with poor internal character development. Kiri and Elise are doing all the acting...
well.... I guess ep23 will be enlightening.
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2006-04-01, 21:02 | Link #692 |
Dame Cheesie
Graphic Designer
Join Date: May 2004
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^ It'll be nice if Hiroki doesn't keep to himself so much - makes it hard to figure out what he thinks of the girls, and I wouldn't have to rely on direction most of the time. But it's also why I just can't buy HirokixKiri, no matter how much I try to see it otherwise. Feel free to slap me in the face with triumphant posts if I'm wrong though.
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2006-04-01, 23:46 | Link #693 | ||||
It's what's for dinner
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Then, until episode 19, it seemed like the series had absolutely nothing to do with the love triangle at all, from either the perspective of Elis or Kiri (although I'm sure there was random blushing from all parties at one point or another), and I wasn't sure what they were planning to do, particularly after all the heavy stuff in the first half. Then episode 19 rolls around, and the love triangle gets into play. Hiroki not sure what to do about Kiri, Kiri not sure what to do about Hiroki, and Elis not sure what to do about Hiroki. Quote:
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I suddenly thought of Nadesico again... Uribitake telling the mechanics to be more careful with a new mech, to "treat it like a sister, not a girlfriend". Anyway, I'm being vague here, because it appears, crisis, that you are at least pretending you don't know what happens in episode 23 or 24 (although how you could not when almost half this thread is now dealing with episode 24 is beyond me ). For all the faults of Shuffle and its last two arcs (Kaede and Asa) in terms of writing/plotting, you definitely could at least tell from either episode 6 (if you're generous), or at least the Primula arc, that Rin really did love Asa (Nerine and Sia picked it up immediately after Primula's rescue). And Da Capo had some major build up as well (I really liked how that series actually bothered to deal with what some might call the slightly creepy "sister" factor that creeps into a lot of these shows - Suginami confronted Junichi about it, for instance - it showed guts, that made me appreciate the series a lot more). I honestly don't know where I'm going with this post. So much of this has been said already, in different forms, it's getting old. We all know how this ended. For better or worse. Not every anime series is gold, and so very few series seem to end well these days. Just cause the last episode is bad, doesn't necessarily mean that your feelings about why you liked the rest of the series need to change (Nadesico, again...). But it is fun talking about it. The talk about a popularity poll with Elis as the sister character, I think I saw that on getchu at one point. Can't remember how I got there. But that might help others who care locate the poll. By the way, in terms of popularity polls, I recall they've had at least 3 on the official Canvas2 webpage... The first poll included the PC game characters (no Tomoko), and it was Elis, Kiri, then Hagino. The last two polls (with Tomoko included) were Tomoko, Kiri, then Elis. Which, if they were basing it off of popularity polls, would explain Tomoko's increased presence in episode 22. Spoiler for ep 23 and 24:
How did I end up posting such a long, rambling post? I need my head examined. |
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2006-04-02, 02:33 | Link #694 | ||||
Dame Cheesie
Graphic Designer
Join Date: May 2004
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Since the finale is just right there, It was hell attempting not to click, and find out if Hiroki goes for Kiri or Elis, but Canvas 2 certainly fired me enough to keep on guessing till the very end, the same way Shuffle did. Yes, because I like Elis that much. However, THIS: Quote:
(A more coherent post later, once I stop smiling like an idiot,. ) Last edited by cheesie; 2006-04-02 at 03:12. |
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2006-04-02, 04:16 | Link #695 | |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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What is the meaning of this? That if my glasses are a particular color, I see impicit or vague things in a particular way. But I didn't care much about accepting those pointers. Despite my better judgment that Rin loved Sia (ok Kaede was far-fetched but she was my favorite) from all the facts of previous episodes, Rin suddenly rejected Sia and went for Asa. To me, it didn't make sense. Then, what troubled me in Shuffle was the Kaede arc resolution and the weak reasoning behind Asa's reasoning, but this can be easily seen by anyone so my glasses didn't play that big a part in that. I believe that's what's happening here. Those who want to see something will see it, those who don't, won't, but it's as much a case of bad writing as the Rin-Sia-Asa resolution. To me, Sia's rejection came out of nowhere (it still does, no matter what anyone says, to me it reeks of "ok, NOT Sia, why? because"), no matter tha claim for Asa clues. For others, it was inevitable and justifiable. In essence, it boils down to what you consider clues. There's not definite case of bad writing here as it was in Kaede's arc resolution or Asa's weak reasoning, unless we count Sia's rejection as bad writing, then I'll admit that there's a problem with Kiri's confession. ALTHOUGH in Sia's case, there were OBVIOUS facts (kissing scene in the beach,which was the first in the series, going out together, etc), while in Kiri's case, Hiroki had so many chances but didn't do anything. Rin tried to kiss Sia but they were found out.
