2018-04-14, 14:12 | Link #2021 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 40
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2018-04-14, 14:13 | Link #2022 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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It probably wold take something really drastic for her to open up. Remember how Mitsuru didn't want to listen to reason and Kokoro had to put her life on the line to make him listen? And Mitsuru wasn't nearly as hurt as 02. There's no way you can feel remorse if you don't feel empathy. And that's something you learn by interacting with others. But she was isolated, and by the time she started to interact with others, it was too late because she was already predisposed to not trust them.
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2018-04-14, 14:17 | Link #2023 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 40
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Not everything about being human is a learned behavior. If we didn't have certain built in characteristics we wouldn't have been able to thrive as a species. |
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2018-04-14, 14:17 | Link #2024 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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You say that she needs something drastic to wake her up. Then this is it. Like she said, this is her punishment for her actions. Let this be her wake up call that its not her appearance, but her actions.
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2018-04-14, 14:23 | Link #2026 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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And I disagree she has to redeem herself. I don't think she does. In fact, she doesn't have to try to be human either. I think that's what she's gonna learn at the end. That she's fine the way she is. I bet Hiro will change to be with her instead.
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2018-04-14, 14:25 | Link #2027 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 40
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Besides, as I said. There were plenty of other decisions for 02 to have made from a purely pragmatic perspective. Social norms be damned. |
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2018-04-14, 14:27 | Link #2028 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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One of my favorite shows this year was Violet Evergarden because it showed how hard it is to develop empathy and learn to care as an adult if you didn't learn these things when you were a child. In fact, we could make a lot of parallelisms between Violet and 02. Violet was lucky there were people that put a lot of effort into teaching her how to be human. And also she had a job that was perfect for that as well. 02 on the other hand is still in a toxic environment that keeps dragging her down.
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2018-04-14, 14:28 | Link #2029 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 40
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Because it sounds like what you're saying is that there is absolutely no problem with her gleefully beating the team to a pulp without provocation. Okay so again: What she did wasn't just bad from a societal point of view. What she did was bad from a pragmatic point of view. |
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2018-04-14, 14:35 | Link #2030 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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That's irrelevant. It's like blaming a blind for not been able to see. It's pointless.
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2018-04-14, 14:35 | Link #2031 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Texas, US
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Cannibalism is regarded as evil in the modern world, but some primitive tribes in the middle of nowhere might not think so. |
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2018-04-14, 14:39 | Link #2032 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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That's a leap. Sure she admits she was using him and she might feel bad about that to some extent, but not so much because she knows it was the wrong thing to do. I don't think she knows that at all. But rather because she has come to care about him on a personal level. He's kinda similar to the darling in her memories after all. She even called him darling too. That's a big clue.
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2018-04-14, 14:40 | Link #2033 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 40
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Quote:
Being violent towards people is incredibly likely to make those people treat you poorly. That's not a society thing, it's a nature thing. |
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2018-04-14, 14:42 | Link #2034 | ||
The Chaotic Dreamer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a cruel yet beautiful world
Age: 32
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I actually had this whole thing I was going to jump into for my thoughts on this episode, but if you combine Twi and Dengar's thoughts, that pretty much sums up where I'm at on this episode. Several characters didn't handle things as best they could, but Zero Two was the worst... Though, to be clear, I'm not saying this makes her a bad character. I love that her abusive and manipulative actions finally had consequences. I love that they showed us she's aware of what she's done, and she does feel guilt over it (at least towards Hiro). And yes, she is unstable in many ways. You would be too after years of torture. But she is not some force of nature who had zero agency in what she actively chose to do up to that point. This has already been argued into the ground in this thread, but I think this episode really solidifies it because of Hiro's reaction to her in the medical ward. I love Zero Two to death and I desperately want her to have a happy ending, but she was completely in the wrong for what she did in that fucking room. As for Ichigo and the rest of the team? I understand where they were coming from and the support they were showing Hiro was, in and of itself, good. But they went way overboard. (The only saving graces being Goro and Kokoro.) And sure, it's tropey. It's messy. It's not a good look. But I didn't see it as bad writing at all, personally. People do this. They fail to communicate and jump to conclusions and are incredibly selfish. There's only but so much you can expect from throwing a bunch of very different adults into a group, let alone children. Don't get me wrong, I truly feel for Goro... but Ichigo doesn't really owe him anything. Could she have been civil about properly turning him down just as he was civil about putting his heart out there for her? Absolutely. It would've been polite. But was she obligated to? Nope. I'm actually a bit worried because I don't have a clear idea of what will occur from here on out. I didn't think we'd get to the Grand Crevasse this fast. I didn't think we'd be seeing the Nines again this fast. Hell, I didn't think Zero Two would leave that fast. I just want all of these dumb kids to be okay. (Except for Nine Alpha. He's a dick and he can burn for all I care. )
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2018-04-14, 14:51 | Link #2036 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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The reaction is natural, but you need to live in society to become aware of it and incorporate it into your value system. Even animals become violent and antisocial when they grow in isolation. This has been tested with chimps. You need to interact with others in a positive way during your childhood in order to become a socially-functional person. There's no way around this.
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2018-04-14, 14:51 | Link #2037 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
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yeah basically he did a "domino effect" using ichigo for his purpose to get back zero 2, while he did not planned everything, for sure all the discord and losing trusth was really as "he planned' he clear saw ichigo feelings toward zero 2 partner and used it for hims own means which is get back zero 2 and to be honest probably he did not act alone and the old fart shirt concil probably backed him, and the nine team "being there" was part of the plans, now we are getting what they wanted, for sure the elite team being "in the lab" not was just a coincidence and was planned.
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2018-04-14, 14:55 | Link #2038 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Those primitive tribes might have a reason for cannibalism though. Some might see it as partaking in the strength of their opponent or something more akin to Shamanism. Or they might really need to eat and you have the corpses of enemies or the dead. The reason for the cannibalism is the crux of the issue. Zero Two's actions, in relevance to the discussion, is that pragmatically speaking, she made things harder for herself. She found someone who was willing to give her everything he could to make her happy and people around her who were willing to welcome her, but she called them fodder and tried actively to kill the one pilot she's been able to ride with multiple times. I really don't even think she knew he was turning into a monster until Ichigo told her since Nine Alpha put that thought into her head and she overhead Nana and Hachi. @ Kazu-kun You've give reasons for why she might be doing all of this and I agree that context behind the acts matters, though you lean more heavily than I do in one direction, so I'll ask you how would you recommend she fix this situation? We can go back and forth on the subject of why she did it, but what can she do to resolve the matter of what has happened?
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2018-04-14, 14:59 | Link #2039 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
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2018-04-14, 15:08 | Link #2040 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokio
Age: 36
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when hiro will finally decide to go look for 02 he will be her NEW darling
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