(CR) Seishun Buta Yarou Series

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I think this is a matter of will and consciousness. A carrot does not have a will of its own. A human has his or her own will and consciousness. The whole issue was referred to the consciousness of Mai wanting to disappear at first, so in that regards, it is her human will that is causing her problems. In that same regards, Sakuta has his own will, so he wouldn't disappear in front of other people if Mai held on to him. Therefore, the carrot, since it doesn't have its own will, will disappear with Mai, similar to how Mai's clothing also cannot be seen by others.

Lol. As I had suspected, this show will potentially generate pseudo-philosophical musings such as these, and make for very interesting discussion.

That's a very nice theory you've put up, and it echoes the epistemology of Arthur Schopenhauer, who argued that reason alone will never allow us to "know" the true, "inner" nature of objects around us. It's a very complicated philosophy, so I won't pretend to be clever enough to explain it the way the anime presented the conundrum of Schroedinger's cat.

Anyway, the point about conscious desire is probably part of the key — if not the key — to understanding how this so-called Adolescent Syndrome works. Futaba had assumed it was an observation problem, but given the way people are literally forgetting Mai's existence, it's clear it's not observation alone that determines the object's reality, but also its desire to exist.

So, the question is, what does Mai actually desire? Sakuta had observed that Mai was not being honest with herself, with regard to her desire to return to acting. I suspect that there's actually something more fundamental to her predicament: Mai is not being honest about her innermost desire to be liked for who she is, and not what she is.

And I think it's easy to see where I'm going with this. Sakuta will likely prove to be her "white knight", just as Koyomi was for Hitagi.

[SeaDoor]

There is something enjoyable about listening to the conversation between to two mains. The writer and voice director have a nice ear for genuine dialog.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

[QUOTEEX=Frontier;6285213]
I think this is a matter of will and consciousness. A carrot does not have a will of its own. A human has his or her own will and consciousness. The whole issue was referred to the consciousness of Mai wanting to disappear at first, so in that regards, it is her human will that is causing her problems. In that same regards, Sakuta has his own will, so he wouldn't disappear in front of other people if Mai held on to him. Therefore, the carrot, since it doesn't have its own will, will disappear with Mai, similar to how Mai's clothing also cannot be seen by others.

I'm actually kind of curious how much people need to be cognizant of Mai for her to have any kind of effect on them.

Like, say she grabbed onto that older gentleman whom she was waving the carrot in front of. Would he have felt her at all? Would he have mentally written it off in a way like how Mai's name was erased from cell phones or writing?

That couple she bumped into in the flashback last episode didn't even seem to register that they had bumped into something. Would that hold true for her other physical interactions with people?

[kari-no-sugata II]

Enjoying the dialogue a lot!

Could have done without the poor attempt at invoking quantum physics though.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I think this is a matter of will and consciousness. A carrot does not have a will of its own. A human has his or her own will and consciousness. The whole issue was referred to the consciousness of Mai wanting to disappear at first, so in that regards, it is her human will that is causing her problems. In that same regards, Sakuta has his own will, so he wouldn't disappear in front of other people if Mai held on to him. Therefore, the carrot, since it doesn't have its own will, will disappear with Mai, similar to how Mai's clothing also cannot be seen by others.

Based on this reasoning though, if bunny girl was to hold onto an actual bunny then we'd get a 'magical floating bunny' (assuming the bunny has a will to live and all that).

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Keila

Based on this reasoning though, if bunny girl was to hold onto an actual bunny then we'd get a 'magical floating bunny' (assuming the bunny has a will to live and all that).

Substitue another human for that bunny and you could have a young child floating around like SuperGirl if bunny girl were to twirl her around, feet off the ground.

As with all these pseudo-scientific manga/anime theories, there are always holes in the "logic."

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

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I'm sure the following episodes will determine her true desires, and Sakuta will be the one who figures it out. From the first episode, we can surmise that Mai has disappeared from existence at the end of the month, with Sakuta forgetting about her, too.


Although, that does present the contradiction that if her existence was erased, why did the words he wrote about her still remain? Well, I guess it is in the same vein that Shoko might have disappeared from existence and everyone's record, yet Sakuta still remembers her.

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Originally Posted by Frontier

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Well, I think you answered your question there with the second point. From what I gather, once she is no longer in the existence of a person, any interaction she has with that person will cause the person's consciousness to ignore her or explain it away.

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Originally Posted by Keila

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From what I understand about these sort of thing from the anime, the mind of the person observing the rabbit will adapt and explain things away in which it makes logical sense to that person. Similar to how vision fills in the gap when presented with moving objects that skip in motion (i.e. although an object may skip in its motion, a person can view it as one continuous motion because the mind fills in the gap), the mind will fill in the gap of the illogicalness of a bunny floating. They might just see jumping rabbit or something along those lines, as the mind will compensate and show what makes sense.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

the mind will fill in the gap of the illogicalness of a bunny floating. They might just see jumping rabbit or something along those lines, as the mind will compensate and show what makes sense.

