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Old 2018-05-28, 18:56   Link #3461
wissenschaft
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Actually, thats an important fact I missed. It could explain why Dr. Franxx is given so much leyway in his research since APE themselves are scientists. Though as Kanon points out, it is odd for a group of scientist to hire other scientists to do their research for them.

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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Anyway, the main things I took away from this episode is the fact Klaxosaurs have apparently existed for a long time and have XX chromosomes (the latter makes Hiro all the more important). I've read an interesting theory about the fetuses seen inside Klaxosaurs earlier in the series. Klax princess said Frank deserved a punishment worse than death, so just like how he used her DNA to create "children" of her like Zero Two, she might have used his DNA to create the Klaxosaurs that have been attacking humanity since their encounter, making his punishment being responsible for the death of his own children. It would explain why he never mentioned the fact Klaxosaur had human cores when he examined one of them (kind of a big deal, isn't it?). They just didn't have them yet.
Thats would be a cool twist. It would mean that the Klaxosaurs have been actively trying to improve themselves to combat their enemy much the same humanity has done. Since the princess is psychic, is she aware of zerotwo? Her dialogue seems to imply that she knows of APE's existence, and if she can read minds then learning about APE would be easy. We still don't know what the connection between the princess and APE's end goal is, why do they need her? We don't even know why Klaxosaurs are attracted to magma.

A possible ending to the show is Hiro, having become a male human/Klaxosaur hybrid, goes with zerotwo to live with the Klaxosaurs and bring peace to the world.
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Old 2018-05-28, 19:00   Link #3462
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
To be fair, APE being scientists was part of Frank's narration. He could be an unreliable narrator. He doesn't seem to know much more about them than we do. He's never seen their faces and he doesn't know where they come from. They seem to know things like the fact magma could make people immortal, but not how to make them a reality, hence their need to hire real scientists like Frank and his wife. They're credited for the mining technology but for all we know, they just went to some scientists and told them "we can use magma as an energy source, build us something to mine it", exactly like they did with Frank with immortality.
The possibility of a misleading narration is there, but I think it's quite small, especially when the other narration in past episodes has been correct so far. For example, Hiro's narration about the surgery that Mitsure underwent. This show has been using narration to give us the some necessary info.

There's also the problem of purpose. What will unreliable narration add to the show's story? Is the show gonna reveal that the APE members were not scientists all along? For what?
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Old 2018-05-28, 19:08   Link #3463
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Actually, thats an important fact I missed. It could explain why Dr. Franxx is given so much leyway in his research since APE themselves are scientists. Though as Kanon points out, it is odd for a group of scientist to hire other scientists to do their research for them.
What's odd about it? Scientists head research groups. Scientists hire other scientists, to either bring new knowledge that they don't have, or delegate some tasks they simply don't have the time to do themselves. Most scientists actually working in laboratories are young ones. Career scientists mostly spend their time organising and planning other people's work. It's perfectly logical that, if they wanted to branch out in biological research while their main field was energetics, they'd hire geneticists, or whatever Frank was.
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Old 2018-05-28, 19:09   Link #3464
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Actually if the APE council does turn out to have links to the ancient civilization they might have just been claiming to be scientists to explain where all the tech came from. The only people we see doing research are employees.
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Old 2018-05-28, 19:17   Link #3465
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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
Actually if the APE council does turn out to have links to the ancient civilization they might have just been claiming to be scientists to explain where all the tech came from. The only people we see doing research are employees.
They can simply be both: scientists who also have connection to the ancient civilization (or vice versa, however you like it). It's that simple. I mean, why wasting time misleading audience for a twist about something trivial like that?
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Old 2018-05-28, 19:23   Link #3466
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
What's odd about it?
The odd part is having scientist own (and therefore decide who is going to be the CEO who in turn decides what will the company research budget will be spent on) the companies they work for. Case in point, Monsanto does a lot of research but I do not think that the shareholders are scientists themselves.

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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
Actually if the APE council does turn out to have links to the ancient civilization ...
Dunno if someone has already thought about the possibility that they ARE part of an ancient civilization (hence the masks) *cough*pillar men*cough*. Just the other day there was this article about how any trace of really ancient (think millions of years) civilization would be wiped from the face of the earth by tectonic plate movements.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...zation/557180/
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Old 2018-05-28, 21:11   Link #3467
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
They can simply be both: scientists who also have connection to the ancient civilization (or vice versa, however you like it). It's that simple. I mean, why wasting time misleading audience for a twist about something trivial like that?
It is rather standard for aliens, time travelers, or crosstime travelers to claim to be scientific geniuses to explain their access to higher tech levels. So if that is what they were doing they were doing it to fool the normal humans not the audience.
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Old 2018-05-29, 00:27   Link #3468
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The knowledge the APE group has demonstrated, in addition to their abhorrence of human proclivities such as procreation and emotion, imply to me that they themselves are not human. Additionally, an important observation is that though they are introduced as scientists in Franxx's monologue, he specifically notes that Noone knows their origins.

