Vivid Strike! - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Rising Dragon]

Until we know more of Jill's motivations, I'm not sure how any of us are capable of really criticizing her actions at this deep a level because we have no idea why she is like she is. We have no idea how much of an influence she really has over Rinne.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Part of my point is that she didn't know they were weaklings. She went anyway.


Fights in a legal venue where everyone's a volunteer.




I'm just saying. By anime standards, the "worst" savior would have gotten Rinne into a death cult for the sake of some baroque plan to conquer the world.



"The wounded want power, nothing else; they think it will keep them from being hurt again." ("The Borders of Infinity", Lois McMaster Bujold)

It isn't hard to understand Rinne. She's been hurt. Badly. She thinks her new strength will keep her from being hurt again.


I think Jill just believes in what she does. Including belief that it's the best thing for Rinne. She's a bit young to call herself a "former" martial artist. She was probably traumatized by an encounter with a greater natural talent than herself. That led her to believe that only talent mattered. So she nurtured Rinne's, believing that was both enough, and the best thing to do. And hopefully taught her to stand up for herself. Rinne was so ready to be a punching ball.


Of course she can be criticized. I just don't think there's any malice to what she does. Just her own psychological hangups.

Fair enough, I retract the "worst" line because as you said it just welcomes people to speculate about what other sort of freaks could have picked her up instead. That said, she is still utterly horrible. Did you not see her expressions? In front of others she acts all sweet and nice, and then once she's done she has this look that shows neither kindness nor happiness, like it was really just part of a plan, and when she's watching Rinne utterly destroying her opponents and crushing their spirits, she has a very, VERY evil smile on her face. The look she had as she talked about demonstrating that those with talent destroy those without was oozing with malice, so no I cannot agree with your assessment of her being simply convicted and convinced that she's helping Rinne.

And anyway, as has been mentioned, even if she did mean well her actions have not helped Rinne past the initial rescue. Instead, she's twisted her healing so that her painful scars won't leave, and she's obsessed with winning in a sport she has no legitimate interest in. She doesn't want to be the champion, and she doesn't want to test her limits, and she doesn't want to experience the thrill of those limits being pushed in an all-out battle. To her this is just a way to create an imaginary shield, a crutch that she can hold herself up on, telling herself "I's OK, I'm strong now, there's no one who can hurt me." There's no self-worth there, and no success, just a desperate cry for some kind of reassurance that it will be OK and all she's been given is "the strong hurt the weak, so become the strong".

Much of this is clear, at least to me, in the way she fights. She's not looking for a good fight or even in her opponent. As I said, her opponents matter very little beyond their rank, to the point that even if she thinks they're good people and hopes she doesn't cause permanent injury, she still doesn't even care enough to learn their names except when she has to find them again for a rematch.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Fair enough, I retract the "worst" line because as you said it just welcomes people to speculate about what other sort of freaks could have picked her up instead. That said, she is still utterly horrible. Did you not see her expressions? In front of others she acts all sweet and nice, and then once she's done she has this look that shows neither kindness nor happiness, like it was really just part of a plan, and when she's watching Rinne utterly destroying her opponents and crushing their spirits, she has a very, VERY evil smile on her face. The look she had as she talked about demonstrating that those with talent destroy those without was oozing with malice, so no I cannot agree with your assessment of her being simply convicted and convinced that she's helping Rinne.

Yeah, but the thing is, she herself is one of those with no talent. It's just an assumption, but that's what I made of her "former martial artist" line. She didn't teach Rinne brutality because she's a bully, but because she believes that that's what works.

And anyway, as has been mentioned, even if she did mean well her actions have not helped Rinne past the initial rescue. Instead, she's twisted her healing so that her painful scars won't leave,

Rinne's parents, with all their love and nurturing, haven't healed her either. So what's anyone supposed to do? Sometimes it's not that simple.

And at least, now no one messes with Rinne.

and she's obsessed with winning in a sport she has no legitimate interest in. She doesn't want to be the champion, and she doesn't want to test her limits, and she doesn't want to experience the thrill of those limits being pushed in an all-out battle. To her this is just a way to create an imaginary shield, a crutch that she can hold herself up on, telling herself "I's OK, I'm strong now, there's no one who can hurt me." There's no self-worth there, and no success, just a desperate cry for some kind of reassurance that it will be OK and all she's been given is "the strong hurt the weak, so become the strong".

