2003-11-27, 13:13
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Link #182 |
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Eternal Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
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>Already answered. Japanese culture, but not only because of that. Takayuki was displayed as someone destitute, apathic and confused. Or do you consider it a healthy sign to carry a comatose person out of her hotel bed to an exhibition - at night?
How can you ignore that like this? -------Did you not read my post up until this point? Japanese are humans too. They behave like any others. People don't just jump from point A (normal) to point Z (suicidal) which was the point I was trying to make. The fact that after his mental state was normal what are the chances of him killing himself? Or even if he was from point (M where he was in the anime) to point Z, he had to go through N, O, P... I don't get your logic. >Oh, quite the opposite, I'm a very positive and optimistic person. But I'm a realist, so when I see my friends tilting I don't look the other way and pretend that things are going to be just fine  ... if you gamble with your own life, cool. If you gamble with the lives of your friends who are breaking apart and are in need of help and are more concerned about keeping your feeling of righteousness intact than helping them out, I do consider this cold and inhumane indeed.------What are you talking about? Did I say not help him? Was my method another way of helping him? What you're saying is the fact that by trying another way will possibly lead to his suicide (god knows how and I still don't see it), she shouldn't try it because of that possibility. And that's what you mean by gambling? In other words, because car accidents happen everyday therefore the only possible way to ensure your life safety is to not to drive all your life? Or even because relationships will possibly end up hurting yourself in some ways, you will not try to get into one because of the possibility of hurting yourself? Is that how you go about deciding what to do in your life? Not try other options because there's a possibility that it'll end up in a disaster? Yeah... that sounds pretty positive. And btw, how far would you go for your friend? You mean to tell me you'll hold their hands forever? My original argument based on the fact that Mitsuki saw Takayuki as her love (which was the case) and of course she should care for him. Did you see Shinji caring for Takayuki the way Mitsuki did? If Mitsuki only saw Takayuki as just friends she shouldn't feel guilty if she tried all she could as just a friend. Realistically, there are only so much friends do for each other. I'm just stating the fact but this is not really within my points. >How? Still unanswered. I hear a Takayuki-style "daijobou" here  ------Already answered. If only you read my post. >Very nice stab which can't be parried. Since we'll never see to which results your "approach" would have led, you have the advantage of the unrefutable "told you so". ------Mentar, the point is for her to be able to face herself and others. Wherever my approach will lead, Takayuki and Mitsuki will be there to deal with it together. At least with my approach she would feel no guilt and see the clear path of where she would be going and with Takayuki in agreement. >The immediate result of Mitsuki's actions was that Takayuki was able to return to a normal life with a sane head. We'll have to see now how the story ends. But I guess that if Mitsuki would have taken your "righteous" path, this problem would have never occurred, neh? ------Your approach: quick result with consequences. My approach: slowly but surely. Of course for the sake of argument. >Caring for the welfare of your friends is more important than theoretical musings over your conscience. Especially don't pull a Takayuki when you see one falling apart -------Yeah caring for the welfare in your mind is only by jumping onto him like Mitsuki did. There are other ways of caring in the world IMHO. Grifis |
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2003-11-27, 14:32
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Link #183 |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Okay, I'll try to cut this back to manageable size.
