Knights of sidonia

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Well, the regenerative abilities I can get, you see those a dime a dozen in sci-fi, and it's not really that unusual to think about scientifically.

However, the whole 3rd sex is another thing entirely. Like if a person doesn't have either genitalia how do they expel waste? They can become male or female at will when they chose a mate, well how do they set up their bodies to have the necessary systems and organs to be male or female? And what about their genes and chromosomes? If they are neither XX nor XY, is there some new chromosome now? XZ?
And who decides the gender of the child now? What combination makes a he/she? And when that person somehow "wills" their body to become male or female, how does all the genes in all the cells change? And what about hormones and cycles?

Yeah, if you really start thinking of this stuff, it begins to fall apart. But in the world of sci-fi it's fun to think about.

Ah, Irene, our regular scientist. It’s nice to see you raise questions that many of us probably missed. It adds certain flavor in this discusion. (In case you’re wondering, no, this is not sarcasm )

Btw, I’ve watched the episode, and instead of me parroting some of the comments already posted, I’m just gonna say that this ep is a notable improvement of the previous one. It’s heading to a good direction in terms of sci-fi. Also, the cel-shaded characters did improve if only a little, but all is good.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Space and land... Clearly, we need an SnK series about a last city of humans besieged by sea monsters.

They kinda did it with Gargantia but certainly far from what you wanted. And in Arpeggio, instead of a “last city”, the Fog held the entire land in the world hostage.

Originally Posted by dark44

well the manga is harem in baka updates

I agree with Solace and Sheba: don’t trust tags. Many slapped a “harem” tag to Arpeggio - Ars Nova despite there’s only one girl who’s head-over-heels toward the MC and one is just being loyal in a family/friend kinda way.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Ah, Irene, our regular scientist. It’s nice to see you raise questions that many of us probably missed. It adds certain flavor in this discusion. (In case you’re wondering, no, this is not sarcasm )

Btw, I’ve watched the episode, and instead of me parroting some of the comments already posted, I’m just gonna say that this ep is a notable improvement of the previous one. It’s heading to a good direction in terms of sci-fi. Also, the cel-shaded characters did improve if only a little, but all is good.

*Takes Bow* Thank you, curiosity and the "what if?" are what make science fun. I think that might be why so many of us scientists and doctors are sci-fi nerds.

I love Star Trek and Star Wars and Stargate...etc. etc. It's fun to hear technobabble and other crazy psuedo science if the story's great. (If the story is horrible, then we science/logic people tend to pick it apart. )

However, Knights of Sidonia is on that edge. I'm not a physicist or engineer (and I know one who was having such fun picking apart AoT 3D Maneuver gear ), so technobabble or crazy future tech doesn't bother me. Biological stuff if more up my alley, so I take notice of it easier. I don't mind the photosynthesis and 3rd gender stuff, as long as the story is good and they leave it at a vague explanation (sweeping it under the genetic engineering rug). However if they try to take science and explain how it works, then I have no choice but to analyze it myself. And won't that be fun?

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Well, the regenerative abilities I can get, you see those a dime a dozen in sci-fi, and it's not really that unusual to think about scientifically.

However, the whole 3rd sex is another thing entirely. Like if a person doesn't have either genitalia how do they expel waste? They can become male or female at will when they chose a mate, well how do they set up their bodies to have the necessary systems and organs to be male or female? And what about their genes and chromosomes? If they are neither XX nor XY, is there some new chromosome now? XZ?
And who decides the gender of the child now? What combination makes a he/she? And when that person somehow "wills" their body to become male or female, how does all the genes in all the cells change? And what about hormones and cycles?

Yeah, if you really start thinking of this stuff, it begins to fall apart. But in the world of sci-fi it's fun to think about.

The 3rd sex does not seem that far-fetched; in truth, our primary reproduction organ is actually the inverse of the other sex's. All there needs to be to get rid of waste is a opening; fan art has been really creative as well, most art I've seen has Izana with this penile-like extension that can just as easily be withdrawn into a vagina as further extended out to become a proper penis; they also probably have a complete set of XY chromosomes, as well as a relatively flexible organ that produces them.

Intersex is unusual, but there are quite a few viable examples among humans, and in the animal kingdom at this very moment. All they would need to do is build on those examples into something more reproductively viable.

The gender of the child would probably be intersex as well.

[Anime Online]

Originally Posted by RollingPenguin

Well,it's clear that one girl is really into him as but the other two are merely nice or interested in him for completely different reasons.

