(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

My condolences to the girl fighting Fern. If she thinks it's possible to shake her up with some banter she's absolutely wasting her breath . Of course I'm sure no one there realizes that Fern is suppressing her magic constantly. So whatever level she thinks Fern is at based on the mana she's detecting, it won't exactly line up with reality. On some level I'm sure she does realize that and it's why things feel off to her.

Love Frieren's teachings throwing shade on the mages of this era. But she's probably not wrong. While some want to use flashy magic, the basics can often be the best way to go about things. Why bother manipulating earth when a simple focused shield and precise magical shots will do the job? Keeping it simple leans into Fern's strengths anyways since she can maximize her speed that way.

Things will likely get tricky for Frieren's team. That old guy seems pretty clever. Of course Frieren isn't lacking skill or experience here. And she knows that she's not invincible so she won't be going into this overconfident. Has lost to humans with weaker magic than herself enough to know that it'll be tough.

No wonder the amount of mages has dropped compared to the Demon King's era if this is how the tests are. An utter disregard to the lives of the people taking the test. I'm sure Frieren would see their goal as being utterly ridiculous. An organization that probably won't even exist in a century is worried about maintaining some extreme quality level for first class mages .

I know some people thought Fern was trash talking, but I wouldn't be surprised if Frieren told her verbatim that ordinary magic is enough to beat the mages of today's era. Fern doesn't strike me as being a trash talker. She's just blunt. I imagine the specialization these modern mages use in their magic make them fight more like demons than the higher-quality of human mages from the past.

Given that there were probably many more demons in the past during the Demon King's reign of terror, I can see why using basic spells to preserve mana and reduce your casting time would be the most efficient way to use magic in battle considering there were more enemies to face. The modern mages of today have not really been pushed since they're living in times of peace.

I personally agree with the need for high-quality first-class mages. In Chihayafuru, a lot of karuta societies allowed for players to promote B-class players to A-class by being the runner-up to 2 consecutive B-class tournaments whereas the Shiranami Society run by Chihaya's sensei only allowed B-class players to become A-class players by winning a B-class tournament. Other societies artificially weakened the quality of the A-class vanguard by sending people unworthy of being there to A-class, which is why the Queen and Meijin could stomp so many players so badly because they had no business being A-class.

I believe Denken is wrong about the quality of mages being irrelevant and believe that the first-class test being dangerous for participants is necessary to weed out those are aren't worthy of being first-class. I also would not be surprised if Frieren's Holy Emblem is equivalent to a first-class certification given her reveal to the Hero's Party that she had it. The way Frieren made it sound, at the time she received it, it was probably an extremely high honour to have and would have been recognized by all mages at the time.

Kanne also saying if only it could rain so that she'd be useful in a fight might be foreshadowing that Frieren doesn't get her first-class certification because the fight will basically be 2v3 with Frieren and Lawine against Denken, Laufen, and Richter, and Frieren will have her hands full trying to keep Kanne alive. The conspiracy theorist in me makes me want to believe that Frieren was specifically grouped with Kanne because for whatever reason the organization wants Frieren to fail the test. I find it suspect that Fern was paired with Ubel, who killed one of the proctors last time, which means she is way above average among the participants. Maybe Fern was paired with her specifically to ensure that Fern's group will pass this test as I doubt the groupings were random given how Kanne and Lawine ended up in the same group.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

She does have that Holy Emblem that keeps getting brought up. I'm assuming she got it from being apart of some organization or at least being recognized as by one, but then again, we don't have any idea what having it means other than it being a suitable replacement for being a 5th - 2nd Class Mage.

No one knew what it was back when she in Himmel's party either, meaning that it dates even further back.

Research on Zoltraak could only happen after she sealed Qual away. Whenever Frieren got the Holy Wand Emblem, it wasn't when humans were studying Zoltraak.

