(L) Shimoneta to Iu Gainen ga Sonzai Shinai Taikutsu na Sekai: Manmaru-hen

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

How so? Brain damage is a different beast altogether. But stuff like depression, OCD, and the ilk, whether you classify them as "abnormal brain chemistry" or not, may as well be rooted in reasons like sexual repression, upbringing, and so on. You are creating artificial divisions if you split behaviour and brain chemistry in these different realms. Our "mind" isn't something that exists in its own realm. It's the very consequence of physical, chemical processes going on in our brain, which are in turn influenced by our experiences and thoughts.

In other words, no matter how you see it... almost raping a schoolmate, threatening another with a pair of scissors, and mixing vaginal fluids into cookies and drinks would be considered as signs of mental illness in any situation. It doesn't matter what it comes *from* - it led to completely antisocial and potentially harmful behaviour. And it's hardly something that is simply fixed by having sex and unleashing that urge. in some cases it might work, but remember: this is a person whose entire world view has been shaped upon a set of values that she is now bound to understand she is violating on a daily basis. She's locked into a contradiction between her beliefs and her wants. This is never healthy.

I am no psychologist, but I mean... look no further than all those homosexual kids who grow up in bigot families and are forced to hide and repress their sexuality for that. It's not like they can't come out of it somewhat fine, but they'll probably still bear the scars of it, and the process will likely be stormy. At the very least they end up breaking up with their family altogether. And we're NOT talking people whose repression explodes into criminal behaviour like Anna's. Yeah, she may have had pent up sexual urges, but damn is she expressing them in a completely bat-shit crazy way now.

Depends on social upbringing and culture which she has a lack of. And technically it wasn't rape. It was consensual( with a flimsly forge paper but still)

More to the point you are basing this on very Limited culture. Considering Anna's typical duties, she's was brought up as a virtual tyrant( if not beloved tyrant)

Most cases of such extreme behavior is eithier child abuse DV or some Childhood trauma or a physical damage of the brain. I don't think Anna has any of that.

A raging sex drive coupled with weak social upbringing is easy fixable, to an extent. Proper release of said sexual frustration was a common medical treatment up till the 1950s which was a simple shall we say massager.

If okuma would only commit, it will be fine haha.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by kukuru

Depends on social upbringing and culture which she has a lack of. And technically it wasn't rape. It was consensual( with a flimsly forge paper but still)

More to the point you are basing this on very Limited culture. Considering Anna's typical duties, she's was brought up as a virtual tyrant( if not beloved tyrant)

Most cases of such extreme behavior is eithier child abuse DV or some Childhood trauma or a physical damage of the brain. I don't think Anna has any of that.

A raging sex drive coupled with weak social upbringing is easy fixable, to an extent. Proper release of said sexual frustration was a common medical treatment up till the 1950s which was a simple shall we say massager.

If okuma would only commit, it will be fine haha.

He told her to stop twice, and she still continued. Thus she tried to rape him.
Oh and please don't say he didn't fight back now, because aside from her being able to kick in steel doors, h was also tied up.

I'm really starting to wonder if people would defend Okuma if their roles in the anime were ENTIRELY reversed (mentality included)

- Point is Anna's behavior is inexcusable.

[SuitUp]

No, they wouldn't defend him if the roles were reversed, but that has more to do with double standards and the constant flock of people looking for something to condemn as sexism rather than with either Anna's (or Okuma's if it were the case) condition and why is the way it is...
Also, I don't think this is the proper show to be analizing the characters, it is an absurdist comedy after all

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

He told her to stop twice, and she still continued. Thus she tried to rape him.
Oh and please don't say he didn't fight back now, because aside from her being able to kick in steel doors, h was also tied up.

I'm really starting to wonder if people would defend Okuma if their roles in the anime were ENTIRELY reversed (mentality included)

- Point is Anna's behavior is inexcusable.

No it's excusable and I would say the same thing even the position were reversed between her Okuma. Anna and rest of this generation are no more than victims of an absurd police state instituted by previous generation. Nothing comes from condemning a somebody who has no idea what they doing and were raise on ignorance. That should be reserved fr her mother and anyone who help pass this inane law. Anna isn't the source of problem just the result and I just pity for her. It's only a matter of time more cases like her appear and cause societal collapse because the doctrine in place sure is hell not healthy.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

No it's excusable and I would say the same thing even the position were reserved between her Okuma. Anna and rest of this generation are no more than victims of an absurd police state instituted by previous generation. Nothing comes from condemning a somebody who has no idea what they doing and were raise on ignorance. Anna isn't the source of problem just the result and I just pity for her. It's only a matter of time case like her appear and cause societal collapse because the doctrine in place sure hell not healthy.

Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. Pretty sure rape laws still apply even in that society.

[Iron Maw]

Not if people no longer even know what rape is when their textbooks won't talk about sex or pregnancies even under the guise of science. We are talking about the same country who thought that this law was good idea in the first place.

Besides the whole point of sex education is to teach this stuff to start with and provide an outet for discussion.

I'm sure if Anna knew what she was doing instead being driven by her emotions this wouldn't be happening. By hey continuing to vilify her instead suggesting discussions or help.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Not if people no longer even know what rape is when their textbooks won't talk about sex or pregnancies even under the guise of science. We are talking about the same country who thought that this law was good idea in the first place.

Besides the whole point of sex education is to teach this stuff to start with and provide an outet for discussion.

I'm sure if Anna knew what she was doing instead being driven by her emotions this wouldn't be happening. By hey continuing to vilify her instead suggesting discussions or help.

I'm not vilifying her. She is a product of the society, however what she was doing to the guy was a cut and dry near rape. You can't talk around it, you can't mask it. Even if they don't teach that type of thing, what was happening was rape. And unless they for some reason repealed rape laws during the "cleanse" of the impure stuff, she is still subject to the laws of the society. And despite all this, she still felt the need to tie him up and "blindfold" him so that isn't exactly an ignorant thing either.

And like I said, there is no country where ignorance of the law is a legitimate defense.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by SuitUp

No, they wouldn't defend him if the roles were reversed, but that has more to do with double standards and the constant flock of people looking for something to condemn as sexism rather than with either Anna's (or Okuma's if it were the case) condition and why is the way it is...
Also, I don't think this is the proper show to be analizing the characters, it is an absurdist comedy after all

tbH I didn't really wonder about it. I just didn't want to flat out say people just defend her because she is missing an attachment btween her legs

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

No it's excusable and I would say the same thing even the position were reversed between her Okuma. Anna and rest of this generation are no more than victims of an absurd police state instituted by previous generation. Nothing comes from condemning a somebody who has no idea what they doing and were raise on ignorance. That should be reserved fr her mother and anyone who help pass this inane law. Anna isn't the source of problem just the result and I just pity for her. It's only a matter of time more cases like her appear and cause societal collapse because the doctrine in place sure is hell not healthy.

Despite cultural changes in this series world, I doubt the meaning or understanding of 'Wait' and 'no' have changed.
And atually Anna probably even had an idea that she shouldn't have done what she did otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to tie him up.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Calca

I'm not vilifying her. She is a product of the society, however what she was doing to the guy was a cut and dry near rape. You can't talk around it, you can't mask it. Even if they don't teach that type of thing, what was happening was rape. And unless they for some reason repealed rape laws during the "cleanse" of the impure stuff, she is still subject to the laws of the society. And despite all this, she still felt the need to tie him up and "blindfold" him so that isn't exactly an ignorant thing either.

And like I said, there is no country where ignorance of the law is a legitimate defense.

If weren't those very "laws" that fostered and caused this mess in the first place I would agree. If anything Anna is in grey area as long as she isn't sound of mind.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Despite cultural changes in this series world, I doubt the meaning or understanding of 'Wait' and 'no' have changed.
And atually Anna probably even had an idea that she shouldn't have done what she did otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to tie him up.

Hard to be reasonable when you're unstable. =/

That said talking about this seriously is pretty moot when the show puts nearly everything through comedic lens. The Japan in this scenario is too far out there for someone not being able to predict this happening in the first place. Especially when Okuma and Ayame treat as no real big deal. So it's whatever "enjoy the ride thing".

[Benigmatica]

Well, I've caught up this show to Ep. 5! Honestly, having chastity belts to suppress the youth's raging lust would get worse from there. How can they procreate when you can't remove it?

Meanwhile, seems that ShimoSeka is happening in real-life as seen in India recently (courtesy of CNN):
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/03/tech...ebsites-block/

[Gan_HOPE326]

There's a pretty big difference between not being guilty and not being entirely in possession of one's own full mental faculties.