Much of this is clear, at least to me, in the way she fights. She's not looking for a good fight or even in her opponent. As I said, her opponents matter very little beyond their rank, to the point that even if she thinks they're good people and hopes she doesn't cause permanent injury, she still doesn't even care enough to learn their names except when she has to find them again for a rematch.

I'm not fond of that line of thought. I don't think there are "legitimate" and "illegitimate" reasons to want to practice a sport, short of being held at gunpoint. Some do it for fun, some do it for money... Rinne doesn't do it for those reasons, or to make friends, but she does find value in the strength it both raises in her and validates. You call it a crutch? Fine, then. But crutches aren't evil. They're tools to help those who can't stand and walk on their own.

[FlameSparkZ]

After watcing episode 3 again, I realized Rinne's transformation scene was hinting at her situation, which we only got flashes at the end of that same episode, and then the full reveal at episode 4.

So yeah, a diamond/rose-themed transformation, but with heavy focus on thorns surrounding her, each piece of her barrier jacket materializing after that body part is wrapped in thorny vines...the hint was there, but I didn't think much of it at the time

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, but the thing is, she herself is one of those with no talent. It's just an assumption, but that's what I made of her "former martial artist" line. She didn't teach Rinne brutality because she's a bully, but because she believes that that's what works.

Again, look at her face during the fight. I'd be very reluctant to say she's not a bully. She might not have had the power to bully fighters before, but it's far from unheard of for a victim of bullying to revel in their power to cause harm once they find a way to inflict pain on others; the same is true of those who view themselves as victims due to their own insecurities (like if a martial artist views losses as attacks and the faces of the victor as arrogant and condescending). It doesn't matter whether she had talent or not, or whether she won any matches or not, none of that means she's not a bully or that she had any good intentions when she took the child in and convinced her that the only way to avoid pain is to annihilate anyone who might be able to hurt her.

Rinne's parents, with all their love and nurturing, haven't healed her either. So what's anyone supposed to do? Sometimes it's not that simple.

And at least, now no one messes with Rinne.

It's pretty clear that her parents have been trying, with all the attention they give her, but she's blocking them out. We have a pair that's always supporting Rinne and asking how she is, whether she's happy, and we have a person that's telling her to trample those weaker than her; frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to place much blame on the former or to act like the latter's to any extent redeemed by their inability to stop what's happened. Even before the incident, she'd already developed a very good skill of pretending that everything is alright around them so they don't worry. They may not have really been able to help her much, but we haven't seen one thing to suggest she hurt her. We've seen plenty of evidence that Jill has been actively teaching Rinne that it's the natural order for the powerful to harm the weak, and gleefully encouraging her to become more powerful than anyone and demonstrate it with brutal impunity. That is not a sort of lesson you should teach a victim, that the strong prey on the weak and the way to protect yourself is to gain and demonstrate the ability to utterly destroy anyone who faces you. I'm sorry, but I cannot believe a person has good intentions when she talks of demonstrating undefeatable power with the sort of smile and tone she had.

I'm not fond of that line of thought. I don't think there are "legitimate" and "illegitimate" reasons to want to practice a sport, short of being held at gunpoint. Some do it for fun, some do it for money... Rinne doesn't do it for those reasons, or to make friends, but she does find value in the strength it both raises in her and validates. You call it a crutch? Fine, then. But crutches aren't evil. They're tools to help those who can't stand and walk on their own.

I didn't say "legitimate REASON" I said "legitimate INTEREST". The difference is subtle but it exists. A person can have no interest in something and still pursue it for any number of reasons, good or bad. But an interest means the person's heart resonates with it in some sense, that the person is actually looking at it with some degree of passion. And that's why she may have a legitimate, if not necessarily healthy, reason, but she most certainly does not have any legitimate interest. She's never shown the slightest actual interest in her opponents or the fight; her face is always cold and indifferent, as if she's doing a job rather than participating in a sport. It's just a means to an end, that end being an illusion that will be hard to maintain and will frankly do nothing to help her heal. I'd rather label it as what psychologists call "coping", a method to try and make like something's OK that often has no positive effects.