[kari-no-sugata II]

This is entirely my speculation by here's my two cents on the whole Zoltraak thing:

Frieren is not necessarily a reliable narrator - she has a tendency to put herself down. So she might well underplay her involvement with Zoltraak. Frieren did say recently that at the time of the battle with the Demon King that mages were far more common and you'd see them in every town. So I think it's highly likely that Frieren met other mages frequently at the time and discussed things with them - or they would come to discuss things with her, particularly after the defeat of the Demon King.

When Frieren went back to face Qual she was very prepared. She probably started planning for that from the point when Qual was sealed. In other words, Frieren probably would have tried to replicate Zoltraak and come up with a defence even if she hadn't met any other mages. Given how lethal Qual was stated as being, Frieren might be the only mage who faced him and survived.

So in short, I strongly suspect that all the initial work on Zoltraak was done by Frieren for the simple reason that there was (likely) nobody else. One way or another, I suspect she showed her initial results to other mages and they then rapidly developed that. In the meantime, Frieren continued to refine Zoltraak into the demon killing magic she taught Fern, as well as the defensive magic for it.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by GDB

She had the Holy Emblem during her travels with Himmel, though. There was the flashback of her showing it off to that group vs her current group. So it doesn't really tell us what she was doing in those 70 years or so between the end of her adventures with the Hero Party and beginning her training with Fern.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No one knew what it was back when she in Himmel's party either, meaning that it dates even further back.

Research on Zoltraak could only happen after she sealed Qual away. Whenever Frieren got the Holy Wand Emblem, it wasn't when humans were studying Zoltraak.

I didn't really specify research on Zoltraak, I was simply pointing out that some time in the past, Frieren at one point did something to earn that Holy Symbol from an organization, be it through research, cooperation, or achievement. What she did, like I said, is unknown.

[alex_drian]

Fern is the embodiment of "don't fear the man that practice 1000 kicks, fear the man that practice a kick 1000 times".

[Decel]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

When Frieren went back to face Qual she was very prepared. She probably started planning for that from the point when Qual was sealed. In other words, Frieren probably would have tried to replicate Zoltraak and come up with a defence even if she hadn't met any other mages. Given how lethal Qual was stated as being, Frieren might be the only mage who faced him and survived.

So in short, I strongly suspect that all the initial work on Zoltraak was done by Frieren for the simple reason that there was (likely) nobody else. One way or another, I suspect she showed her initial results to other mages and they then rapidly developed that. In the meantime, Frieren continued to refine Zoltraak into the demon killing magic she taught Fern, as well as the defensive magic for it.

This is one of the scenarios that I deem plausible.

We saw that Frieren tends to loop back to a same spot/town/contact, so possibly she taught Zoltraak's composition and maybe simply what components of a spell could negate that. Loop back around 50 years later and her contact would show all the progress made on that tidbit of information.

[Kazu-kun]

But Qual's terror was very well known among human mages. Everyone knew Zoltraak. They didn't need Frieren to tell them about it. So I don't think we can't know for sure how much involvement, if any, she had in the development of the version of zoltraak humanity uses. On top of that, the manga provides a few flashback panels showing the research on Zoltraak and we don't see Frieren around in those panels.

[Twi]

I think what Ludger meant is that Fern and Frieren's version of Zoltraack has qualities that make it exceptionally potent against Demons. Against a non-demon, you're just fighting a Magic Missile spell. Against a demon, you're firing a Disintegrate.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Twi

I think what Ludger meant is that Fern and Frieren's version of Zoltraack has qualities that make it exceptionally potent against Demons. Against a non-demon, you're just fighting a Magic Missile spell. Against a demon, you're firing a Disintegrate.

The thing is, Lugner didn't seem to have faced any other human mages using Zoltraak before, so he has no point of reference. He knows what Fern and Frieren use is not exactly the same as the original Qual Zoltraak, but he does NOT know whether that's a specific version of Zoltraak that Frienren uses or the same version of zoltraak that all human mages use.

If anything, this is yet another evidence that suggests Lugner is just guessing that Frieren helped research Zoltraak. He does not know this for a fact. He's just making assumptions without basis. He has no knowledge of what humanity has been doing since the Demon King died, he has no clue what he's talking about.

