Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 29 Discussion / Poll

[Tactics]

I'm coming because wandering what is second part looks like (as I felt nothing for the first part), yet I found past topic brought again.

I'll just add some details regarding both of your problem:

Spoiler for Please bring the discussion to General Discussion, I thought this thread is Episode Discussion LOL:

1. IBO is unpopular in Japan, is that only by TV rating?

No. That's already rating by general (Japan only).

2. But they said streaming results good, is that lie?

It's not a lie, by number of audience.

First, mind you that the rating used here is Japan one, location of the primary audience.

In Japan, anime is not only IBO or your favorite anime, there's more anime broadcasted than your usual anime(s) for this season list.
While IBO result on streaming can be said as good, majority of audience didn't see it as an anime worth of their priority compare to other anime(s) broadcasted / streamed; both Japan TV stations and stream providers tracked records of what anime(s) that get watched as soon as the newest episode released, IIRC during IBO first season, new anime(s) 1st until 6th rank (based on teenager to adult audience) are competition among: Osomatsu-san, Kindaichi Shounen no Jikenbo, Haikyuu, One Punch Man, Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry and Gakusen Toshi Asterisk.

IBO once on first rank (first episode), second and third episode on top 5, later-- it gradually fall that if Gundam is not about selling toys with worldwide market, there won't be second season for Tekkadan. Those who wished for second season can say thanks to Barbatos that easily sold out in many stores.

3. What is the cause of such result?

The main cause is premise used by Bandai and Sunrise when they promoting the anime.
In Japan, as we can see from several anime magazine scans, there will always a news promoting new anime for next season.

The premise used for promoting IBO MC, IIRC, is "New dynamic duo will change the world" something like that, which later turned out making Japanese audience less interested about IBO.

How so?

This is because dynamic duo standard bar by Japanese audience, in mecha department, is Simon-Kamina / Sei-Reiji type of duo.
Simply put, type of duo that not only worked for the same goal, but also capable of clashing ideals which will develop their relationship further. Most audience disappointed when they learned Mika will follow Orga just like that, unlike Simon who can doubt Kamina decision and come with different opinion or Reiji who can gave Sei enough problem to deal with, made them lose interest because that means the duo will just smoothly taking any challenge without any spark between them.

Okada name is not really helping, as target audience know she's best writing with melodrama approach, leading to mixed opinion.

Nagai name is not even helping, as Japanese anime audience, especially hardcore ones, learned to not expect much from his works.

The slow pace in the middle almost kill interest to the point one staff (not Okada) made a tweet asking audience to be patient to watch it until the end.

[Tenzen12]

O still don't get where this "narrative imply" cames from. Because I don't see anyone else voicing such impression. Tekkadan survived that long because they pushed forward from all they might and for any cost, there is no reason why should narrative suddenly get urge "punish" them for it.

[NBG]

I thought this was episode 29 discussion. . . lol

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by Tactics

I'm coming because wandering what is second part looks like (as I felt nothing for the first part), yet I found past topic brought again.

I'll just add some details regarding both of your problem:

Spoiler for Please bring the discussion to General Discussion, I thought this thread is Episode Discussion LOL:

1. IBO is unpopular in Japan, is that only by TV rating?

No. That's already rating by general (Japan only).

2. But they said streaming results good, is that lie?

It's not a lie, by number of audience.

First, mind you that the rating used here is Japan one, location of the primary audience.

In Japan, anime is not only IBO or your favorite anime, there's more anime broadcasted than your usual anime(s) for this season list.
While IBO result on streaming can be said as good, majority of audience didn't see it as an anime worth of their priority compare to other anime(s) broadcasted / streamed; both Japan TV stations and stream providers tracked records of what anime(s) that get watched as soon as the newest episode released, IIRC during IBO first season, new anime(s) 1st until 6th rank (based on teenager to adult audience) are competition among: Osomatsu-san, Kindaichi Shounen no Jikenbo, Haikyuu, One Punch Man, Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry and Gakusen Toshi Asterisk.

