2010-06-09, 18:14 | Link #2041 | ||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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2010-06-09, 18:22 | Link #2042 | ||
Mad Scientist #0000
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You certainly misunderstand the situation. Sakura has never gone insane. She became warped due to AM's influence and the mental strain. Also she had Zouken controlling her until the last day when she "killed" him. She wasn't beyond saving as the story proves and Shirou felt that. Also you know...Shirou is shirou: Impossible just means he has to give his all to accomplish it or so he believes.
And indeed saving her is the more viable option as purely defeating her is pretty much impossible.For example even with the Zelretch Sword's infinite supply Rin actually was up to a defeat. She could just barely match Sakura and needed to blow up the Zelretch sword to gain a short advantage...which would've ultimately ended up in Saber Alter massacring her. Sakura could've called Dark Saber any minute and before Rin could've landed the finishing strike she appears and ends the battle. That's what happened in the last bad end. Interestingly at that certain end Shirou too thought that Sakura has gone too far. So I guess he still felt something in Sakura which proved she can be still saved. He saw a light from which Rin somehow deliberately averted her eyes. Also to add Rin realized in the end that she's the same as Shirou and can't kill Sakura. So I don't see what Shirou believed as unreasonable. The situation was clearly desperate but not totally. And in the end I must add that by the time we got to that second confrontation Shirou has already decided to use everything he can for Sakura. He had no other way. Quote:
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I just realized you meant that future call. It's set only in the near future, it doesn't tell much either.Well, he will if Rin doesn't stop him. Although I slightly doubt it. Rin didn't real shown to be capable of stopping Shirou. He always got his way through and sacraficed himself recklessly. Rin just choose to get along. I doubt it would change really much with them later. Anyways that selfless attitude which will make Shirou the tool of others. He has no desire or more like he just didn't realized it clearly. At least in UBW Rin is sharp enough to realize when someone really pulls the strings for Shirou. But eventually Shirou's selfless and reckless attitude will lead to early death. I have no problem with idealism, just never get overboard with it. Actually, I have a few idealistic views but seriously, being idealistic is like being deaf or more like hearing just one tune from the many. It simplifies things and keeps the matters pure but no matter how well-set the idealism is it never be true. It will always have set-backs. Believing in one idea alone, thinking that doing ultimate good is the best is just delusion. Sometimes vile things lead to grand revelations. Not always but sometimes. It's quite strange but true. The world has both good and evil or more like it depends on viewpoint. Well, I won't bore you with this anymore.I am just saying that Shirou-like idealism is unhealthy as the VN too points out. Last edited by willyvereb; 2010-06-09 at 18:56. |
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2010-06-09, 18:42 | Link #2043 | |||||||
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2010-06-09, 18:44 | Link #2044 | |
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At the battle in the cave, killing her at that point wouldn't have accomplished anything as Avenger was pretty much done anyway. Rin realized she couldn't kill her own sister so that is a different situation altogether. Sakura of course repaid that by almost killing Rin. I do find it interesting that Shirou was being somewhat hypocritical as Kotomine points out that Shirou is passing judgment on future actions in regards to Avenger something he didn't do with Sakura. |
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2010-06-09, 19:26 | Link #2045 | |||||
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2010-06-09, 23:07 | Link #2046 | |||||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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As for Zouken detecting him, I'm not quite sure if Gil can go spirit form or not ( the scene in Fate where he fights Saber indicates he can, as well as the fact that he disappears when killed like other Servants, but if he went in there in spirit form, would Zouken notice? Quote:
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I disagree totally with your views on Shirou and Rin. They complement each other, since both can help the other in their path through life, but stopping the other when they go to far, like Shirou and his idealism and Rin in her responsibilities as a magus. However, unlike Shirou and Sakura, they aren't utterly dependent on each other and can walk on their own. And Shirou likes Rin's tsundereing, because it makes his life exciting. Sakura certainly can't say the same... Quote:
Please read what you just wrote. Two people who cannot live without the other is healthy to you? That's normally called mental instability. They take people to mental hospitals for that. Yes, Sakura isn't normal, and someone like Shirou is needed to help her, but not necessarily in a romantic sense. They'd be better off waiting for them to go through their problems first. Quote:
And please point out a case where a superhero had the clear choice between the life of a loved one and the lives of hundreds of people, please? Quote:
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Spoiler for Hollow Ataraxia:
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2010-06-10, 09:03 | Link #2047 | ||||||||||
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But, to say that they should avoid a relationship because they care too much for each other is ridiculous. Quote:
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That's the point, I suppose. FSN provides a rather thorough deconstruction of those sort of heroes. In reality, they would be forced to make such decisions, and the result would either be something like HF Shirou, someone who protects the people they know first, or someone like MoS Shirou, who would inevitably break in the end, like Kiritsugu did. Incidentally, superheroes do pick certain groups of people to protect. Superman, for example, protects Metropolis and his friends more closely than the rest of the world. If there's a major disaster, he'll go anywhere to deal with it, but more minor things he can only deal with in his local vicinity. Quote:
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Well, I don't know enough about HA to argue with that.... |
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2010-06-10, 09:31 | Link #2048 | |||
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I just meant that Shirou is lucky there wasn't more permament mental damage from the incident. Quote:
That was me being a wise-ass. Quote:
Also would like to respond a bit to your claim that most superheroes would end up like Kiritsugu. That I would actually doubt and feel that it would be more similar to UBW in that they would question if they want to be a superhero(although different for obvious reasons mostly due to Shirou's ideal is not being a superhero) and afterwards understand the negatives and still choose to move forward. Many superheros stop being their alternate identity due to stress on their personal lives for a time being (obvious case being Peter Parker) but almost always decide to continue fully knowing the detriment it will have on their lives. |
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2010-06-10, 11:21 | Link #2049 | |||||
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I never claimed you did. It was just an incidental point.
