US Elections 2016 Part I: The Debates & Primaries/Caucus

[SeijiSensei]

And you grant credibility to random people on YouTube because ...?

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

And you grant credibility to random people on YouTube because ...?

Have you heard them? Actually for internet wanderer, they are not random.

He make interesting point, since people tends to be reactionary and in any kind of terrorist attack people priority will be security and the only candidate selling it is Trump.

[SeijiSensei]

Some people tend to be reactionary, but many others do not. You simply cannot make sweeping statements like that about "people."

Second, Trump is hardly the only candidate selling "security." It pervades the rhetoric of all the Republican candidates for President. Most of the time they seem to be racing to stay to the right of each other on this issue.

Third, we already had a "terrorist attack" this year in San Bernadino. Trump got a small boost in polls of Republicans as a result, but I don't see much in the way of across-the-board effects.

Then there's also the matter of whether Trump wins the nomination. I happen to think that he will, but recently it appears even mainstream establishment Republicans are starting to get behind Ted Cruz. Certainly the Republican Party leadership does not want to see Trump become the nominee.

[Reckoner]

Right now Trump isn't beating Ted Cruz in Iowa. Once the establishment forgets about Rubio, Bush, and Kaisch they'll see Cruz as their only opportunity to stop Trump. At that point Trump loses. Or if Rubio's campaign finally takes off like many thought it would, then we'll see the end of both of them.

Trump has fed off fear and frustration in this country, but that doesn't make a majority of the Republican base. For all his "winning" in the polls (which have got more and more inaccurate in recent years), he doesn't actually have a majority of the party on his side. With the establishment firmly against him, it's just a really difficult scenario to overcome.

Trump isn't the only one "tough" on national security. We have Ted Cruz saying he's going to carpet bomb Isis like no tomorrow. We have Fiorina and Christie all but saying they want to start WWIII with Russia. All that Trump is saying differently is disgusting stuff like banning a race of people from this country and closing down mosques.

I firmly believe the rise of Trump is the left's fault though. When you cloud out reasonable discussions, extremists take over. ISIS is an organization that operates off the scriptures of Islam (No it's not a matter of interpretation, these are direct quotes of scripture). Although there are of course other socioeconomic factors involved, one cannot run away from the fact that this is radical Islamic terrorism. It's high time the left get used to criticizing the doctrine of Islam like it has all this time for Christianity. If we cannot support our Western values like freedom of speech, equality of the sexes, etc. in the face of these ideas we are not just endangering our society, but also the moderate voices who can shape that religion into one of peace and not war. Perpetrating everyone as Islamicphobic has silenced discussion and Trump has gladly filled the void with his hatred. Bad ideas lead to bad behaviors. We see this with Christianity (AIDS epidemic in Africa because condoms are banned, or abortion clinic terrorism) and we see this with Islam whether it's throwing gays off the rooftops or beheading of "infidels."

[jcdietz03]

I'm surprised at how well Sanders is doing. He seems to have more than 40 points in most polls, which is "serious contender" territory.

I did not expect this because I see Sanders as more populist/anti-corporatist. Candidates like this always lose. You need the corporate money in order to spam your name enough times so that people will know to vote for you.

If American voters would elect Trump, then Trump isn't the problem at all. And that even if Trump never existed the same voters would have elected someone just as bad.

Nope, it's due to the actions of those in power. If they made it easier for 3rd party candidates to win, then more people would vote for them. Yet these changes are never made. Things are slowly moving in the correct direction, like the use of independent commissions for districting (in very few states).

It's also the Supreme Court Citizens United decision which means unlimited private money can be spent on electioneering. That paved the way for this. Blaming "Americans" is short-sighted. If you must place the blame, blame it on our leaders.

Never blame on stupidity that which can adequately be explained by malice.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I firmly believe the rise of Trump is the left's fault though.

Yeah, has nothing to do with the extreme actions and rhetoric of the Tea Party zealots. That hasn't been steadily rising over the past few years or anything, causing many extreme reactions such as the Bundy Militia. No, it's definitely someone else's fault and not the ones espousing that crap.

All Trump did was take their rhetoric and speed it up.

[Reckoner]

When you leave a void in a discussion, you empower the extremists. I didn't say that was only Trump. Trump feeds off it and takes advantage of it. He's the end result of the left not standing for liberal values.

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

When you leave a void in a discussion, you empower the extremists. I didn't say that was only Trump. Trump feeds off it and takes advantage of it. He's the end result of the left not standing for liberal values.

Can you be a liberal and conservative at the same time? I mean in a political compass the opposite of liberalism is authoritarianism not conservativeism, the opposite of conservativeism is progressiveism. A progressive can be very authoritarian, just like the conservative.

[Reckoner]

I know you get this whole thing from the likes of Sargon of Akkad and others. I prefer to just call this phenomenon on the liberal/left side the regressive left though.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

So... Rubio just made the claim that ISIS is having their followers infiltrate the US as engineers and doctors...

I have litterally NEVER heard that before. Did he just made it all up? I know Republicans lie all the damn time, but did he just fabricate brand new terror tactics that never existed? And Republicans are dumb enough to fall for it?

When is the last time you hear a Muslim Doctor or Engineer in the US committing a terrorist act? Are American politicians going to lie on public television and get away with it?