IBO once on first rank (first episode), second and third episode on top 5, later-- it gradually fall that if Gundam is not about selling toys with worldwide market, there won't be second season for Tekkadan. Those who wished for second season can say thanks to Barbatos that easily sold out in many stores.

3. What is the cause of such result?

The main cause is premise used by Bandai and Sunrise when they promoting the anime.
In Japan, as we can see from several anime magazine scans, there will always a news promoting new anime for next season.

The premise used for promoting IBO MC, IIRC, is "New dynamic duo will change the world" something like that, which later turned out making Japanese audience less interested about IBO.

How so?

This is because dynamic duo standard bar by Japanese audience, in mecha department, is Simon-Kamina / Sei-Reiji type of duo.
Simply put, type of duo that not only worked for the same goal, but also capable of clashing ideals which will develop their relationship further. Most audience disappointed when they learned Mika will follow Orga just like that, unlike Simon who can doubt Kamina decision and come with different opinion or Reiji who can gave Sei enough problem to deal with, made them lose interest because that means the duo will just smoothly taking any challenge without any spark between them.

Okada name is not really helping, as target audience know she's best writing with melodrama approach, leading to mixed opinion.

Nagai name is not even helping, as Japanese anime audience, especially hardcore ones, learned to not expect much from his works.

The slow pace in the middle almost kill interest to the point one staff (not Okada) made a tweet asking audience to be patient to watch it until the end.

I Always found this argument of the melodrama to be very silly and stupid, Gundam has always been known to have drama in their story, what the big deal if IBO has drama ? like LOL are you for real ? also why are we comparing Mikazuki to Simon from Gurren lagann ? these are two very different characters who have gone through very different situations there not the same so why compare them other then they both have someone they look up to ( for very different reason too lol) ones a digger who wants to see the outside world the other is a damaged child soldier, who has to survive in the world he lives in ( this episode once again proves that ) I don't know why people like you love to compare this to Gurren lagan when they are no where near the same one is really world fiction, the other is fantasy fiction (end of story )

I feel Good after letting that out

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

You wouldn't mind putting a source to that?

That example does not fit mainly because it's different medium and implies there are multiple endings.

For the record, by "from that point," I meant "the point of Biscuit's death in-story." I never intended my translation to imply that this was a last minute decision.

In fact, given that this was about how the narrative would connect Biscuit's death to the happy ending Nagai wanted, Okada would have been labouring over this during planning (minimum 18 months to 2 years ago now), not during the scriptwriting stage (around 16-20 weeks prior to broadcast of the episodes in question).

@tdx

Spoiler for OT - re: the translation:

Originally Posted by tdx

Also, a correction of a small mistranslation I've noticed about Orga-Mika relationship: it's not Orga who respects Mika's genius, it's the other way around *snip*

Thank you for picking that up. I'm not that precious about my translations because I know that I sometimes make simple mistakes like this (and never pick them up because I don't have time to go over the entire interview again), so I do appreciate it. It's embarrassing for me, but it's far better to have accurate translations out there.

If you do pick up anything else, however, could I trouble you to leave a comment on the post as well? I'm not actually watching IBO this season, so I'm trying to avoid these threads if possible. Though don't feel like you have to read through the entire interview or anything - just if anything else comes up in discussion.

[wissenschaft]

Originally Posted by darkone45

I Always found this argument of the melodrama to be very silly and stupid, Gundam has always been known to have drama in their story, what the big deal if IBO has drama ? like LOL are you for real ? also why are we comparing Mikazuki to Simon from Gurren lagann ? these are two very different characters who have gone through very different situations there not the same so why compare them other then they both have someone they look up to ( for very different reason too lol) ones a digger who wants to see the outside world the other is a damaged child soldier, who has to survive in the world he lives in ( this episode once again proves that ) I don't know why people like you love to compare this to Gurren lagan when they are no where near the same one is really world fiction, the other is fantasy fiction (end of story )

I feel Good after letting that out

Hey now, Tactics wasn't giving his own opinion but rather what the Japanese audience's opinion was. This wouldn't be the first case of an anime being more popular overseas than in Japan.