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There's a difference between being unable to save a loved one and actively making a decision to kill that loved one when they perhaps could have been saved. HF Shirou didn't think Sakura was unsalvageable, so killing her would break him. I can't think of any superhero who has been forced into a situation where they are forced to kill someone they love in cold blood when they were clearly not an immediate danger to anyone. |
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2010-06-10, 13:18 | Link #2050 | |||
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2010-06-10, 15:06 | Link #2051 | |||||||||||||
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It helps that Sakura is exceptionally strong (mentally), and he knows that she is. Having said that, Shirou most definitely did make a severe error in the ending, that being failing to realise how much his death would hurt her. His lack of self-worth meant that he couldn't percieve how important he was to others, and so he thought that, provided he solved all of Sakura's problems, she would live a happy life without him, whereas in fact she simply couldn't accept that he was gone and spent the rest of her life mourning him. Quote:
In fact, if killing Sakura was the right thing to do, Zouken wouldn't have told Shirou the truth in the first place. He's not an idiot. He knew that Shirou betraying Sakura would be the final push needed to break her control over the shadow, and thus allow him to use her properly. He quite obviously had no wish to destroy the shadow, because he couldn't care less what happens to everyone else, and if he does lose control (as he claimed he had) the worst that can happen to him is death, and in the situation that they're in at that point his death is inevitable anyway unless he wins the war (because Rin certainly isn't going to leave him be, and nor would Shirou, plus he has no way of gaining the Grail). The whole thing is set up by Zouken from the start, so it's only natural for Shirou's attempt to fail, because that's what Zouken wanted to happen. It's not Nasu forcing the whole thing down your throat, it's Zouken continuing his Xanatos gambit, which requires Sakura to be alive and to break. Quote:
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Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-06-10 at 15:17. |
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2010-06-10, 15:36 | Link #2052 | |||||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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About the heart worm, I'm also not 100% positive on that. His soul is always in there, and he remote controls his normal worm body from there, right? Quote:
Also, I don't think that their problems are so special that only they can solve them, you know? Quote:
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They should avoid getting into a relationship the first chance they get, yes. They should wait until they work out their problems, then go into a relationship. it's better in the long run. Quote:
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And Superman paying attention to Metropolis is because he lives there. I doubt if he ws forced to choose between Earth and Metropolis he'd choose Metropolis. Quote:
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2010-06-10, 15:56 | Link #2053 | |||||||||||||
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As for breaking, it's certain. As a human, we are simply not able to care for everyone equally unless we care for no-one at all, because our minds cannot cope with thinking of 6 billion people as 'people'. So, someone who takes the MoS route has to stop caring about people (because if they care about someone, then they will probably eventually be forced to betray that person to uphold their ideal), and thus cannot live anything resembling a human life. But, since the only people who would want to do such a thing are likely to be people who care deeply about others, preventing themselves from doing so is pretty much impossible. Quote:
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The way you say this implies that Saber is the 'natural' choice for Shirou, and that only if she vanishes would he ever pick anyone else. To me, it's the other way around. Sakura is the natural choice. He loves her already, and all that needs to happen is for him to realise this. So, it's only natural that he would attempt to protect her if she's feeling ill. and to protect her from Shinji. I don't see how any of the events of the war prior to the school/church scenes would have gone any differently if Saber had been around, and once you've been through those, you're guarenteed to end up on the Sakura route. |
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2010-06-10, 18:08 | Link #2054 | ||||||||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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And Rin can do just as good a job of getting him to think of himself as Sakura can, and he doesn't even have to throw away his ideals to do so. Quote:
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When I meant breaking, I didn't mean going through the entire MoS lifestyle, just that decision, my loved one or everybody else. Most people who chose to kill their loved one would just hate themselves and eventually keep moving onwards. Quote:
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2010-06-11, 11:20 | Link #2055 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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@Endscape: It seems you didn't fully read my post or decided to ignore a few parts of it.
