(L) Log Horizon (novel)

[Lazgrane]

The problem is gunpowder.

Well set that aside. Now that talking about alv magic, it raise a question

"Who created that barrier?" "When?"

I'm too lazy to read again but I remember that the eastals city used to be villages until the west invade them. So the barrier was only created recently.

[FRS]

One big unknown is level requirement, it may be possible to build more advanced things but the level required to craft it or use it may so high that no landers can do it.

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by Naole

Basic principles; if you can refrain from restricting your thinking you can easily recognize that a cannon is just a projectile weapon in many ways not that different from a catapult.

Two fields of science and engineering? are kidding me? knowledge of metallurgy and ballistics? really now this is taking it a step too far!

Even a cursory reading of Historical Events will tell you that When the Cast Iron Cannon was invented there wasn't anything close to resembling the modern Engineer

(And I should know because I studied Mechanical Engineering at UCT)

Who needs a modern engineer? To create the first bronze cannon (evolved from the Chinese fire lance), and the first practical ammunition, you develop pratical knowledge of metallurgy by testing out which materials won't explode on you when the cannon is fired, and then testing materials to drive down costs (leading to the switch from bronze to cast iron). Ballistics comes from figuring out how you can create a reusable charge that can fly far. The people who figured this out through trial and error were engineers of their time.

I know what you're trying to say, but ultimately we're trying to conflate barrier technology with transport gate technology, and that's why I have to argue against your analogies.

My point is that you're implying A => B is true, but in this case it's a logical fallacy because for A => B to be true, both C => B and D => B must be true, but A => C is false, and A => D is false. Even if we were to substitute A for a catapult instead of a hammer so that A => D is true (ballistics), A => B is still a false logical statement because wood tensile strength tests and the principles of leverage are still a few degrees of separation away from metallurgy.

Like you, I graduated from an engineering program as well, and I remember learning that, like the engineers of the past, the greatest advancements from modern engineering come from understanding why things break (otherwise we'll keep doing what works). The adventurers may not have that luxury. For all we know, PH permanently damaged a few transport gates in their attempts to restart them, which is why they're operating in a limited capacity.

EDIT:

Thinking out of the box usually means that you figure out how to apply your knowledge of one domain to another domain where that knowledge normally isn't applied. The barrier was implied to have been developed by the landers using knowledge of Alv technology, which I agree is an example of out-of-the-box thinking. Why I continue to disagree with the ultimate conclusion is because, like there many fields of engineering (mechanical, electrical, civil, etc.), there may be different streams of Alv knowledge that were applied to the two technologies.

[ArmaniWeston]

Originally Posted by FRS

One big unknown is level requirement, it may be possible to build more advanced things but the level required to craft it or use it may so high that no landers can do it.

Well it could be possible using an Overskill, and there also might be a loophole the Alvs used to make their extremely advanced magic/tech.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Rendius

Thinking out of the box usually means that you figure out how to apply your knowledge of one domain to another domain where that knowledge normally isn't applied. The barrier was implied to have been developed by the landers using knowledge of Alv technology, which I agree is an example of out-of-the-box thinking. Why I continue to disagree with the ultimate conclusion is because, like there many fields of engineering (mechanical, electrical, civil, etc.), there may be different streams of Alv knowledge that were applied to the two technologies.

I'm not on the transport gate issue (that was somebody else's point); so I won't touch that!

Not toot my field area but mechanical engineers can handle some of the simple tasks of electrical, civil and even murturlegist. The same can and should be assumed of Landers

Your argument completely ignores the most fundamental point; the landers built the systems

We're not talking about the medieval age here! If you expand the scope of thinking and reasoning you Quickly realise that your looking at a post apocalyptic scenario; complete with physical evidence of an Advanced civilizations in the way of buildings, cars and others.

In that scenario reverse engineering ancient technologies would naturally become the norm for people, and that forms a logical path to reverse engineering Alv technologies.

Thus a people adept reverse engineering technologies would undoubtedly develop the rudimentary systems necessary to operate derivative technologies; if you can accept that the Barrier & City Magical Energy Grid was built by the Landers!

Without knowing what actually powers the Magical Energy Grid the expertise of the Kunie clan become sacrosanct. For all we know its some sort of Mana generator; producing Astronomical amounts of Magical Energy!

The expansion of the world and the Flavour Text raises new and Interesting issues to look forward to!

1. What I'd like to know is whether it's stated how quickly the world is expanding?
2. Are we looking at a hollow Earth scenario?
3. What does that say about the world they're trapped in?
4. Is there now sufficient information to speculate on whether it is an alternate world or something akin to a computer simulation?; though technically speaking our entire universe could be a virtual reality simulation and we would never know it

[Xellos-_^]

Your argument completely ignores the most fundamental point; the landers built the systems

1. False, we don't know who built the system. You are assuming the landers built it but assumtion is not fact.

2. even if the landers built the machine, we don't know if they still have the knowledge or even the materials is available.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

[/B]
1. False, we don't know who built the system. You are assuming the landers built it but assumtion is not fact.

2. even if the landers built the machine, we don't know if they still have the knowledge or even the materials is available.