Anyway, thank you model kits for giving us a second season of IBO. So far its been pretty good. Lets just hope it keeps up the current pace so this season doesn't end up with the slow down first season went through.

[Butagami]

Wow, things are really looking up, looks like this is going to be one big happy family. Their end-goal almost achieved with 20+ episodes to go? In a Gundam show? About child-soldiers? No worries there...

In all seriousness I was surprised Orga gave up on getting his money out of Gyojan. Yeah, he's an asshole, and plotted to have Kudelia killed, but as he said himself. that victory earlier cost them, so that would have come in handy. The last time Mika shot someone so hastily without considering the consequences, he gave birth to Ein...

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by darkone45

I Always found this argument of the melodrama to be very silly and stupid, Gundam has always been known to have drama in their story, what the big deal if IBO has drama ? like LOL are you for real ? also why are we comparing Mikazuki to Simon from Gurren lagann ? these are two very different characters who have gone through very different situations there not the same so why compare them other then they both have someone they look up to ( for very different reason too lol) ones a digger who wants to see the outside world the other is a damaged child soldier, who has to survive in the world he lives in ( this episode once again proves that ) I don't know why people like you love to compare this to Gurren lagan when they are no where near the same one is really world fiction, the other is fantasy fiction (end of story )

I feel Good after letting that out

Indeed, melodrama, tragedy, children using guns, politics, etc, are the foundations of Gundam, who watched the first series (0079) understands that. the series is popular, unfortunately, just is not the most popular of all, receives criticism from time to time? even Gintama and Detective Conan are BPO targets and also are popular. we should be happy that we can enjoy something so incredible at a time when the UN tries desperately make Japan to ban all anime.

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

Hey now, Tactics wasn't giving his own opinion but rather what the Japanese audience's opinion was. This wouldn't be the first case of an anime being more popular overseas than in Japan.

Anyway, thank you model kits for giving us a second season of IBO. So far its been pretty good. Lets just hope it keeps up the current pace so this season doesn't end up with the slow down first season went through.

Oh well my forgive me then and @Tactics sorry I sometims let my emotion get the best of me when its something I really like ( last time it was Code Geass back in 2008)


@LG-MAX 2.o for now on we should use 0079 as the example of how Gundam is like so people don't get this misunderstanding.

[NBG]

Would you guys consider what orga and mika did an execution?

[LG-MAX 2.o]

but this is not something new in the series, Mika-chan kill people all the time. it's wrong? immoral? this is already something personal.

[Chosen_Hero]

^^Not really, they just used him as an example of what happens to those that cross them.

[Irenesharda]

Everyone's been asking if Hush or Shino would get the Gundam, but what about the supposed mobile armour? I'm guessing it's supposed to be an assist for Barbatos, so could Hush possibly get the mobile armour while Shino get's the Gundam. Hush wants to pilot an MS so badly, but he really, practically doesn't seem cut out for it. Maybe the MA is the answer and he would be working with Mika on missions, which could be a learning experience for both of them.

Originally Posted by NBG

Would you guys consider what orga and mika did an execution?

No, because Orga did give the guy a chance to make things right by paying them what they asked. Sure he probably knew the guy wouldn't do it and that's why he planned accordingly, but just like with the older CGS 1st Group, he did give them an option. (sans the first guy, because he had cost too many lives already.

Originally Posted by Butagami

In all seriousness I was surprised Orga gave up on getting his money out of Gyojan. Yeah, he's an asshole, and plotted to have Kudelia killed, but as he said himself. that victory earlier cost them, so that would have come in handy. The last time Mika shot someone so hastily without considering the consequences, he gave birth to Ein...

