2014-06-11, 08:13 | Link #2001 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Still, I guess it's excusable that she's only a pre-teen.
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2014-06-11, 09:44 | Link #2003 | |
Missionary of Madoka
Join Date: Jun 2014
Age: 33
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She thinks Godoka is unhappy and belives that Madoka's statement proves her right. |
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2014-06-11, 11:18 | Link #2004 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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You're probably right. I did say I don't have the movie with me right now so I'm working on what I remember. I'm pretty sure about the other line though, because it's not the first time I've pointed out it was mistranslated.
To be fair, Madoka might be unhappy as a goddess. She seems to regard what she's doing as "duty," which isn't something you usually associate with happiness. Unless your "duty" happens to be your "desire" as well, of course. But this doesn't seem the case here as the movie presents "duty" and "desire" as a duality. In fact, "duty vs desire" seems to be one of the main themes. Madoka chose duty over her true desires, while Homura, on the other hand, chose the latter. That's the impression I got at the very least.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2014-06-11 at 11:29. |
2014-06-11, 13:47 | Link #2005 | |
The True Culprit
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I can vouch that she indeed says 'yatto'.
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2014-06-11, 17:23 | Link #2006 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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The thing is that as long as Madoka has a purpose, as long as she feels that she's making a difference, she's happy.
Homura -cannot- be happy unless Madoka is safe, normal, static and therefore purposeless. Their goals are inherently incompatible. |
2014-06-11, 20:16 | Link #2008 |
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In re-watching the movie yesterday, I did get the impression that Homura was pretty startled by the Flower Fields conversation.
There's a definite sense of "Oh noes! Madoka is probably badly suffering as Madokami!" So I think that Homura is at least completely sincere in coming to this belief. Alas, I also think she's mistaken, and read a bit more into Madoka's words than she should have.
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2014-06-12, 07:26 | Link #2009 |
Romance Expert
Join Date: Feb 2012
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just cause your yandere doesnt mean you'll actively go out to screw out other people for no reasons.
even yuno much later, left yuki's friends well alone when they werent trying to stop/obstruct her. she doesnt have a vendetta on them, and even let the guy who bullied yuki, the girls who tried to kill him, and her love rival be close to yuki... she only reacted when they started to block her way. I can sort of see that, well depending on how homura would be now, that she might consider offing the girls if they prove to be too resistant or bothersome to madoka.
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2014-06-12, 11:22 | Link #2010 |
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After re-watching the movie, three completely new questions came to mind for me:
1. Are Incubators still recruiting more magical girls? Or has Homura stopped further recruitment, while sort of grandfathering in Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko, etc...? 2. If Incubators are still recruiting, is Madoka actually able to make another wish now? I mean, now that she's been turned into a normal girl again, would Kyubey consider her as never having been a magical girl in the first place, and hence able to become that all over again? 3. With 2 in mind, was Kyubey mind-wiped like Madoka and Sayaka were? I was going to ask these questions on the fanfic thread, but I think they're questions that all movie-watchers might care about.
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2014-06-12, 13:19 | Link #2011 |
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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If QB is now in... whatever condition that was, where do magical girls come from in Homu's remade universe? Does Homura actually have any plans to combat entropy, or defeat the Wraiths?
What I got from the ending is that the universe is now less stable than it was in the TV series' ending, unless there's a bunch of things we're not told about in regards to like, what happened to the magical girl system. |
2014-06-12, 14:03 | Link #2012 | ||
The True Culprit
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1) Homura poses a loaded scenario; she presents her grief as a dream and doesn't give Madoka the full context. Whether Homura knows it or not, she gears Madoka towards a specific answer because the scenario doesn't include WHY she would leave, or how necessary it would be to protect her friends and family. Or that she'd always be with them. And that no one would miss her except Homura, and even then only temporarily. 2) Homura poses a loaded question in the hallway, giving her the option of 'which is more important; the laws of the world, or personal desires?' Of course Madoka would say the former. Almost anyone would. You can't just go running around breaking the law just because you want to, and anyone who isn't a complete nutcase would say so. Homura specifically painted the option SHE'D take as the irresponsible, 'evil' one. Hell, this is a Madoka who doesn't know about magic. She might not even understand that Homura isn't talking about, like, stealing things, or something. Quote:
And unless Homura has a way of permanently stopping the Wraiths, he should still be recruiting. That said, I don't think Madoka is a viable target simply because Homura's in control and can pretty much make Kyubey leave her alone now. "She's off limits. Go near her, die. Talk to her, die. Let her become aware that magic exists and you will wish I had simply killed you." That being said, Madoka could PROBABLY make another wish, if the opportunity was set for it.