That they knew "where the queen was" suggests to me that they knew about the Klaxxosaurs in advance, and that mining magma would eventually antagonize them.

While not a perfect show, I find it solid enough to enjoy with how its gone about its story. Animation-wise its beautiful, but its also sad that the current state of the anime industry requires two studios to collaborate to have what we are watching. We haven't had to deal with enormous long escalator pans, long elevator stills, watercolor backgrounds, or other things good shows had due to crunch and pressure.

I also like that by not being yet another Light Novel adaptation, this has allowed the show to have a slightly different structure than a large percentage of other titles that have aired during recent memory. Also, not being Sunrise, this show doesn't suffer from having to beat you over the head with a horse about War Being Bad. It has its own messaging/themes, yes. But at least it isn't that one.

I'm having fun with the show, and am happy its on the list of things I'm watching while waiting for Code Geass Resurrection later this year.
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Old 2018-05-29, 00:30   Link #3469
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Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Did I miss something, are they scientist? *checks episode oops? I thought they weren't. lol

Though it does seem they didn't create magma energy. They created new mining technology to dig up the magma energy. Which implies the energy was in the ground already. Hmm, it makes me wonder if APE knew magma energy was in the ground already before they started drilling for it. Why else would you develop mining technology without knowing of a use for it before hand?
That's like saying no one invented nuclear energy because they only dug up and processed uranium that was already in the ground.

Quote:
I wonder if that Lamarck Club will come up again. Probably not but Lamarck is the name of one of early proponents of evolution, Jean-Baptiste Lamarck.
Yes, and through a mechanism that has been disproved, but remains popular in fiction.
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Old 2018-05-29, 00:41   Link #3470
wissenschaft
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's like saying no one invented nuclear energy because they only dug up and processed uranium that was already in the ground.
Wouldn't the correct term would be discovered nuclear energy. People invented the atom bomb, they discovered nuclear energy. The difference being whether or not Magma energy existed before APE came along and started mining it.
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Old 2018-05-29, 00:51   Link #3471
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's like saying no one invented nuclear energy because they only dug up and processed uranium that was already in the ground.
As a matter of fact, yes, mining/enriching yellow cake and making a nuclear reactor are separate things. As an example, ATM it is child play to get pure Thorium, but we have yet to create a non experimental molten salt reactor that generates electricity with with, even if it safer (no Three Mile or Chernobyl or Fukushima molten core) and produces little radioactive waste.
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Old 2018-05-29, 02:48   Link #3472
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
It is rather standard for aliens, time travelers, or crosstime travelers to claim to be scientific geniuses to explain their access to higher tech levels. So if that is what they were doing they were doing it to fool the normal humans not the audience.
Yes, that's the standard, but do you really want this show to be even more mediocre than it already is? Me, I actually want this show to be better and so I suggested the "scientists but also aliens/future-men/dimension-men/etc"-idea or vice versa however you like it (I mean, advanced aliens has scientists among them, right? Like Kryptonians). The show can have it both ways and that will actually give a new spin to the standard cliche where the mysterious scientists turn out to be just aliens or *insert other plain description here*.
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Old 2018-05-29, 05:56   Link #3473
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Images
APEs
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Looking at this picture, it seems that a number of the core members are missing. I recognize the huge guy to still be in the APE council and the woman is present as well. The tiny one recently got killed, and one of the two that are fully draped in the black garb has to be Papa. I cannot, however, place the two guys whose hair is exposed.


Spoiler for Owl:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Anyway, the main things I took away from this episode is the fact Klaxosaurs have apparently existed for a long time and have XX chromosomes (the latter makes Hiro all the more important). I've read an interesting theory about the fetuses seen inside Klaxosaurs earlier in the series. Klax princess said Frank deserved a punishment worse than death, so just like how he used her DNA to create "children" of her like Zero Two, she might have used his DNA to create the Klaxosaurs that have been attacking humanity since their encounter, making his punishment being responsible for the death of his own children. It would explain why he never mentioned the fact Klaxosaur had human cores when he examined one of them (kind of a big deal, isn't it?). They just didn't have them yet.
Dr Franxx noted that he observed in the dead Klaxosaur XX chromosomes. I don't know why, but for some reason that seemed to really fill him with dread. We might never know why that is so concerning to him.