Douglas Adams book, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy had the Somebody Else's Problem field generator that did something like that, it made things and people invisible to others not by actually making them invisible but by convincing the others to ignore them. They might be discomfited for a second or two but they'll get on with life afterwards and never remember what it was they had seen that seemed so unusual for brief time.

I figure Mai's version of Adolescence Syndrome is a bit like this, she's fading away rather than disappearing, people are forgetting her even though she was a popular actress and, more and more, ignoring her even when she's in front of them.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

From what I understand about these sort of thing from the anime, the mind of the person observing the rabbit will adapt and explain things away in which it makes logical sense to that person. Similar to how vision fills in the gap when presented with moving objects that skip in motion (i.e. although an object may skip in its motion, a person can view it as one continuous motion because the mind fills in the gap), the mind will fill in the gap of the illogicalness of a bunny floating. They might just see jumping rabbit or something along those lines, as the mind will compensate and show what makes sense.

You mean like explained here: https://iflscience.com/brain/this-ne...-doesnt-exist/


The problem with that is how multiple 'observers' will come to their own conclusions about an event and if they 'talk' to each other about it there (in theory) should be differences.


I'm not really too invested either way, I love the story thus far (whether it makes sense or not)

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by Keila

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Yes, this is one example of how the brain compensates. There are others. However, by putting this example up, you also indirectly answered your dilemma that you mentioned. In the example you provided, everyone's brain concluded the same result. Hence, multiple observers will probably end up seeing the same thing or the same effect for the "floating bunny" example.

[TinyRedLeaf]

I agree it's best not to think too hard about pseudo anime science. Like others, I also found the reference to the Shroedinger's Cat conundrum a bit too forced. Moreover, it's clear that the author misunderstood the actual point of the thought experiment: It was deliberately designed to be absurd, as Shroedinger was trying to show how ridiculous it is to suggest that quantum objects can behave as both particles and waves at the same time.

...but it's fun to speculate!

So, I'm prepared for now to accept the "Adolescent Syndrome" at face value. And I do think it's fun metaphor for more mundane issues like coping with ostracism, bullying and poor self-esteem, which are the real problems being presented here.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

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Originally Posted by Keila

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Yes, this is one example of how the brain compensates. There are others. However, by putting this example up, you also indirectly answered your dilemma that you mentioned. In the example you provided, everyone's brain concluded the same result. Hence, multiple observers will probably end up seeing the same thing or the same effect for the "floating bunny" example.

I was more alluding to how 'eye-witness' testimony is not necessarily reliable and what people think they see isn't necessarily reality.

+ This as an example: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr...-fine-20120423
+ Some others (like the invisible gorilla in the middle of people throwing basketballs, etc)

[MeoTwister5]

Having only seen episode 1 so far due to time constraints, I seem to have s lightly different observation on the factors affecting Mai's "existence" and how she slowly fades away from people's memories.

In my case, I'm more attuned to the belief that rather than how the individual sees itself, or if whether one is even observed by others, but more of how the person is perceived by others and whether or not one remains in the nature others believe you to be.

The episode clearly establishes who Mai is growing up and up to the point she went on hiatus. I'm not sure how long it's been but clearly her problem of slowly disappearing from the perception of others only began when she no longer became the TV star she used to be during childhood. That being said, she seems to clearly have stopped existing in the manner of which people know her to be. Because she stopped being how the public knew her to be, she stopped existing as a person altogether. That is to say that if if you knew nothing about her beyond what she was on TV, then she stopped existing in reality which you perceive to be, because you are unaware of her being able to exist in any other fashion. Sakuta and her sister's ability to still see her apparently supports this:

1. Sakuta, because she knows of her beyond what the general public eye knows her, is able to perceive her because she knows of her existence not simply tied to being a TV star.
2. Sakuta's sister, primarily because this was apparently her first time learning of Mai's existence. Because she doesn't know who Mai was as a TV star and only know her as Sakuta's upper classman, she knows she exists as the latter and not limited by the former.
3. Mai's manager, who calls her up, because I assume he still sees her as the former TV star she was.

A second occurrence in episode 1 that seems to support the notion of perception shaping existence is whatever the Hospital Incident is (partly also tied it seems to his sister's bullying issue). In fact it doesn't even seem to matter whether this incident even happened: the episode seems to stress that everyone believes it does whether or not it's true. At the same time, unlike how Mai's predicament is, Sakuta makes no effort to distance himself from the way his classmates see him to be, with the exception of his best friend who clearly treats him different. In this same vein, he develops the scar on his chest that the reporter in the restaurant seems to imply is tied to that incident. Sakuta doesn't know what happened or how her got those scars, but apparently he got it during said incident, and this scar seems to further fuel the rumor mill.