What you are arguing is that while what Anna did could count as attempted rape (it was), she did it because she was not in a state to understand what was it that she was doing. In other words, if you were her attorney defending her in a trial... you would be going for an insanity defence: that she was not able to understand the meaning of her own actions at the time. Which leads us back to square one.

I'm not saying you can't argue there are reasons for her to do what she did. The show itself doesn't cast her as a villain, more like an example of why the Law for Morality is such a fucked up thing. Because the one girl who was grown up by its very proponents, probably the product of its strictest possible application, is a complete sociopathic sex-crazed nutcase.

She's a victim of the situation too in a way, of course. But to say that this could be fixed by having some sex is simplistic as well. Her problem isn't with a lack of sex - a lot of people experience that. It's with her worldview which sees sex as evil while not really understanding it and being wrestled by her own instincts. She went almost nuts by the conflict between her physical attraction and her wish to stay faithful to Okuma at the end of episode 5 already. THAT is the point. Her dissonance between ideals and bodily desires is what is tearing her up. It isn't just non sated lust, or every horny 15 year old boy would be the same, and that clearly is not the case. A religious fanatic experiencing sudden violent sexual desire, or even worse, homosexual urges, would be a closer example.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

There's a pretty big difference between not being guilty and not being entirely in possession of one's own full mental faculties.

What you are arguing is that while what Anna did could count as attempted rape (it was), she did it because she was not in a state to understand what was it that she was doing. In other words, if you were her attorney defending her in a trial... you would be going for an insanity defence: that she was not able to understand the meaning of her own actions at the time. Which leads us back to square one.

I'm not saying you can't argue there are reasons for her to do what she did. The show itself doesn't cast her as a villain, more like an example of why the Law for Morality is such a fucked up thing. Because the one girl who was grown up by its very proponents, probably the product of its strictest possible application, is a complete sociopathic sex-crazed nutcase.

She's a victim of the situation too in a way, of course. But to say that this could be fixed by having some sex is simplistic as well. Her problem isn't with a lack of sex - a lot of people experience that. It's with her worldview which sees sex as evil while not really understanding it and being wrestled by her own instincts. She went almost nuts by the conflict between her physical attraction and her wish to stay faithful to Okuma at the end of episode 5 already. THAT is the point. Her dissonance between ideals and bodily desires is what is tearing her up. It isn't just non sated lust, or every horny 15 year old boy would be the same, and that clearly is not the case. A religious fanatic experiencing sudden violent sexual desire, or even worse, homosexual urges, would be a closer example.

More to the point, you have to argue that it was consensual, as there was written consent. A reversal of that was made, but it's impossible to argue under law which has 1: a society wiped of sexual conduct, 2: the lines between rough play, and assault, is non existent, via former problem.

In rough play, there are "safe words" for us, but none exist, or even the act of sex itself was unknown to Anna. "What is this thing poking on my chest, and why do I want to take off his pants" is legit defense.

Even if roles were reverse, it is true that Anna did not force herself until the moment consent was made, she was until that flimsy sign willing to submit to being a stalker.

Lastly our protagonist is too much of a wimp to rebutt her advance. He chooses to run instead of confront her advances. This further becomes an issue, as what is rough play and what is unwanted advance is blurred especially to a Sex fiend in heat.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by kukuru

More to the point, you have to argue that it was consensual, as there was written consent. A reversal of that was made, but it's impossible to argue under law which has 1: a society wiped of sexual conduct, 2: the lines between rough play, and assault, is non existent, via former problem.

In rough play, there are "safe words" for us, but none exist, or even the act of sex itself was unknown to Anna. "What is this thing poking on my chest, and why do I want to take off his pants" is legit defense.

Even if roles were reverse, it is true that Anna did not force herself until the moment consent was made, she was until that flimsy sign willing to submit to being a stalker.

Lastly our protagonist is too much of a wimp to rebutt her advance. He chooses to run instead of confront her advances. This further becomes an issue, as what is rough play and what is unwanted advance is blurred especially to a Sex fiend in heat.

regard the rape peoples are forgeting another point, she threatened her friend with a sissor, if the rape is not enough to classify her a a threant then stalker him(before the consent), and threat other person life can be more than enough in any juri to conden her unless she is declared mentally instable which result she being place a threatment place for peoples with mental issues.

what anna did until now, is comic and for the show we are ignoring but, how she threat the girl with the sissor and later was holding her neck with enough strengt to in a real world could be killed her, without count the fact which she jumped out of nowere all that things are showing which she is not have any "sense" and have a huge mental issue.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by kukuru

More to the point, you have to argue that it was consensual, as there was written consent. A reversal of that was made, but it's impossible to argue under law which has 1: a society wiped of sexual conduct, 2: the lines between rough play, and assault, is non existent, via former problem.