The klaxosaurs that are near the princess never have their core exposed. I also wonder if the Klaxosaur princess couldn't just up and create a klaxosaur that has XY chromosomes if that were the case. Finally I wonder what happens if the fetus in the core starts to grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Actually, thats an important fact I missed. It could explain why Dr. Franxx is given so much leyway in his research since APE themselves are scientists. Though as Kanon points out, it is odd for a group of scientist to hire other scientists to do their research for them.

Thats would be a cool twist. It would mean that the Klaxosaurs have been actively trying to improve themselves to combat their enemy much the same humanity has done. Since the princess is psychic, is she aware of zerotwo? Her dialogue seems to imply that she knows of APE's existence, and if she can read minds then learning about APE would be easy. We still don't know what the connection between the princess and APE's end goal is, why do they need her? We don't even know why Klaxosaurs are attracted to magma.

A possible ending to the show is Hiro, having become a male human/Klaxosaur hybrid, goes with zerotwo to live with the Klaxosaurs and bring peace to the world.
You have to remember that APE specifically sought out Dr. Franxx. That is because in contrary to most scientists, Franxx has an expertise in a field that's very gray ethically and he personally has crossed the line very often with little care. It's normal that APE would scout him, as he's the one who has the talents and the drive to give them what they want without asking many questions. One of the reasons they give Franxx a lot of leeway is primarily because of Franxx' disposition. They know he won't openly seek to oppose them or raise the ethical issues to what they've been doing. He's a perfect fit for them. Subsequently he also ensured solutions against Klaxosaurs and was responsible for the creation of plantations.

We only know that Zero Two is vaguely aware (and scared) of Klax-hime. Considering Klax-hime's psychic abilities, we can only infer that she's very aware of Zero Two, despite the range. What I mean by this is that whatever signals of resonance Zero Two is sensing, Klax-hime can most likely sense them even better and more accurately. TL;DR: Klax-hime has a better sonar system.

We don't know why klaxosaurs are attracted to magma, but we do know that they're allegedly a mix between non-organic and bio-organic material, like part machine part creature. Personally for now I'm just going with "magma is a resource of some sorts for Klaxosaurs, which makes their conflict with the APEs a fight over resources between man and beast".


I think we're going to get such an ending, but I also have my apprehensions towards that theory. Mainly because it really depends on Klax-hime's opinion of both Hiro and Zero Two. Hiro being rather pure minded helps, but even he wanted nothing other than climbing into a Franxx and make himself useful at one point. And Zero Two, well, she might be part of Klax-hime's "brethren", but that would make Zero Two's actions even more inexcusable towards klax-hime. There's no one whose killed more klaxosaurs than her and the Nines. Also, Zero Two has some very human looking skin for someone so similar to klax-hime.

In the end, the duo is both perpetrator and victim. But will klax-hime care about that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
The odd part is having scientist own (and therefore decide who is going to be the CEO who in turn decides what will the company research budget will be spent on) the companies they work for. Case in point, Monsanto does a lot of research but I do not think that the shareholders are scientists themselves.

Dunno if someone has already thought about the possibility that they ARE part of an ancient civilization (hence the masks) *cough*pillar men*cough*. Just the other day there was this article about how any trace of really ancient (think millions of years) civilization would be wiped from the face of the earth by tectonic plate movements.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...zation/557180/
Isn't that rather similar to tech companies these days? They too, tend to be spearheaded by the very own people with the field knowledge.

I do think that the APE organization knows a lot more about this world than any other group, so it wouldn't be odd if they knew where klaxosaurs came from and them having similar ties as well.
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Old 2018-05-29, 06:54   Link #3474
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Originally Posted by Norn View Post
I think we're going to get such an ending, but I also have my apprehensions towards that theory. Mainly because it really depends on Klax-hime's opinion of both Hiro and Zero Two. Hiro being rather pure minded helps, but even he wanted nothing other than climbing into a Franxx and make himself useful at one point. And Zero Two, well, she might be part of Klax-hime's "brethren", but that would make Zero Two's actions even more inexcusable towards klax-hime. There's no one whose killed more klaxosaurs than her and the Nines. Also, Zero Two has some very human looking skin for someone so similar to klax-hime.

In the end, the duo is both perpetrator and victim. But will klax-hime care about that?
A scenario that this show raises perfectly in parallel with real life that we're both perpetrators and victims.

The higher-ups and echelons that plan the wars are the masterminds engineering the conflicts, however, the rest of the world always witnesses or heard the news on the soldiers, messengers, or pawns actually doing the dirty deeds and sully their hands in order to accomplish the objectives, missions, and strategies required to win the war or succeeding to subdue the enemy; that's a fact of war.