And this is something typical of demons. They always make assumptions because they're too biased and too arrogant to see what's really going on around them, and always look down on humanity. That's also the reason Lugner never saw Fern as a threat, and look how that ended up for him.

[Shadow5YA]

I think I'll just invoke Occam's Razor here: the simplest explanation for how Frieren learned the updated, demon-killing Zoltraak is from other human mages.
We've seen that Frieren likes learning magic, no matter how meager, and the current arc does show that every mage treats it as a basic spell.

The burden of proof that Frieren is the one who innovated upon it is much much higher.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

But Qual's terror was very well known among human mages. Everyone knew Zoltraak. They didn't need Frieren to tell them about it. So I don't think we can't know for sure how much involvement, if any, she had in the development of the version of zoltraak humanity uses. On top of that, the manga provides a few flashback panels showing the research on Zoltraak and we don't see Frieren around in those panels.

Yes, but Frieren is the most experienced (?) mage who fights against Qual it will be no surprise if she did help.

We saw this in the Anime also but the part of this was something that talked about the human's hard work so Frieren (who is Alf will not be there).

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I don't think "adored" is the right word given what has been shown about demon emotions...

I think that they can feel admiration at some level...

And about the word that I used:

English (as you already understand) isn't my native language so it's hard for me to find the exact word that I want to use (more than once I just hope that my meaning is clear).

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

We've seen that Frieren loves learning magic and will take any chance to learn any spell, no matter how useless.




Just because she likes learning magic doesn't mean she likes teaching it.

Frieren refused to take in a pupil up until about a decade ago, even to the point where she initially refused Heiter's request to take in Fern.

Considering how detached she was up until recently, and she didn't even know about the biggest human mage organization until recently, it's not likely that she was helping other mages in the past either.

The way that Frieren takes time is a big part of this, she can do something that will take her 50 or 60 years and then just give up on it and she will consider it as no more than a day that she wasted on this. And Frieren does have contact with humans she just doesn't take a travel friend because of reasons that she already mentioned (that of course before she meets Fern).

By the way, Frieren fights against Lugnar and others after the time of the hero party.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I think I'll just invoke Occam's Razor here: the simplest explanation for how Frieren learned the updated, demon-killing Zoltraak is from other human mages.
We've seen that Frieren likes learning magic, no matter how meager, and the current arc does show that every mage treats it as a basic spell.

The burden of proof that Frieren is the one who innovated upon it is much much higher.

I agree. Furthermore, Frieren admires and praises humanity a lot, so I see no problem with her having learned the updated Zoltraak and the defensive magic from one of them. She said getting new certifications is bothersome because organizations change so quickly, but that doesn't mean she doesn't stay updated on magical research.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The thing is, Lugner didn't seem to have faced any other human mages using Zoltraak before, so he has no point of reference. He knows what Fern and Frieren use is not exactly the same as the original Qual Zoltraak, but he does NOT know whether that's a specific version of Zoltraak that Frienren uses or the same version of zoltraak that all human mages use.

If anything, this is yet another evidence that suggests Lugner is just guessing that Frieren helped research Zoltraak. He does not know this for a fact. He's just making assumptions without basis. He has no knowledge of what humanity has been doing since the Demon King died, he has no clue what he's talking about.

And this is something typical of demons. They always make assumptions because they're too biased and too arrogant to see what's really going on around them, and always look down on humanity. That's also the reason Lugner never saw Fern as a threat, and look how that ended up for him.

Generally, all characters are unreliable to some degree but I think you're going a bit too far here.

Frieren said that research on Zoltraak started from when Qual was sealed, which should have been early in the 10 year journey to kill the Demon King. So about 90 years ago. Lugner says that demons "overcame" Zoltraak over 50 years ago. It's not clear exactly what he means but I've generally interpreted this as meaning that once humans started using "ordinary offensive magic" against demons, the demons in turn developed counter-measures and that Lugner is surprised precisely because this isn't the Zoltraak that he's used to facing from humans. He's been battling the local humans in the area with Aura for a long time so it's likely that he's seen Zoltraak from humans many times. He specifically says he was hit by the same magic (that Fern just cast) once in the past - ie when Frieren hit him with her custom version of Zoltraak in the past.