> Japanese are humans too. They behave like any others. No, they don't. Their reactions differ VERY much from what you can expect from westerners. The suicide point was made before by Japanese in this thread. > People don't just jump from point A (normal) to point > Z (suicidal) which was the point I was trying to make. Once you carry comatose people out of a hospital and break down weeping after being slapped back into consciousness is close enough to Z in my book. You're pretending the existance of a safety zone which didn't exist anymore. > Your approach: quick result with consequences. My > approach: slowly but surely. Of course for the sake of > argument. Unfortunately Mitsuki wasn't capable of going "slowly but surely" after a year of failure. See the famous scene. I can't help but believe that you've never been in a situation like this before (I have). Did you? You refuse to acknowledge the fact that she was at the end of her strength herself. She said that she couldn't go on like this anymore, in this schizophrenic setup with a person she loves who is going to hell (the second aspect you're in denial of). So what are the options? The only ones I can see are either to do what she did, come clean with her feelings and act on it, or LEAVE. Things which are unbearable must be dealt with one way or another. Which one is "right"? Obviously leaving according to YOUR ideals, and this looks more than risky in MY ideals. That's pretty much the difference between you and me as I see it: I accept the _basic_ situation the way I described above, acknowledging the limited options left to Mitsuki because of the situation she was in. You're the theoretician who looks at it septically without regard of the emotional resources left to the persons *shrug*. Don't bother trying to convince me that Mitsuki should have played it "slow" - she couldn't anymore (says the anime). No option. So should she have left him to sink or swim? |
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2003-11-27, 16:44
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Link #185 |
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Eternal Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
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[QUOTE=Mentar]
>No, they don't. Their reactions differ VERY much from what you can expect from westerners. The suicide point was made before by Japanese in this thread. ------Wow, this reasoning sounds extremely convincing to me. >Once you carry comatose people out of a hospital and break down weeping after being slapped back into consciousness is close enough to Z in my book. You're pretending the existance of a safety zone which didn't exist anymore. >Unfortunately Mitsuki wasn't capable of going "slowly but surely" after a year of failure. See the famous scene. I can't help but believe that you've never been in a situation like this before (I have). Did you? -------Oh so you mean you were in situation like this before? Don't mind to enlighten me. >You refuse to acknowledge the fact that she was at the end of her strength herself. She said that she couldn't go on like this anymore, in this schizophrenic setup with a person she loves who is going to hell (the second aspect you're in denial of). So what are the options? >The only ones I can see are either to do what she did, come clean with her feelings and act on it, or LEAVE. Things which are unbearable must be dealt with one way or another. Which one is "right"? Obviously leaving according to YOUR ideals, and this looks more than risky in MY ideals. >That's pretty much the difference between you and me as I see it: I accept the _basic_ situation the way I described above, acknowledging the limited options left to Mitsuki because of the situation she was in. You're the theoretician who looks at it septically without regard of the emotional resources left to the persons *shrug*. >Don't bother trying to convince me that Mitsuki should have played it "slow" - she couldn't anymore (says the anime). No option. So should she have left him to sink or swim? ------Did I not say using that one year hitting the right spot talking to him so he wouldn't be in that kind of shape 1 year later? Your assumption: she did all she could yet he still remained in the shape he was (although I didn't see any prove of this). My assumption: she didn't do all she could therefore he remained in the shape he was (and this was prove itself). Of course I can't stop you from narrowing down your options but it was no where near reasonable to accuse me of being cold and inhumane because I saw possibilities. That's all I have to say. Grifis |
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2003-11-27, 18:37
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Link #186 |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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>> I can't help but believe that you've never been in a
>> situation like this before (I have). Did you? > Oh so you mean you were in situation like this before? > Don't mind to enlighten me. Why not? I had my Mitsuki-style experience with a very good friend of mine who was living in a horribly unhappy marriage with a violent tyrant of a husband. She was living overseas and we've met only on the net and later a few times in RL. Her own family held certain religious beliefs which made them barely sympathetic to her life, since the will of the head of the family was absolute. It wasn't "right" for her to complain - and from her youth she was conditioned for that, so she not only suffered of her husband's abuse, but also with her feelings of guilt. She had made her bet, so sleep in it, it's YOUR job to make it comfortable. Basically no RL friends due to suppression. Noone to turn to, and neither emotional nor monetary help to escape her cage, since it wasn't "right". It took 18 emotionally strainful months and a huge bill to get her out of this. She's fine today. I'll just say that I can relate to what Mitsuki's going through to a huge degree. And what sickened me most during this time was the Pontius Pilatus-style righteous "family & friends" who would have preferred to let her ROT in this cage for the sake of what's "right" or "proper". I'm a practicing catholic and arguably helped destroy a marriage. And I'm glad I did. So if you're gettin more flak than you think you deserve, blame it on my experiences. But "It's just not right, there must have been a better way than this" is something I react allergic to. Especially when there's no CONCRETE suggestion what, and only fancy and exceptionally useless ivory tower musings like "if she had did this in the first place, it would not have turned out like that". > Your assumption: she did all she could yet he still remained > in the shape he was (although I didn't see any prove of this). Well, the anime went to great length describing how she helped him to stay afloat down to house chores. In no way does it indicate anything else but genuine and altruistic care in this one year. > My assumption: she didn't do all she could therefore he > remained in the shape he was (and this was prove itself). So it's her fault after all I don't know if this is more stupid or malicious. The anime doesn't deliver any hints of this. If you consider it more likely that her care _caused_ the state he's in after a year rather than helped him stay afloat, but wasn't sufficient, let's use the good old "let's agree to disagree" line. And let the readers decide. I think I'm done with this. |
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2003-11-27, 19:50
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Link #187 |
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Ecchi Nazi
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Long Island NY
Age: 41
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You go Mentar. The Mitsuki haters will try to find anything to hate her or to put the blame on her, but they can't come up with anything concrete.