In rough play, there are "safe words" for us, but none exist, or even the act of sex itself was unknown to Anna. "What is this thing poking on my chest, and why do I want to take off his pants" is legit defense.

Even if roles were reverse, it is true that Anna did not force herself until the moment consent was made, she was until that flimsy sign willing to submit to being a stalker.

Lastly our protagonist is too much of a wimp to rebutt her advance. He chooses to run instead of confront her advances. This further becomes an issue, as what is rough play and what is unwanted advance is blurred especially to a Sex fiend in heat.

Well, considering that Anna is basically a sex-crazed psychopathic yandere with the strength of The Incredible Hulk, I would say that rather than cowardly running away seems the only SANE thing to do ...

Anyway, yeah, what Anna did was attempted rape caused by her poor understanding of the situation. Which means in any present-day court she would be judged as mentally unstable and therefore sent in mandatory treatment rather than in jail for it. I don't think anyone is questioning that what she did was sort of "in good faith", but she STILL is crazy and dangerous. As the guy above me pointed out, there's not just the attempted rape, there's also the stalking, the threats, the whole scissor stuff... no matter how you look at it, she's a psycho.

[kukuru]

I believe most teenagers are psycho as well but society restricts their actions to a norm and moral contract.

If a society erases that and actually promotes it, liberal freedom is often a very bad thing. This why the protagonist is too much of a wimp in that regard. He should have made it clear a social contract was broken... Though we would lose much comedy.

Forget scissors and cookie ingredients teenagers have had much much more disgusting fantasies in their hormonal days.

Claiming moral high ground is totally hypocritical here. Though Anna is still one Looney yandere, she is the poster child of a high bred draconian upbringing. Her first taste of liberal freedom probably completely broke the dam of a life time of restrictive brainwashing.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by kukuru

Claiming moral high ground is totally hypocritical here. Though Anna is still one Looney yandere, she is the poster child of a high bred draconian upbringing. Her first taste of liberal freedom probably completely broke the dam of a life time of restrictive brainwashing.

Why would it be "hypocritical"? It would be only if I was a proponent of the kind of supposedly "healthy" upbringing that brought Anna to that point. Hypocritical means that your actions contradict your words/beliefs.

And I said a lot of times it's obvious that the whole point is that it isn't Anna's fault, it's the system's. But that does not change the fact that what she did is called attemped rape. It just means that if one wants to give moral responsibility for it, more falls with her parents than with her.

(also there's a huge difference between "fantasies" and reality. A lot of people have rape fantasies, doesn't mean they all are rapists, or would enjoy being victims of a rape...)

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by kukuru

I believe most teenagers are psycho as well but society restricts their actions to a norm and moral contract.

If a society erases that and actually promotes it, liberal freedom is often a very bad thing. This why the protagonist is too much of a wimp in that regard. He should have made it clear a social contract was broken... Though we would lose much comedy.

Forget scissors and cookie ingredients teenagers have had much much more disgusting fantasies in their hormonal days.

Claiming moral high ground is totally hypocritical here. Though Anna is still one Looney yandere, she is the poster child of a high bred draconian upbringing. Her first taste of liberal freedom probably completely broke the dam of a life time of restrictive brainwashing.

"forget the scissors and cookies and stalker is not something to do, that are the things which show how much anna is broken, scissor was a clear attemp to murder, if she ended indeed killing the other girl(damn i keep forgetting the main girl name) i really could doubt you could still calling her a "innocent" and only blame the "law", while the anime show which what can happen when you goes to extreme to restrict things this don't means which what she did was not her fault too and this is what we are talking here.

if she ended murdering the other girl the best scenario for her could be her family claim exactly which she is have high mental issues and ask to her be sended to a mental instituition to take care of her (which will be better than jail or even maybe death penal based on local laws).

while the anime deal in a very comic way a interesting theme, we don't forget which we are using a lot of "suspension of disbelief" and valley of uncannying to "just laught at her actions and don't take then serious", otherwise they are really serious problems for her and peoples around her.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Why would it be "hypocritical"? It would be only if I was a proponent of the kind of supposedly "healthy" upbringing that brought Anna to that point. Hypocritical means that your actions contradict your words/beliefs.