I am lazy to cite your post so I do it the easier way. I get to the point. You clearly generalizing and it appears you are adamant on anti-shipping Sakura.For starters calling someone mentally unstable wouldn't prove anything. Instability as chaos has many forms. Unstable people tend to still find some kind of new order to resort to. Claiming someone mentally unstable doesn't automatically mean they are the incarnates of devil and must be abhorred and avoided at all costs. To begin with whether someone mentally unstable depends heavily on viewpoint. Just from forum post I can prove that you or anyone else is mentally unstable because of this and that. It's easy, mentally unstable AKA crazy or abnormal means someone has an attitude or behavior different from the norm.At least those are the signs of that. But let's leave it because it leads to nowhere. You claimed post-HF Sakura mentally unstable. True, her situation isn't normal like her circumstances were but she's certainly recuperating with very promising results. You stated that Sakura in HF-normal is the proof she's sick. Well, it's more like she keeps being chained to the past. In my view it's mental instability but according to the general idea it really isn't. She simply can't move forward. Many horrible things happened in his life,she unconsciously committed horrible deeds and she lost the most precious person in her life. How you expect her to live a normal life? Have you ever experienced the death of someone close to you? Have you ever experienced a situation where you lost your very last bit of hope? That's what Sakura experienced though to the credit of her state she still managed fine. She realized that Shirou did it all for her sake,she realized that she must be happy and not sadden her Senpai in Heaven by giving in to the guilt. She remained strong but she still couldn't go on. Ironically it's exactly because Shirou's sacrifice. The one she admired for 4 long years, the one who showed her how to endure her horrible life and the one she saw as her only linger of hope is dead. He died to give her the well-deserved freedom. That's why she can't leave the house. The memories binding her to that place were incredibly strong. Still, she wasn't mentally unstable by the general viewpoint. She was heartbroken, bitter inside but she lead a relatively normal life. She stayed in the Emiya residence, took on Rin's job at overseeing Fuyuki and acted as a loving and caring aunt for Rin's child. Do you really think that this is the profile of someone who can't be trusted? It appears that you may have yet to fall really in love with someone. That or you simply don't try to think about Sakura's situation much. Perhaps as a third option you may haven't read the storyline of Heavens Feel properly and skipped the details. Anyways, your statement about Sakura lacks base. It may even be because of your relative idealism. If so then it's a good proof to show how unreasonable and judgmental the idealistic view really is. Idealism simplifies the otherwise complicate matters at the cost of truth. I am not saying it's bad as we can't be all-knowing but a certain balance is always needed. It seems I am drifting away from the topic. Well, in short neither Sakura's situation nor her past deeds make her unsuitable to be in a relationship. Sakura can't really be happy without Shirou. I can't say she can't live as she possess an extreme attachment to life, maybe because she never had much of it. She isn't clingy either, to be precise she's so reserved that she wouldn't dare to bother anyone, or at least before she gets some confidence. She needs to gather her confidence and see her own worth in life which she will eventually get together with Shirou. Shirou, our protagonist is the same. He has to make peace with his past, find his real self and accustom to his new reforged ideal and life. He needs Sakura almost just as much. Not because the horrible experienced made him that broken but because he was secretly broken to begin with. Of course, you're free to not like or hate Sakura and her pairing with Shirou in private. Whether you like or hate something is a subjective matter. One can love something while the other could hate it without, neither needs a reason. Oh, I have another miss! I forgot to mention the matters regarding Shirou's choice. Well, it has much to do with his own feelings. People aren't machines to follow a single code for everything (Except Kiritsugu though he is often called as a virtually heartless killing machine so...). Shirou loved Sakura so much he can't hate her no matter what. Actually, he slowly realized that the Shadow who goes around in town and kills people without exception is Sakura.But he consciously blocked that revelation and strongly denied the idea. We can't blame him though. He's just a human who can't believe something as ridiculous as that. He didin't have a proof to back up that suspicion. And what he can do even if he realizes it and knowledges that as a fact? Kill her? He might have tried if he didn't love Sakura so much but even if he tries Rider would kill him before he succeeds. Then? Premediated well thought out murder? That really isn't Shirou's style and would lead to a MoS style broken Kirigitsu-style emotionless man. Do we really want to blame and despise Shirou for not turning into a hollow man? It sounds