Yeap. It seems impossible for some viewers to accept that a guy and a girl can be friends or acquaintances. Even if they are siblings, they are not immune to being shipped (though at times the anime got that ball rolling).

Izana, most probably, has an interest in him. She looks out for him and even withstood him throwing up on her. C'mon, how many girls can you find sitting still with your head on her lap after you just threw up all over her leg? Hoshijiro is simply the helpful honor student. Yuhata is interested in his close encounter with the Gauna. Perhaps a case of hero worship.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

However, the whole 3rd sex is another thing entirely. Like if a person doesn't have either genitalia how do they expel waste? They can become male or female at will when they chose a mate, well how do they set up their bodies to have the necessary systems and organs to be male or female? And what about their genes and chromosomes? If they are neither XX nor XY, is there some new chromosome now? XZ?

I don't know why it's hard to believe such thing as sex change in a sci-fi setting, when in nature it happens all the time with many species. For the genitalia a lot of animals already do that. They switch from male to female or female to male complete with the package when they need to.

As for humans remember that as a fetus we start out as female and later in pregnancy we develop our wiener. Anatomically the male genitalia is just a rearrangement of the female parts. As for the reproductive organs: the testicles, uterus and ovaries they could develop either set or already be born with both and depending on the sex switched to, one fully develops while the other shrinks or atrophies. Many of this "sex change" or "undefined sex characteristics" in humans are already consequence of genetic diseases or defects.

As for the genes & chromosomes. In nature animals already got very intelligent ways to pass on their genes in this situations. From passing one full set or splitting and duplicating. 3rd sex would be logically XY to have both chromosomes instead of the female XX.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by LystAP

The 3rd sex does not seem that far-fetched; in truth, our primary reproduction organ is actually the inverse of the other sex's. All there needs to be to get rid of waste is a opening; fan art has been really creative as well, most art I've seen has Izana with this penile-like extension that can just as easily be withdrawn into a vagina as further extended out to become a proper penis; they also probably have a complete set of XY chromosomes, as well as a relatively flexible organ that produces them.

Intersex is unusual, but there are quite a few viable examples among humans, and in the animal kingdom at this very moment. All they would need to do is build on those examples into something more reproductively viable.

The gender of the child would probably be intersex as well.

Originally Posted by Kamui04

I don't know why it's hard to believe such thing as sex change in a sci-fi setting, when in nature it happens all the time with many species. For the genitalia a lot of animals already do that. They switch from male to female or female to male complete with the package when they need to.

As for humans remember that as a fetus we start out as female and later in pregnancy we develop our wiener. Anatomically the male genitalia is just a rearrangement of the female parts. As for the reproductive organs: the testicles, uterus and ovaries they could develop either set or already be born with both and depending on the sex switched to, one fully develops while the other shrinks or atrophies. Many of this "sex change" or "undefined sex characteristics" in humans are already consequence of genetic diseases or defects.

As for the genes & chromosomes. In nature animals already got very intelligent ways to pass on their genes in this situations. From passing one full set or splitting and duplicating. 3rd sex would be logically XY to have both chromosomes instead of the female XX.

I know it happens in animals, such as some frogs. However you have to realize that a human being is a much more complex being.

It not just a matter of the sex organs being the opposite of each other, its the fact that organs are different. They do develop in the womb, but can you imagine them trying to change when that fetus is now an adult? You now would have to essentially grow a whole new set of organs. Or if you want to say they have both, then you would have to some how get rid of a whole set of organs.

Also, there is the problem of the hormones that maintains those organs, as well as the rest of the body of a person of a particular sex. Such as the fact that certain hormones in a woman would take continue to prepare for a baby and know to expend all other features in order to sustain that baby if a problem arose. A male wouldn't have those.

To handle such an hormonal shift as well as such a physical change would take months if not years, not unlike a sex change operation, except even more drastic, because if would take an entire genetic change as well.

A single X and a single Y together, is always going to be male. You can't use that as what a 3rd gender would have. However, an idea would be for them to have a mosaic and have some cells be XX and others XY as some true hermaphrodites have. However, usually one of those types or more dominant than the other, and you can't really pass it on to your offspring. And by their own admission a 3rd gender would chose one gender or the other when they mate, so that would mean that any child would again form from a male and female. So, how does that make an intersex child unless they somehow also have that rare mutation of hermaphroditism?

And for the body to be able to do all of that on its own with only the power of "will", is astounding and nigh-unbelievable. But as I said, because this is sci-fi, and they don't go too much into it, I'm okay with it.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I know it happens in animals, such as some frogs. However you have to realize that a human being is a much more complex being.