Edit: Frieren does specifically say it's been 80 years since she and Qual last met. That chapter is set 27 years after Himmel's death. ie 77 years after the Demon King died or 87 years after their adventure started. Unless it took 4 years from the start before confronting Qual, which seems unlikely, it should still be closer to 90 years than 80...

Overall, I think we can take his analysis of Fern/Frieren's version of Zoltraak as being designed to kill demons (and be different to normal Zoltraak) to be reasonable. Can we take his comments on Frieren's involvement with it's development to be valid? We don't know his source or reasoning for this but it's entirely possible that he's overestimating her involvement. We do know that Frieren is well known enough amongst demons to have a nickname, so it's possible she gets treated almost like a bad omen or something.

Going back to Frieren's description of the development of Zoltraak, she leaves out any mention of herself. It is possible that she had no involvement at all and learned Zoltraak and defensive magic from humans and that Lugner is entirely wrong to give her any credit. But it's also entirely possible that Frieren is giving herself too little credit - it would be in character for her to do this.

Frieren says that 70% of the mages in the region (where Qual was active) were killed by Zoltraak. That shows just how deadly it was. For anyone to counter it though, you'd need a surviving mage with enough skill and experience to be able to reverse engineer the spell. Frieren is the only example we know of. There could be other survivors but would they have the skill to reverse engineer it too? It would be a rare combination at least.

So I think it's quite plausible that Frieren contributed some of the critical initial research on Zoltraak. At a minimum this would be replicating the spell (or at least a prototype). It's possible that that was enough for humans to do the rest, including refining it (from a human perspective), developing magical barriers and enhanced magical equipment as well as popularising its use amongst humans. Or maybe Frieren provided both a prototype Zoltraak and barrier spell to humans.

There is a saying that "invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" and I can see Frieren putting down her involvement as "just" providing the 1% initial inspiration to it all, even if it was absolutely critical to getting started.

An explanation like this seems the best way to integrate all the stated viewpoints. But of course that doesn't make it correct.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Overall, I think we can take his analysis of Fern/Frieren's version of Zoltraak as being designed to kill demons (and be different to normal Zoltraak) to be reasonable. Can we take his comments on Frieren's involvement with it's development to be valid? We don't know his source or reasoning for this but it's entirely possible that he's overestimating her involvement. We do know that Frieren is well known enough amongst demons to have a nickname, so it's possible she gets treated almost like a bad omen or something.

Going back to Frieren's description of the development of Zoltraak, she leaves out any mention of herself. It is possible that she had no involvement at all and learned Zoltraak and defensive magic from humans and that Lugner is entirely wrong to give her any credit. But it's also entirely possible that Frieren is giving herself too little credit - it would be in character for her to do this.

Frieren says that 70% of the mages in the region (where Qual was active) were killed by Zoltraak. That shows just how deadly it was. For anyone to counter it though, you'd need a surviving mage with enough skill and experience to be able to reverse engineer the spell. Frieren is the only example we know of. There could be other survivors but would they have the skill to reverse engineer it too? It would be a rare combination at least.

So I think it's quite plausible that Frieren contributed some of the critical initial research on Zoltraak. At a minimum this would be replicating the spell (or at least a prototype). It's possible that that was enough for humans to do the rest, including refining it (from a human perspective), developing magical barriers and enhanced magical equipment as well as popularising its use amongst humans. Or maybe Frieren provided both a prototype Zoltraak and barrier spell to humans.

There is a saying that "invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" and I can see Frieren putting down her involvement as "just" providing the 1% initial inspiration to it all, even if it was absolutely critical to getting started.

An explanation like this seems the best way to integrate all the stated viewpoints. But of course that doesn't make it correct.