Other anime bring this topic and manage to properly execute it. Take, for example, the Ishbal Massacre told and exposed in FullMetal Alchemist and FullMetal Alchemist Brotherhood.
Spoiler:


Whenever Hiro and Zero Two, eventually, encounter Klaxx-hime for sure that stand-off will be tense given that they indiscriminately slaughtered Hime's cohorts and children, and, just as you said, Klaxx-hime won't care at all about their motivations, whether they were ordered to, lied to, compelled to, or wishful thinking to make themselves useful, but she'll be steely focused and pissed-off about their actions.

When that moment happens (hopefully so) I don't wish this show pulls out a SUNRISE on the audience.
Spoiler:
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Old 2018-05-29, 09:46   Link #3475
Magewolf
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Yes, that's the standard, but do you really want this show to be even more mediocre than it already is? Me, I actually want this show to be better and so I suggested the "scientists but also aliens/future-men/dimension-men/etc"-idea or vice versa however you like it (I mean, advanced aliens has scientists among them, right? Like Kryptonians). The show can have it both ways and that will actually give a new spin to the standard cliche where the mysterious scientists turn out to be just aliens or *insert other plain description here*.
I was just pointing out that being called scientists in that context meant very little.

My guess is that APE was made up of a mix of humans and something else and I would not be surprised at some or all of them being scientists of some sort.

Actually we may end up with a Dr. Hell(APE) vs an even more amoral Juzo Kabuto(Dr.Frank) situation.
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Old 2018-05-29, 10:52   Link #3476
wissenschaft
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Klaxosaur having XX chromosomes isn't that big a deal. They could be like ants, where most ants are female and the few male ants are for mating only.

Now, if the Klaxosaurs have human XX chromosomes then that means something entirely different. We then have to ask what relation exists between Klaxosaurs and Humans.
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Old 2018-05-29, 11:00   Link #3477
Kanon
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Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Klaxosaur having XX chromosomes isn't that big a deal. They could be like ants, where most ants are female and the few male ants are for mating only.

Now, if the Klaxosaurs have human XX chromosomes then that means something entirely different. We then have to ask what relation exists between Klaxosaurs and Humans.
Frank said their XX chromosomes were similar to that of humans (maybe even the same, I can't remember), so it's the latter. Why would he be so shocked otherwise?
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Old 2018-05-29, 11:50   Link #3478
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
They can simply be both: scientists who also have connection to the ancient civilization (or vice versa, however you like it). It's that simple. I mean, why wasting time misleading audience for a twist about something trivial like that?
The Klaxx princess did say the masked APE dudes were "fake humans". But it could be a translation problem with the subs i watched since no one mentioned this. If it's right, it kinda goes along with the theory of APE being something more than what we got so far.
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Old 2018-05-29, 12:39   Link #3479
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Read the articles about bad writings -> compare it to Franxx and you can see that Franxx has those elements of bad writing in it. You're at least smart enough to do that, aren't you?

Of course, no outside blogs or websites will have my personal take on the anime because I'm the source. Do you have outside websites that writes your analysis if you don't write them yourself? Of course not.
Eh, I actually think one shouldn't have to be consulting some resource or person to decide if a work makes any sense to them or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Anyway, the main things I took away from this episode is the fact Klaxosaurs have apparently existed for a long time and have XX chromosomes (the latter makes Hiro all the more important). I've read an interesting theory about the fetuses seen inside Klaxosaurs earlier in the series. Klax princess said Frank deserved a punishment worse than death, so just like how he used her DNA to create "children" of her like Zero Two, she might have used his DNA to create the Klaxosaurs that have been attacking humanity since their encounter, making his punishment being responsible for the death of his own children. It would explain why he never mentioned the fact Klaxosaur had human cores when he examined one of them (kind of a big deal, isn't it?). They just didn't have them yet.
Although that still leaves the whole thread of the initial attacks hanging, meaning the princess is still the instigator of the war
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Old 2018-05-29, 12:51   Link #3480
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Klaxosaur having XX chromosomes isn't that big a deal. They could be like ants, where most ants are female and the few male ants are for mating only.

Now, if the Klaxosaurs have human XX chromosomes then that means something entirely different. We then have to ask what relation exists between Klaxosaurs and Humans.
Fun fact: not every animal species has an X/Y chromosomal basis for sex determination. For example, in birds we have females that are ZW and males that are ZZ, and sex is determined by egg, not sperm. In ants things are even weirder:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-sex-ants.html

Though the record for outright craziness might go, as it often does, to the platypus, aka the result of that one time evolution passed out drunk on the couch:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The platypus has ten sex chromosomes; males have an XYXYXYXYXY pattern while females have ten X chromosomes.
So yeah. He said XX chromosomes and specifically said they're human chromosomes. Which again is a callback to EVA, where the Angels had human DNA (because they were alternative versions of humanity or something).
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