The guy was never going to pay up. He tried every way other than that to take care of Tekkadan, from calling Nobliss, Gjallerhorn, and even trying to take care of them himself. Also, the man probably didn't have the money anyway to pay double, considering that he was already low on funds in the very beginning and then he hired the pirates, so yeah...

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Spoiler for saving space:

You misunderstand me thinking I wanted it, but that's what the narrative implied, and what was originally planned, yet the finale looks more that it came out of shounen manga than a Gundam series. Happy endings are unsatisfying and lose purpose if the execution of it was poor.

Well, why should their dreams be supported if what they're doing is destabilizing the world and creating more victims like them. You make it sound all earnest and uplifting, but we both know better.

There was a twitter that Okada put out saying for viewers to be patient. That says a lot about the consistency of viewership. Staff members don't put out messages like that when things are going well.

Well, I assume that's mostly due to the merchandise. While ratings were abysmal, the model kits did well enough. I believe Tactics also brought that up.

And what did they use to determine Age was a failure? TV ratings.

As I stated from above, it looks more like it came from a shounen manga than a Gundam series, and lead to tasteless scenes like Ride teasing Eugene and Akihiro about him telling Cookie and Cracker that their brother is dead, and "Hey look, they're still kids. Haha~", as if any of that scene was funny or had any sort of meaning.

Oh, I'm sorry. I just thought we were having a discussion.

Yeah, I knew everything except the part about the original Gundam. And I'm not arguing against being flexible. The finale was a cop-out though with many interventions at the last minute and AV Dues Ex to make it so Tekkadan stood on top. It's not a case that they earned that victory, but plot demanded they have that victory. And if this was indeed planned ahead of time, then that comes off as even worse on Okada and Nagai's part.

This is already veering into “general discussion”-territory so I’ll just answer your post in one fell swoop:

1. Your entire argument was supported on the basis that Nagai somehow made “last minute” decision to have a “happy ending”. That basis is now pretty much gone since two people who know their Japanese, karice67 & tdx (one is the translator for the said interview that you quoted) confirmed that there’s no implication of sudden or “last minute” decision in that interview. Thus, your argument is crumbling down, just like your other argument sometime ago that Mika’s fondness of farming is just a gimmicky trait that the show won’t explore further than the one line Mika uttered, which then disproved by the show itself this season. If you still feel the first season's ending to be jarring, well, then more power to you. Everyone has their own opinion and we're not trying to change it here.
   
2. Oh, and AGE was an overall disaster in almost every sales department (and probably not much streaming either), not just a flop in TV ratings.
   
3. About source & evidence of infrequent "last minute" changes in two-cour hand-drawn mecha series: The lack of examples is in favor of my argument. You’re the one who raise the issue of common “last minute” decision. So you should be the one that prove that it frequently/commonly occurs by giving us examples in the span of a certain year or decade. And I think I’m already generous enough by giving you Evangelion as an example of “last minute” decision which isn’t that common for two-cour 2-D handdrawn mech series. I could’ve left you cold there.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

This is already veering into “general discussion”-territory so I’ll just answer your post in one fell swoop:

1. Your entire argument was supported on the basis that Nagai somehow made “last minute” decision to have a “happy ending”. That basis is now pretty much gone since two people who know their Japanese, karice67 & tdx (one is the translator for the said interview that you quoted) confirmed that there’s no implication of sudden or “last minute” decision in that interview. Thus, your argument is crumbling down, just like your other argument sometime ago that Mika’s fondness of farming is just a gimmicky trait that the show won’t explore further than the one line Mika uttered, which then disproved by the show itself this season. If you still feel the first season's ending to be jarring, well, then more power to you. Everyone has their own opinion and we're not trying to change it here.
   
2. Oh, and AGE was an overall disaster in almost every sales department (and probably not much streaming either), not just a flop in TV ratings.
   