Is there any instance of other demons calling Frieren "Frieren the Slayer"? 'Cause given that Lugner couldn't even remember Frieren's face, I find it easier to believe he made up a nickname for Frieren because his arrogance made him believe that Frieren absolutely had to be the most exemplary of non-demon mages to lose to her. Demons and humans don't mingle, so I find it suspect that Lugner knew anything about humanity's development of magic, much less that Frieren greatly contributed to the development of Zoltraak even if she really did play a role.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

Is there any instance of other demons calling Frieren "Frieren the Slayer"?

Aura does just after using her spell.

'Cause given that Lugner couldn't even remember Frieren's face, I find it easier to believe he made up a nickname for Frieren because his arrogance made him believe that Frieren absolutely had to be the most exemplary of non-demon mages to lose to her. Demons and humans don't mingle, so I find it suspect that Lugner knew anything about humanity's development of magic, much less that Frieren greatly contributed to the development of Zoltraak even if she really did play a role.

There are some aspects I find odd for sure.

I can believe that demons have ways of getting information. That could be spying, mind-reading or torture or whatever. Of course, that doesn't make it accurate.

Lugner forgetting about Frieren for so long does seem a little too convenient.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Lugner says that demons "overcame" Zoltraak over 50 years ago. It's not clear exactly what he means but I've generally interpreted this as meaning that once humans started using "ordinary offensive magic" against demons, the demons in turn developed counter-measures and that Lugner is surprised precisely because this isn't the Zoltraak that he's used to facing from humans.

I agree with the conclusion, but I think what Lugner meant was that Qual's Zoltraak was also a work in progress at the time and wasn't perfected until about 50 years ago.

That could mean that it got stronger, or that other demons also learned Zoltraak, but similar to the human mages in this arc, they opted to specialize in other types of magic.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

My condolences to the girl fighting Fern. If she thinks it's possible to shake her up with some banter she's absolutely wasting her breath . Of course I'm sure no one there realizes that Fern is suppressing her magic constantly. So whatever level she thinks Fern is at based on the mana she's detecting, it won't exactly line up with reality. On some level I'm sure she does realize that and it's why things feel off to her.

Love Frieren's teachings throwing shade on the mages of this era. But she's probably not wrong. While some want to use flashy magic, the basics can often be the best way to go about things. Why bother manipulating earth when a simple focused shield and precise magical shots will do the job? Keeping it simple leans into Fern's strengths anyways since she can maximize her speed that way.

It's not about being flashy. They're looking for the scissors to the standard offensive and defensive magic's paper. They're just not quite there yet. Maybe it 10 years, Fern's style will be obsolete.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not about being flashy. They're looking for the scissors to the standard offensive and defensive magic's paper. They're just not quite there yet. Maybe it 10 years, Fern's style will be obsolete.

I heavily doubt that, given that for sure Frieren, of all people, would not teach her something which can get outdated so quickly.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I heavily doubt that, given that for sure Frieren, of all people, would not teach her something which can get outdated so quickly.

I hope she teaches her to keep up. Frieren knows that nothing lasts forever, least of all magic fighting styles. Learning to learn, that's the ticket.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not about being flashy. They're looking for the scissors to the standard offensive and defensive magic's paper. They're just not quite there yet. Maybe it 10 years, Fern's style will be obsolete.

I doubt that one. They don't seem close and frankly seems like they are going in completely the wrong direction.

Going so far down the road of niche that they are actually far less useful overall. Frieren's team proves the problem. Her team is almost entirely dependent on having substantial sources of water to manipulate. Fern's opponent would be useless in a fight on a boat. Creating flashy niches just makes them less useful overall. All anyone has to do is improve the basic defense a little and all that extra effort is completely cancelled out. No wonder Frieren told Fern that the basics would be enough to defeat mages of this era. They are all flash and no substance.

A type of offense and defense that can be used in any situation isn't going to go obsolete anytime soon. Certainly understandable that with peace and free time that mages would be trying to do different things. But rather than replacing Fern's style they are just going to make it even more effective.