A big implication in this line of reasoning is that, if the way society perceives you is intrinsically tied to whether or not you exist in their eyes, would it mean that if Sakuta stopped going with the flow, would he also stop existing? Sakuta doesn't have this problem because he does not deviate from the status quo of people thinking he's some sort violent loner, while Mai who has rebelled against her childhood TV star past, is slowly disappearing from reality.

One example I can draw upon, if anyone's played the game, is Xion's existence in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. In summary, as an existence who's sole purpose was to hold on to the memories of series MC Sora, the very way s/he looked was uniquely defined by the perceptions of the people s/he encountered, which is why Roxas and Axel saw him/her differently from the antagonists of the series. Likewise, when s/he finally fulfilled her purpose and was no longer who s/he "was" in purpose and perception, s/he was promptly forgotten by everyone in an instant.

This series is apparently hinging on the notion that perception not only defines reality, but existence as well.

Of course this was all just from episode 1, so when I catch up on episode two tomorrow my own uh perception might change as well.

[MeoTwister5]

Episode 2

So it seems that this syndrome isn't simply a loss of existence in the present but it also progresses retroactively in time. It is as if she never existed at all, except for a select few who can still retain knowledge and perception of her existence.

The problem comes out because you sort of have 2 discrete reality bubbles: The people who know Mai and know that she has a present and a past, and those who believe that no such person has ever existed. In episode 1 you could probably have reconciled this difference because you could have limited this discrepancy as a matter of perception only, and not existence as a whole. But with episode 2, you have 2 states where she "exists" and where she "doesn't exist."

This goes back to Futaba using Schroedinger's thought experiment to explain how this situation. The classical interpretation here would be that Mai prior to being observed is merely a probability between 2 or more states of existence. Schroedinger's cat of course challenged the notion that something could be both alive and dead, a blurring of existence so to speak. The problem is that now we have two sets of realities, Mai existing in the middle, and unable to define whether she is either one or both at the same time. The carrot in itself could probably be explained by considering Mai not just the cat but also the box, and the carrot is placed inside this isolated system and becomes subject to the rules of probabilities of existing. The carrot exists again because it was removed from this state of uncertainty.

The problem is that her existing and not existing isn't relegated between two individual realities, but in a single one. One explanation to counter the idea that matter exists as a superimposition of all possibilities is that multiple realities exist, each one accounting for every possible state, diverging at the point of observation. Everyone inhabits the same Japan, the group that sees her and the group that does not, so clearly that isn't the case in this scenario.

It's pretty clear that the only way to solve this is for Sakuta to push Mai's probability of existence towards "existing" rather than not, before she disappears entirely. Going back to the carrot, the method would be similar, that is to say that because the carrot was removed from the box of uncertainty it began to exist again.

Mai's predicament is the same. She needs to get out of this box of uncertainty in order to once again exist. The uncertainty of Adolescence.

This is a very creative and elegant way to personify that age of uncertainty a lot of us have clearly experienced. Personifying a mental and emotional uncertainty with the uncertainty of existing. It's so utterly fascinating.

[germanturkey]

i enjoyed the dialog in ep 1, and absolutely loved it in ep 2. the bit on the train and the hotel room had me smiling like an idiot. who knew this would be my most anticipated show of the season. i hope the bit about crying about not wanting to disappear wasn't foreshadowing. i hope this show delivers. it has really impressed me so far.

[frodonk]

Huh, this series just finished an arc in 3 episodes, that's something you don't see that often.

[Top Sergeant]

Episode 3 was excellent. It really drew you in, and I was grinning during the entire scene on the sports field.

[FlareKnight]

Wrapped up this first arc in three episodes, but felt good in doing it.

I'm with Futaba. Might actually die if I ever had to do what Sakuta did here. Although probably says nothing good about me that there'd be hesitation to step in and save someone's life through doing all that. Either way, good on Sakuta. He did what he could and pulled it off. No hesitation, just ran out there and went for it.

No doubt he left quite the memory through that spectacle. Quite the stunt.

[germanturkey]

wow, they went through that quick. i thought there'd at least be an ep of life without her until they brought her back. i was getting ready for it when she drugged him. my heart could barely take it.. she basically killed herself by letting go of the one person who could still see her.

[Wandering Soul]

So in the end, the key was to make sure everyone became aware of her at once by doing something that couldn't be ignored, instead of the whole "asking random joes" thing they were doing up to that point.

Got to respect Sakuta for his confession. I, much like Futaba would have died of embarrassment if I did something like that.