really ridiculous. Perhaps tracing Rule Breaker may have worked but Shirou isn't smart enough to come up with that without knowing the exact nature of Sakura's affliction. Then at the second confrontation where Shirou needed to make a choice again he decides to save her. Why, you ask? Because Shirou realizes that she isn't beyond saving. Her speech if you remember clearly mirrors that. She explicitly warns them what's about to come, how they must run away and she even offers that she will try her hardest and commit suicide to prevent AM's awakening (something which he fails to do because of the far-spread influence of AM and Zouken's tampering). This is clearly not the way a completely crazy and psycho woman speaks. To add she had more than enough power to crush Shirou and Rin like bugs but she decided to not to. Rin doesn't or decides to not ot realize this and blatantly states Sakura is beyond saving. But it isn't like that for Shirou. To begin with he isn't the type to give up. Also he's quick to pick up the signs after the confrontation (Of course he was utterly shocked and said some unreasonable and stupid things when he saw her like that). He remembers Rule Breaker and that AM-whatever and his contract to Sakura is responsible for this whole mess. He doesn't need anything else besides that. Actually contrary to your statement Shirou's idea was quite reasonable and sound for the change. The one who kept being unreasonable was ironically Rin. In addition as Cherry Lover stated too at that point fighting and killing Sakura was the harder route. Dark Sakura was a way too overpowering. Even with the assistance of the Jewelled Sword of Zelretch all Rin could manage was perpetural draw...well, until her body gives in to the stress and crumbles from overusing magic. The only way she could turn the tables by sacrificing the Sword and using every bit of its power and charge in. Though even then there's the question of Sakura's insanely fast regeneration and the fact that Saber Alter's interference destined Rin's attempt to fail. If you condemn Shirou for his choice and actions you truly don't understand the situation in HF. He wasn't a saint of course but a human being. You're just shifting the blame on him and Sakura, two people who just have drifted along with the situation. It's like the regular hypocrisy about hating weapons, especially guns. Indeed, they are tools of war and murder but who invented those? Guess Who? Us! We made them for killing and it isn't the gun which kills the people but the man who pulls the trigger. In Sakura's case it means Zouken and AM to blame.(though after HA I am not sure about the later). As it was expected they've got their punishment. Also contrary to the guns Sakura could change and live a life different from what her "maker"(Zouken) intended. I think I don't need to elaborate this more. |
2010-06-11, 12:19 | Link #2056 | ||||||||||||||||
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This argument is not borne out in any way by the VN. They don't seem to be arguing, or in any way in a situation where their relationship is likely to break. And, since they've been together for two years now and seem mostly fixed, if it was going to happen it would have happened already. Quote:
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2010-06-11, 16:21 | Link #2057 | ||||||||||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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It seems that you didn't read my post very well, willyvereb. One, I have no problem with Sakura, though she is my least favourite F/SN heroine. Also I have no problem with mentally unstable people ,or think of them as the devil or hate them or anything like that. I simply think that Sakura should work out her problems before getting into a relationship. And that starting a relationship utterly depending on the other party isn't a good thing for anyone. Quote:
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2010-06-12, 11:04 | Link #2058 | ||
Mad Scientist #0000
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Why he had forgotten her in the other routes? Well, Sakura was pretty much outside of danger and didn't take any active role in the other routes. Still, he has shown quite a concern for Sakura's well-being. For example that kind of concern is partially the reason how he got closer to Rin in UBW. One of the four somewhat romantic scenes were when Shirou decided to check on Sakura after Rider's defeat. Quote:
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2010-06-12, 12:36 | Link #2059 | ||
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The obvious way for Shirou to work is laying low, watching, and sniping when he could get away with it, like Kiritsugu once did. If he could get a rifle from the yakuza he's acquainted with, that could work out quite well. For instance, if Berserker was finishing off Archer (and far enough away from Ilya) that would be a perfect time to shoot Ilya. Two Servants and one Master down. I'm still not sure how Kotomine expects Shirou to beat him and Gil though. |
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2010-06-12, 12:44 | Link #2060 | |
King of Heroes
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Age: 38
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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