It not just a matter of the sex organs being the opposite of each other, its the fact that organs are different. They do develop in the womb, but can you imagine them trying to change when that fetus is now an adult? You now would have to essentially grow a whole new set of organs. Or if you want to say they have both, then you would have to some how get rid of a whole set of organs.

Also, there is the problem of the hormones that maintains those organs, as well as the rest of the body of a person of a particular sex. Such as the fact that certain hormones in a woman would take continue to prepare for a baby and know to expend all other features in order to sustain that baby if a problem arose. A male wouldn't have those.

To handle such an hormonal shift as well as such a physical change would take months if not years, not unlike a sex change operation, except even more drastic, because if would take an entire genetic change as well.

A single X and a single Y together, is always going to be male. You can't use that as what a 3rd gender would have. However, an idea would be for them to have a mosaic and have some cells be XX and others XY as some true hermaphrodites have. However, usually one of those types or more dominant than the other, and you can't really pass it on to your offspring. And by their own admission a 3rd gender would chose one gender or the other when they mate, so that would mean that any child would again form from a male and female. So, how does that make an intersex child unless they somehow also have that rare mutation of hermaphroditism?

And for the body to be able to do all of that on its own with only the power of "will", is astounding and nigh-unbelievable. But as I said, because this is sci-fi, and they don't go too much into it, I'm okay with it.

No one is particularly sure about how and when animals change genders, if they are capable. It could be a response to hormones, or other new addition that was developed in the meanwhile.

Unlike current society, Sidonia's had no moral or ethnic self-imposed limits on human experimentation, going into immortality and Chimera research for the sake of humanity's survival. Who knows what they could have discovered about the human condition once you throw away the constraints of what "shouldn't" be done, with a mix of desperation involved as well.

After experiencing some things, I argue that nothing is particularly unbelievable; you just have to throw away a fair amount of what makes us who we are right now to be able to conceive of, and be able to accomplish those formerly inconceivable acts. A lot of sci-fi movies are like that; given our existing technology, we have the means to accomplish a fair amount of them, but many moral, cultural, and societal constraints exist to either make them not that important for us at the moment, like space colonization, or brings up certain very contentious implications, especially anything regarding alteration and control of the human body.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by LystAP

No one is particularly sure about how and when animals change genders, if they are capable. It could be a response to hormones, or other new addition that was developed in the meanwhile.

Unlike current society, Sidonia's had no moral or ethnic self-imposed limits on human experimentation, going into immortality and Chimera research for the sake of humanity's survival. Who knows what they could have discovered about the human condition once you throw away the constraints of what "shouldn't" be done, with a mix of desperation involved as well.

After experiencing some things, I argue that nothing is particularly unbelievable; you just have to throw away a fair amount of what makes us who we are right now to be able to conceive of, and be able to accomplish those formerly inconceivable acts. A lot of sci-fi movies are like that; given our existing technology, we have the means to accomplish a fair amount of them, but many moral, cultural, and societal constraints exist to either make them not that important for us at the moment, like space colonization, or brings up certain very contentious implications, especially anything regarding alteration and control of the human body.

Honestly, I didn't take any sort of restraints or human ethics concerns when I was thinking about this, and I still think it's rather unlikely to be something that can be done. It was more about what the human body is capable of and what is possible considering what the body would need to continue to work correctly and still maintain homeostasis.

If you really wanted to put those sort of restraints on it, then a lot more things become unbelievable. However, again, I don't take those into concern when I'm supposing in this case. It's sci-fi, so I'm not to picky in that regard as long as its done tastefully.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Honestly, I didn't take any sort of restraints or human ethics concerns when I was thinking about this, and I still think it's rather unlikely to be something that can be done. It was more about what the human body is capable of and what is possible considering what the body would need to continue to work correctly and still maintain homeostasis.

If you really wanted to put those sort of restraints on it, then a lot more things become unbelievable. However, again, I don't take those into concern when I'm supposing in this case. It's sci-fi, so I'm not to picky in that regard as long as its done tastefully.

Considering what the human body is capable of is fine, but then consider what the human can be capable of with sufficient genetic alterations. Obviously, the humans in Sidonia are not akin to humanity as it exists in its current state in our world, they only look like modern humans for the most part, but could arguable have "evolved" to a whole new species.