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Last edited by npal; 2006-04-02 at 04:30. |
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2006-04-02, 04:49 | Link #696 | |
Dame Cheesie
Graphic Designer
Join Date: May 2004
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2006-04-02, 05:28 | Link #697 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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Well, it did cross mine, it could be supported, it was there, so why not pull a harem change for god's sake? Make the procclaimed "INNOVATION". I'd take Canvas' approach anytime than having adequate clues, strong facts and throwing them out of the window just because there are 4 more girls. That wasn't a very successful harem approach, in most other harem anime, leads TEND towards one or the other, without having strong proof to support that resolution, then either pick no one or just pick one, whether it makes the most sense or not. In Shuffle, there were strong FACTS supporting a Rin-Sia resolution but someone took the time to throw them out. Someone might point out that ep 16-17 was basically Sia seeing that things have slowed down and she's not liking it. Well, we can't compare that to HirokixKiri that seemed to not progress at all. When around each other, they were just as they were back in highschool, no real change.
The "harem process of elimination" of Shuffle is idiotic at best, concerning Sia. The whole idea of elimination is somewhat flawed, but it can be done, if the male lead doesn't show a particular interest in someone and rejects them. Then it can stand more or less. But the whole Sia case was bad writing to me in favor of Asa. In Canvas' case, the childhood friend status doesn't make things easier, since most of Hiroki's reactions towards Kiri can be interpreted under that prism. The only thing that could break that prism is a kiss scene, but that never happened. The problem with Hiroki is that we don't know just what type of guy he really is. Example : We know Takayuki just goes with the flow, be it Haruka or Mitsuki, I don't think he cares that much, it's first come first serve, but if something happens, he's open game again. Rin is a typical, "I'll help everyone", indecisive guy, for whom no one can say who he really loves. Why? Well, he tried to kiss Sia before. He can be romantic without meaning much. So even ep 19-21 Asa interactions could as well mean nothing. Under this prism, we don't know who he's gonna dump next. Nozomu from Futakoi is more like Rin, but unlike Rin, he tries to keep everyone at an equal distance (more or less) until he can sort out his feeling and know who he really loves. That's more mature than Rin going from one girl to the next in a fit of indecision. Now where does Hiroki stand? I'd say he's more like Nozomu. He has some flaws, he can be harsh at times, but he's usually composed, well spoken, helpful and kind. We know why he rejected Kiri the first time. We don't know what happened to Kiri's second confession. We don't know why he rejected Elis (or is someone knows, point me to the episode and time, I can't remember right now). I mean, even Rin SUPPOSEDLY gave the reason that he likes someone else (bad writing if you ask me, he didn't give it much thought when he was dating Sia). So, for me, it boils down to "why did Hiroki reject Elis the first time?" If he said he loves another... well... I won't say that feelings change, I'd say it's bad writing and Hiroki should stick to what he says. As it is, Hiroki never did anything explicit or implicit that points to a romantic relationship with any of the girls. But since most other girls (except Hagino, I'd be positively shocked if they pulled something like that ) were out of the game, for most of us it seemed that Hiroki rejecting Elis automatically means Kiri. The thing I liked about Canvas, which Shuffle didn't have, is consistency in the love triangle and not "let's all fall for Hiroki and get our screentime and story resolved by Hiroki". Elis was helping the other girls, too, at some point. I really want to believe that it's not another case of bad writing and that Hiroki's reasons will become apparent in the next 2 episodes.
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2006-04-02, 06:17 | Link #699 | |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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2006-04-02, 06:50 | Link #700 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Age: 37
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@ npal oh! I see the Text Sig is back, Cool! Last edited by evil-samurai; 2006-04-02 at 07:11. |
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bishoujo, drama, eroge, f&c, kadokawa, romance, school life, seinen, slice of life, zexcs |
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