3. About source & evidence of infrequent "last minute" changes in two-cour hand-drawn mecha series: The lack of examples is in favor of my argument. You’re the one who raise the issue of common “last minute” decision. So you should be the one that prove that it frequently/commonly occurs by giving us examples in the span of a certain year or decade. And I think I’m already generous enough by giving you Evangelion as an example of “last minute” decision which isn’t that common for two-cour 2-D handdrawn mech series. I could’ve left you cold there.

Yeah, I like how you handwave my entire argument based on the one thing I was wrong on. As I said before in my last comment, if this was indeed planned ahead of time, then that reflects even worse on Okada and Nagai, because then, the finale was ahead of time going to be this cluster of convenient occurrences one after another to have Tekkadan come out on top. So yeah, thanks a lot. You've helped prove the narrative was flawed from the very beginning.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Yeah, I like how you handwave my entire argument based on the one thing I was wrong on. As I said before in my last comment, if this was indeed planned ahead of time, then that reflects even worse on Okada and Nagai, because then, the finale was ahead of time going to be this cluster of convenient occurrences one after another to have Tekkadan come out on top. So yeah, thanks a lot. You've helped prove the narrative was flawed from the very beginning.

Which conveniences you're talking about? I think most of the things Tekkadan encountered after Biscuit's death are hardly convenient.

Oh, and I've pointed three instances in which you are wrong in my comment above (at least until you disprove my third point).

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Which conveniences you're talking about? I think most of the things Tekkadan encountered after Biscuit's death are hardly convenient.

Oh, and I've pointed three instances in which you are wrong in my comment above (at least until you disprove my third point).

I actually keep asking him/her if they have such and issue with the show why keep watching ? I had issue with Age and Destiny's writing and you know what I did ? I stop watching both before their second half start because it was driving me crazy, why doesn't Kurohane do the same ? I asked them this question and what a shock no reply in this thread what can we take from this ?

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Which conveniences you're talking about? I think most of the things Tekkadan encountered after Biscuit's death are hardly convenient.

Oh, and I've pointed three instances in which you are wrong in my comment above (at least until you disprove my third point).

Okay, I was wrong in two instances (I'll leave three undetermined since it has nothing to do with the discussion now). Doesn't change my point that you ignored the things I was actually valid in. For instance, the key reason we disagree is because we keep looking at things from different perspectives. You look at things from a character perspective; I look at them from a plot one. The conveniences are Ein moving into the city, fulfilling McGillis' gambit of making Gjallarhorn lose face and influence the vote at parliament. If that hadn't happen, it would have been harder for Makanai to have been elected back in. They would lose if he lost. Second, the reinforcements they got from Eugene and the Brewers' human debris complete with mobile workers. Let's not even get into how they got there in the first place. Lastly, AV Deus Ex that Mikazuki used to kill Ein. You can say "Oh, he lost his eye and arm", but it doesn't hinder his ability to pilot in the slightest, meaning it's a false hindrance. It doesn't make him any more vulnerable.

And the whole season was that, the finale just took it up to eleven. It shows that in order to make the kids have a chance, the adults have to be incompetent, stupid or both. Most of them are these caricatures you would see in cartoon shows; and the few decent ones are killed off. The only one on the opposition worth any brain cells is McGillis, and he sacrificed his friends for his ambitions! The few times Mikazuki was in trouble, things were already in place to have him bailed out. There was literally no tension. Even a good portion of the fanbase acknowledge how unstoppable he is. Just reading through comments from the previous episode on other sites, most of them were about how Julietta signed her death warrant and how Mikazuki was about to wreck her.

I want to know how far season 2 goes in it's content and if it is essentially the same formula as season 1. That's why I stick around, darkone. I'm not losing anything by doing it, just voicing my criticism, which for some reason automatically equates to me hating on the show. I don't hate shows or characters; that's stupid. At most, I just get disappointed on the wasted potential. I'm not saying this is a bad show, just a flawed one.

[wissenschaft]

Kurohane, what show is your avatar from? I must know. lol

[Rising Dragon]

Toradora! is the anime from his avatar.