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2014-06-12, 18:57 | Link #2013 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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So I don't think Homura made a mistake. I think Madoka the goddess probably really was unhappy to some extent. The moral issue, imo, is the fact that Homura took Madoka's free will. She might have done it to help her but it's still wrong, and Homura knows it, hence she sees herself as evil and try to play the part to cope with her guilt. But again, I don't think her actions are misguided.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2014-06-12 at 21:36. |
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2014-06-12, 19:46 | Link #2014 | |
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Madokami constantly looks happy, often downright blissful. That's true for her brief appearance in the movie as well, with one obvious exception, and that exception only supports the idea that Madokami is truly happy. The exception is that Madokami starts to truly panic when Homura begins overwhelming her. Her panicking like that strongly suggests that she was quite happy and content as Madokami, and wanted to stay that way. "Maybe Madokami is faking it." Oh, you mean like how Madoka successfully put on a strong face after Mami's death? Do you mean how Madoka kept a stiff upper lip after Sayaka's body briefly went lifeless in Episode 6? Do you mean how Madoka kept her feelings to herself when Sayaka's lifeless body was presented to her in Episode 9? Do you mean how Madoka didn't start crying bitterly during that one horrific scene in Timeline 3 where Mami sort of snapped? Oh wait... Madoka is one of the least pretentious fictional characters of all-time. She couldn't even manage to look strong and act normal in the presence of her parents in Episode 4. While Sayaka at least was able to casually chit-chat on the way to school, Madoka looked and acted like a Key sad girl in the snow. Madoka has never been good at hiding her emotions, so why should Madokami be any different? I don't see any good reason whatsoever for thinking that Madokami wasn't, on the whole, happy and content. I think Homura's actions were misguided (even if understandable), and I think I have very good reason for thinking that.
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2014-06-12, 20:17 | Link #2015 | |
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What the movie questions, through Sayaka, is the morality of Homura's actions, not whether those actions are motivated by misguided conclusions. I do respect your opinion, but I don't see it.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2014-06-12 at 21:32. |
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2014-06-12, 21:09 | Link #2016 | |||
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As Madoka's personal feelings reflect upon our evaluation of Homura's actions and motivations, I don't consider Madoka's sense of duty a bad thing. Rather, I have to say that I saw a resemblance to Madoka's mother in her focused and dispassionate visage, as she tried to recall her goddess memories (and spoke of where she should be) prior to her and Homura's confrontation, which was actually rather impressive/interesting. However, as far as Homura's own actions and feelings, I don't perceive that there is anything wrong or that she is at all unjustified in considering that Madoka's ascension/separation from the mortal universe is an unacceptable sacrifice. Ultimately, Homura's powergrab is nothing but her own equivalent self-actualization. Homura's will/truth is that Madoka's happiness is above all other values/existences in the universe; against obstacles to Madoka's happiness then, including other people/a society to which Madoka feels bound by duty to give up her own happiness, it thus stands to reason for them to be subjugated/destroyed. Considering aspects of Homura's characterization (her loathing for the world at large ("irredeemable"), and her own self-loathing), there can be no doubt that Homura's ultimate desire/concern is Madoka's happiness, not her own. From the standpoint of an external observer, then, between Homura's exclusive love for Madoka and Madoka's universal love for the world, I have no reason to pick a side. Both are equally compelling to me as motives/characterizations. So as long as there is some aspect of Madokami's existence which indeed interferes with Madoka's happiness, I don't consider Homura "mistaken". edit: I do think there is an irony in the story's 'duty'/'desire' dichotomy in that ultimately it seems like Homura herself is also acting out of duty rather than desire. Homura's dedication to Madoka's happiness at the expense of her own signifies a rejection of her own desires. One interesting example of this I think is Homura's reasoning for rejecting Sayaka's proposal of indulging the happy illusion of her witch world. Homura's justification at that point was that doing so would be a disrespect to Madoka's sacrifice (although, if I recall correctly, at that point Homura believed the Madoka present in her labyrinth was a fake). This would be one incident which essentially illustrates that Homura's actions regarding Madoka, and likely some part of her loathing towards other parts of the world, stem from a sense of duty towards her. ("Never forget: Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you." ) Last edited by Sol Falling; 2014-06-12 at 21:31. |
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2014-06-12, 22:03 | Link #2017 | |||||||
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I'm more or less with AuraTwilight - Homura's questions are pretty loaded, and almost any sane reasonably law-abiding person would answer the way Madoka did. Quote:
This could certainly suggest that much the same is true for Madoka. Quote:
My opinion on this is perfectly viable, and hence should not be hard to "see". Speaking of seeing, that's a key for me here. One of the oldest rules of good writing is as follows - "Show, don't tell". Going by that rule, Madokami was clearly and unambiguously happy. Quote:
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In fact, that's what I'm inclined to believe, which is why I almost completely disagree with you on this topic. If Madoka was happy as Madokami then it makes Homura's actions a clear mistake, given the very basis of those actions. It would be an understandable and probably forgivable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2014-06-12 at 22:24. |
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2014-06-12, 23:02 | Link #2018 | ||
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But really, the movie just doesn't even attempt to invalidate Homura's reasoning. The two moments when the matter is mentioned in the movie are consistent on this. You said there is evidence that Homura was mistaken but there's none as far as I can see. All in all, I've no reason to doubt that her conclusions about Madoka are correct. Quote:
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2014-06-12 at 23:13. |
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2014-06-12, 23:07 | Link #2019 | |
The Mage of Four Hearts
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She did what she did because she loves Madoka and wants to be near her. Homura may have gotten the idea based on what Madoka said, but in the end she did what she did for her.
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2014-06-12, 23:20 | Link #2020 | |
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But like I said, I don't think that's the case. I think her conclusions about Madoka are pretty much correct.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2014-06-13 at 00:54. |
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