Saying Mitsuki should have waited until he gets better is just ridiculous. I guess one year is not enough huh? Maybe another 3-4 years would have made things better. You guys have no proof that she didn't spend all that year trying to change him back to the way he was, you are all assuming things. Theres facts that she did spend a year taking care of him, show me facts that she didn't spend a year slowly trying to bring back the old Takayuki. Bah, i'm done with this too. Today is thanksgiving, i'm full, and theres no more to discuss here since Mentar has pretty much whooped ass in this discussion, lol. Crimson out.... |
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2003-11-27, 20:24
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Link #188 |
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*Kyuuketsuki Otaku*
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere in Hawaii
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hm... such long posts there, so much to read. I got to admit Mentar did a good job in defending Mitsuki. Its amazing how a Anime drama show can spark such deep debates. I'm not a Mitsuki supporter but I don't hate her, just some of her actions. I think Takayuki is even worse, since seeing ep8 that cheating idiot.
I can't wait for this series to get licensed and be on DVD in the U.S, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. This is one anime show I can show to my friends and family who still thinks anime is for kids. Anyways have a Happy Thanksgiving guys!
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Last edited by Keitarou20; 2003-11-27 at 21:43. |
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2003-11-27, 20:30
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Link #189 |
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Eternal Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
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Mentar, appreciate the touching story. Although I can't see the connection or will I ever see your logic, I enjoyed the discussion. Must admit it was fun while it lasted.
>So if you're gettin more flak than you think you deserve, blame it on my experiences. But "It's just not right, there must have been a better way than this" is something I react allergic to. Especially when there's no CONCRETE suggestion what, and only fancy and exceptionally useless ivory tower musings like "if she had did this in the first place, it would not have turned out like that". ---What I believe is if I decided to work toward a goal, I put my all and must achieve that goal and of course if I did that in the first place, it would not turn out like this. I'm done with this too. Gained a few posts. Grifis |
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2003-11-28, 06:21
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Link #191 |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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> I can't wait for this series to get licensed and be on DVD in
> the U.S, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. This is one anime show I > can show to my friends and family who still thinks anime is > for kids. This is the first anime I'd import from Japan if it was licensed there. I guess I'll have to ask Lucien for his .ssa scripts later on to create a subbed version Seeing you mention a R1 release, something occurred to me: What a fantastic job the Seiyuus have been doing yet. The only "good" English dubs I've seen so far all tend to have been in comedy or action animes, but romances or especially drama conversions have been horrible. Can anyone imagine having a really good English dub conveying emotion remotely as believably as the Japanese seiyuus? I want those DVDs
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2003-11-28, 07:37
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Link #192 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003
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Not to sound like an ass, but this woman in the bad marriage sounds like she may be Indian or from another one of those Asian societies in which well-to-do families (ie, the ones who end up oversees in order to raise their quality of life) pamper and keep their children cloistered within the family unit (especially girls) until marraige. Such women, in my experience, are so reliant on their parents that they don't believe that they can survive outside of its support struture. This also makes them selfish as they lack a lot of early inter-human skills developed by less-controlled Western children.
And oh yes. Humans are humans are humans. Even people without a native term for "human being" nontheless feel the same things and hold the same things dear. All human beings love their health and each other. |
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2003-11-28, 08:19
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Link #193 |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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She's pure-bred American just like her former husband, but the comparison you made was pretty accurate, especially the sheltering till marriage. The problem stemmed from having a strict "obey the patriarch" upbringing of a witness of jehova, but her husband didn't have the restraints which come with it (he was no witness).
Actually, she's one of the most NON-selfish persons I've encountered. For a few years she basically sacrificed everything for kids, marriage and husband. You might be surprised how much guilt some people can feel for just wanting to go to the movies. Or how selfish it is to want a bit of trivial happiness for yourself, too. Anyway, we're digressing. Things are good now. |
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2003-11-28, 11:31
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Link #194 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
I would say the people you call Mitsuki haters are really moderate Mitsuki supporters. You guys are more like the rabid taliban-style (please dont take offense ) Mitsuki belivers. Of course we take offense towards the stuff you say because its not what we belive is right for "our" Mitsuki. The real Mitsuki haters don't even bother.Well, that was quite OT.... |
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2003-11-28, 14:51
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Link #195 | |
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Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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2003-11-28, 23:58
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Link #198 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
I think Lucier et al. will release DVD version of their KgNE sub when they get the DVDs? By the way, if you want to order it from Amazon.co.jp, check AnimeonDVD forum for the 500 off 2000 coupon. At least it helps you to take some of the shipping cost off.
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