(also there's a huge difference between "fantasies" and reality. A lot of people have rape fantasies, doesn't mean they all are rapists, or would enjoy being victims of a rape...)

You are assuming there is a social contract that says rape is bad. How is that possible when you have the fact that rape doesn't exist.

It is hypocrisy in that one is taking a Moral high ground when they themselves during their youth year was probably much much worse.

And there lies the problem. Social contract that any anthropologist will teach you is a must in this case be examined fully.

You keep talking about attempted rape but where is it.
1: there was consent
2: there was no complaints filed ( there was a lot of running and screaming but no actual complaint)
3 there was no separation. normally if you fear someone you stay away from them. This never happen they have a comedy scene then back to normal everyday school life. In fact all interactions apart from "fun time" is friendly.

This is true rough play standards and completely disavowed in even our modern court. If it was true rape or true stalking or true attempted assault

Act like it.

A very common problem for law enforcement in DV rape etc.

This is why its shaming to get a high moral ground. They are in fact children and very hormonal children. Unless you establish and explain these things to them, they are in fact going to assume it is perfectly normal aka Anna "love". They are basically drug addicts that don't know they're addicts so of course what's left of common sense is gone in heat.

[SuitUp]

Come on, I just had to comment on this ^ even when I don't like the direction this argument is taking because we're talking about an absurdist comedy here, and not a particularly insightful one..

You keep talking about attempted rape but where is it.
1: there was consent
2: there was no complaints filed ( there was a lot of running and screaming but no actual complaint)
3 there was no separation. normally if you fear someone you stay away from them. This never happen they have a comedy scene then back to normal everyday school life. In fact all interactions apart from "fun time" is friendly.

Now this is just idiotic, the "consent" was a single sheet of paper that wasn't even written by Okuma (never mind the fact he was restrained and was scared out of his mind at the moment), the fact that there were no complaints doesn't mean the act didn't happen, and whether he avoids her or not is irrelevant to what transpired the night in question...
The argument that "it isn't reported, it didn't happen" is beyond illogical ...

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by kukuru

You are assuming there is a social contract that says rape is bad. How is that possible when you have the fact that rape doesn't exist.

It is hypocrisy in that one is taking a Moral high ground when they themselves during their youth year was probably much much worse.

And there lies the problem. Social contract that any anthropologist will teach you is a must in this case be examined fully.

You keep talking about attempted rape but where is it.
1: there was consent
2: there was no complaints filed ( there was a lot of running and screaming but no actual complaint)
3 there was no separation. normally if you fear someone you stay away from them. This never happen they have a comedy scene then back to normal everyday school life. In fact all interactions apart from "fun time" is friendly.

This is true rough play standards and completely disavowed in even our modern court. If it was true rape or true stalking or true attempted assault

Act like it.

A very common problem for law enforcement in DV rape etc.

This is why its shaming to get a high moral ground. They are in fact children and very hormonal children. Unless you establish and explain these things to them, they are in fact going to assume it is perfectly normal aka Anna "love". They are basically drug addicts that don't know they're addicts so of course what's left of common sense is gone in heat.

i think you are the one missunderstand things, it's not like don't exist rape and laws against it, what that future japan created was a law to counter the high increase of pervertness which could lead to rape and things like that, then they decide to "abolish" all the form of perv to make childs don't grow with interest in sexy and perv things then which this they can prevent "perv" peoples to born and also prevent rape and things like that, it's not like that things don't exist or existed they just tried to create a way to counter and prevent it from happen.

and he not wrote "rape me" in the paper he told which the person who love him can enter love and rape are 2 different things.

while in real life you can find "peoples with this sort of fetich"(which love to be ra..., well i watched it in a serie which i don't recall now, but was a policial/detective where a woman was killed and a guy was called the culprid then the dectetives discovery which the woman had fetiche for rape and like in anime invited peoples to do that in her house but she aways choose then a third person discovered it and killed her and blamed the guy she invited well in the end the original guy was innocent and the real culprit was jailed but the question is you can find peoples which that things) this is not like this is what he wanted to happen when he wrote the paper he not invited anyone to rape him, in the momment which she tied him and was holding in a way he could not react anymore was no more "allowed" and started to be rape, which we could clear see he trying to scream and asking her to stop which she just ignored and keep doing all the things.