[Ithekro]

I'm starting to hear people talk about a slow infiltrations of Western Civilization by the Muslim Brotherhood since the early 1980s and 1990s. To take down Western Civilization via corruption and replacement, or something like that. Most times I hear about it it is by someone attempting to link President Obama and his administration to acts of outright treason against the United States and its citizens. At a start for grounds for impeachment (and because they want to get him on high treason, they want an execution).

The links are all claimed to be smoking guns at links between the administration and the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic groups of various types. Almost all labeled terrorist groups by those spreading the rumors and videos. Most recently about CIAR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) retold via a group called I think The United West.

On the other hand we have smarter people in this world as well. I'd include King Abdullah II of Jordan in that category of smarter people.

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I'm starting to hear people talk about a slow infiltrations of Western Civilization by the Muslim Brotherhood since the early 1980s and 1990s. To take down Western Civilization via corruption and replacement, or something like that. Most times I hear about it it is by someone attempting to link President Obama and his administration to acts of outright treason against the United States and its citizens. At a start for grounds for impeachment (and because they want to get him on high treason, they want an execution).

The links are all claimed to be smoking guns at links between the administration and the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic groups of various types. Almost all labeled terrorist groups by those spreading the rumors and videos. Most recently about CIAR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) retold via a group called I think The United West.

On the other hand we have smarter people in this world as well. I'd include King Abdullah II of Jordan in that category of smarter people.

I think you should watch video about KGB defector talking about what their did 90% of the time. Its not infiltration but brainwashing. Its not done by Islamic elements, its done by leftist portion of society. Bernie supporter is a product of such brainwashing. I don't know about Bernie himself since last year he was a pro Israel and this year he turned 180 into an anti Israel.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by yulinard

I think you should watch video about KGB defector talking about what their did 90% of the time. Its not infiltration but brainwashing. Its not done by Islamic elements, its done by leftist portion of society. Bernie supporter is a product of such brainwashing. I don't know about Bernie himself since last year he was a pro Israel and this year he turned 180 into an anti Israel.

I just want to remind you that most non-Americans who aren't living in a theocracy are to the left of Bernie Sanders. So if that's what you truly believe then we Leftists have already conquered the world.

[Anh_Minh]

You know someone is a conservative when Islamophobia is too modern for them. Red scare or nothing!

[Reckoner]

What does it say when the "highlight" of your entire debate is Trump and Cruz battling it over Cruz's eligibility to be President with the birther 2.0 theory?

Regardless of whether or not Trump wins this primary, it is clear he has directed and controlled the entire dialogue of the republican primary election. I'm not sure if it's completely intentional, but he is a media mastermind.

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I just want to remind you that most non-Americans who aren't living in a theocracy are to the left of Bernie Sanders. So if that's what you truly believe then we Leftists have already conquered the world.

Not really. Welfare state are pretty much concentrated in the west. I mean a guy who earn 500.000 a year only bring back 50.000 because he was taxed 90% to pay medical bill other guy who earn 50.000 year and bring back exactly 50.000.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by yulinard

Not really. Welfare state are pretty much concentrated in the west. I mean a guy who earn 500.000 a year only bring back 50.000 because he was taxed 90% to pay medical bill other guy who earn 50.000 year and bring back exactly 50.000.

It seems you have no idea what I mean because you have no idea what it is like outside America. I guess my point stands and you can keep fighting the "left menace" all you want. Because you already lost.

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It seems you have no idea what I mean because you have no idea what it is like outside America. I guess my point stands and you can keep fighting the "left menace" all you want. Because you already lost.

Actually only one of my family is inside America and im currently "outside" America. I'm not living in a theocracy and certainly never see any leftist party since they already extinct long before I born.

I don't even know where "stand" is since I said welfare state are concentrated in the west, not elsewhere. Welfare state can only exist with "abundance", real or fake and not everyone can have that.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by yulinard

Not really. Welfare state are pretty much concentrated in the west. I mean a guy who earn 500.000 a year only bring back 50.000 because he was taxed 90% to pay medical bill other guy who earn 50.000 year and bring back exactly 50.000.

Ah the 90% tax rate propaganda.

I guess you don't even you know the definition of "marginal tax"? Because if you do, you will never make arguments like these


Frankly I think this is the biggest problem that you (and those on the right) have in particular. They judged those on the left based on label rather by actual knowledge on policy and implementation. The truth is, even if the 'great socialist comrade' Bernie Sanders can become POTUS, and can 'brainwash' American public and 'impose' the country into his socialist vision by the end of his 2nd term. Big If. US as a nation then would still be way on right when compare to 'hardcore communist regimes' like Canada, Australia or Germany or much of Europe.

[SeijiSensei]

Two political scientists have developed robust methods for extracting "dimensions" of political ideology from the roll-call voting records of Senators and Members of Congress. On the primary left/right dimension, there are four or five other Senators to the left of Sanders. Anchoring the left end of the spectrum is Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) at -0.72. She is nowhere near as extreme as the right-wing of the Republican Party though. Mike Lee (R-UT) and Rand Paul (R-KY) have scores over 0.9, with Ted Cruz (R-TX) and Jeff Flake (R-AZ) close behind.

Sanders' score is -0.51.