Perhaps, we are going a little overboard with our analysis; I am slightly convinced with your analysis of the current human body and the extent of possible alterations that may be required, given current knowledge, but I disagree in general with stating that something is unbelievable (I get obsessed with any wording that implies an absolute, particularly in science; improbable would be a better word to use, imo. ). I believe everything is possible in time, we know so little of the world, of our own bodies, of the deep oceans or the depths of space. Part of why I was attracted to Nihei's work was because he went for the very boundaries of what we could consider human, and beyond that, in both form and mind.

On another note, the author of Shingeki no Kyojin, Hajime Isayama, personally recommended Sidonia on his blog this week. All the more reason for people to watch, and for a Season 2 with best girl.

[Tenzen12]

>Irenasheda

You have good points, but all these are more of just technical problems scientists in universe had to solve and they appearently did . I am even sure our current science would be able come with possibilities how to do that even if only on theoretical level.

Whole that photosintesis is far more plasauble than regeneration which would be mean far more troubles. And for third genre, if frog can, it just mean bunch of work to apply it on more complex organism as human nothing more.

[cupumanager]

Originally Posted by LystAP

https://twitter.com/tsutomu_nihei/st...80693372993536
Nihei tweeted: "My daughter said "Daddy, you should have drawn an interesting manga like Attack on titans.""

Such author suffering. Sidonia did come first, and the author of SnK is an admitted fan of Nihei's work; however, that is also apparently irrelevant to his own daughter.

Originally Posted by LystAP

On another note, the author of Shingeki no Kyojin, Hajime Isayama, personally recommended Sidonia on his blog this week. All the more reason for people to watch, and for a Season 2 with best girl.

Well, Nihei himself also share his own author suffering in an Omake...When he went to Vienna, among all of more well-known cosplays he spotted one from his own work, BLAME...As he started to approach her, suddenly The Coordinator barged in shouting: "Cool! Gantz!"

In front of the author.

Nihei screamed in his mind, ITS SANAKAN...but cannot spit it out...

[Tenzen12]

Being Nihei is suffering.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

Yeap. It seems impossible for some viewers to accept that a guy and a girl can be friends or acquaintances. Even if they are siblings, they are not immune to being shipped (though at times the anime got that ball rolling).

There's a good reason we think that way. It's because male/female friendship are incredibly rare in anime. The girls close to the MC will always end up developing a romantic interest in him, it's inevitable. There's already Izana, and it's only a matter of time before Shizuka falls in love with him as well. Not sure about the third girl yet.

What really gave me harem vibes was the scene where Nagate caught the girls in their underwear. That was straight out of a harem manga. I didn't expect that kind of scenes in this.

[Renegade334]

@Kanon: the series will feature a few more of these fanservice/slapstick scenes, though most of the time they're actually used to bring bodily harm to Tanikaze and remind the audience of how unnaturally quickly he heals. So, don't worry, it's not going to turn into a To-Love-Ru-like series.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

@Kanon: the series will feature a few more of these fanservice/slapstick scenes, though most of the time they're actually used to bring bodily harm to Tanikaze and remind the audience of how unnaturally quickly he heals. So, don't worry, it's not going to turn into a To-Love-Ru-like series.

I never had such worries. This is clearly a science fiction series first and foremost, I know it's not going to veer into harem territory. I'm just saying this does have harem undertones and that it's not just us seeing things that aren't there.

On a semi-related topic, I wonder how important romance will be in this series. Nagate x Izana would be very interesting.

[kira80]

Best anime this season IMHO.

I just have a hard time telling apart all the characters and remembering their names.

[User68604]

Are there any fanpics of Izana?

hehe

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by kira80

Best anime this season IMHO. I just have a hard time telling apart all the characters and remembering their names.

Maybe my characters/seiyuus page will help. Pics of twelve main characters.

Originally Posted by recover

Are there any fanpics of Izana...?

Here's her name in Japanese "科戸瀬 イザナ" You'll find some art if you search for that on Google Images and on pixiv.

[dmaxzero]

About the third sex thingy.
We are all women at one point in the womb before the primary sexual characteristics are established. Maybe the point is simply making that state undefined and subdued to be controlled.
Most likely the third genre have undefined secondary sexual characteristics but by standard a primary sexual female one, after all the penis is nothing more than a shape shifted clitoris. =/

It´s a fictional story, those elements exist only for the sake of the story, better seeing it in that way.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kira80

Best anime this season IMHO.

In terms of anime, isn’t it a little early for such a claim? We’re still two episodes in. I mean, SAO, Coppelion, Gundam SEED Destiny and countless other titles started out strong in its first two episodes, and look how those turned out.