Clearly you haven't been following the discussion so you don't realize that it's already been agreed that Landers built the system as stated in VOl 3 in the chapter on World Fraction

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...66#post5003066

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by Naole

Not toot my field area but mechanical engineers can handle some of the simple tasks of electrical, civil and even murturlegist. The same can and should be assumed of Landers

Yes, modern engineering is a multifaceted discipline, but I won't automatically assume that a mech eng can design a computer processor or that a civil engineer can build a combustion engine. Similarly, I won't assume that each lander scholar is connected to a central hive of knowledge.

Originally Posted by Naole

Your argument completely ignores the most fundamental point; the landers built the systems

Humans built the Library of Alexandra; different humans burned it down. My argument doesn't ignore the possibility of some lander group A once having the knowledge to create the systems, but it doesn't jump to the conclusion that because lander group B still exists, so does the knowledge from group A.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Rendius

Yes, modern engineering is a multifaceted discipline, but I won't automatically assume that a mech eng can design a computer processor or that a civil engineer can build a combustion engine. Similarly, I won't assume that each lander scholar is connected to a central hive of knowledge.

A branch of MechEng called Mechatronics can design a computer processor!
Your making your own assumption that the landers have organized their technical fields the way we have; it may be that because of Magic they can group what would be a wide range of fields under one roof.

You can't base your argument on an assumption and then then ignore the assumption!

Originally Posted by Rendius

Humans built the Library of Alexandra; different humans burned it down. My argument doesn't ignore the possibility of some lander group A once having the knowledge to create the systems, but it doesn't jump to the conclusion that because lander group B still exists, so does the knowledge from group A.

The Kunie clan are clearly stated as the operators and maintainers on the system; therefore in systems thinking terms they would be akin to maintenance engineers with a working knowledge of the Magical Energy Grid System.

By the way Rendius; what Eng did you study?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Naole

Clearly you haven't been following the discussion so you don't realize that it's already been agreed that Landers built the system as stated in VOl 3 in the chapter on World Fraction

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...66#post5003066

that is your speculation.

speculation does not equal fact.

Everything is speculation until the author confirms or denied.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that is your speculation.

speculation does not equal fact.

Everything is speculation until the author confirms or denied.

Dude you don't have to take my word; it's in the book read it for yourself!

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

The problem is gunpowder.

gunpowder is essentially sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate; this is high school level of complexity; not that big a challenge. However since we're dealing with Magic there might be a simpler form of magical propellent.

[DQueenie13]

Breaking the flow of the discussion!!

The amounts of "I'm sorry"s that Souji is saying in his 6 minutes of interaction in Krusty vs. Isaac is super high. Probably because both Krusty and Isaac are pretty annoyed that he interrupted their battle at its climax, bringing along all these Lander girls (or guild members? both?) that are fawning over him.

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by Naole

A branch of MechEng called Mechatronics can design a computer processor!

Sigh, I knew I shouldn't have used that analogy, as I remembered about mechatronics too late; I'm half expecting you to tell me that there's a branch of civil engineering that requires V8 engines as an implementation detail.

Originally Posted by Naole

Your making your own assumption that the landers have organized their technical fields the way we have; it may be that because of Magic they can group what would be a wide range of fields under one roof.

Using magic as a unifying field theory is totally a cop out, especially considering the author. "Doesn't make sense? Must be magic! Don't think about it too much, because it's magic!" I just don't see him doing this.

Originally Posted by Naole

You can't base your argument on an assumption and then then ignore the assumption!

Sorry, what? Feel free to point out where I did this.

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Breaking the flow of the discussion!!

The amounts of "I'm sorry"s that Souji is saying in his 6 minutes of interaction in Krusty vs. Isaac is super high. Probably because both Krusty and Isaac are pretty annoyed that he interrupted their battle at its climax, bringing along all these Lander girls (or guild members? both?) that are fawning over him.

I always wondered whether Souji is truly dense about these things, or whether he's secretly a brilliant, calculating gentleman without glasses. He seems self-aware at times, completely oblivious at others. I hope the author never tries to explain that, though, just because I think it would spoil the fun.

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Rendius

I always wondered whether Souji is truly dense about these things, or whether he's secretly a brilliant, calculating gentleman without glasses. He seems self-aware at times, completely oblivious at others. I hope the author never tries to explain that, though, just because I think it would spoil the fun.

I think he's not wholly aware/understanding about women or his harem, but knows well enough to be able to get a rise out of his peers. And, sometimes, a convenient excuse not to get completely mauled by two annoyed Guardians.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Rendius

I always wondered whether Souji is truly dense about these things, or whether he's secretly a brilliant, calculating gentleman without glasses. He seems self-aware at times, completely oblivious at others. I hope the author never tries to explain that, though, just because I think it would spoil the fun.

To be honest the way characters are portrayed in this series, I seriously doubt that the author would write such a traditional dense/oblivious shonen protagonist. XD

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

I think he's not wholly aware/understanding about women or his harem, but knows well enough to be able to get a rise out of his peers. And, sometimes, a convenient excuse not to get completely mauled by two annoyed Guardians.

I almost want to call him a magnificent bastard.

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

To be honest the way characters are portrayed in this series, I seriously doubt that the author would write such a traditional dense/oblivious shonen protagonist. XD

True enough. I'm liking how the characters are getting fleshed out, not only through the novel, but also from the manga stories. I'm hoping that we'll eventually get a peek into Isaac's and Krusty's lives, especially how they interact with their guildmates.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Rendius

Sorry, what? Feel free to point out where I did this.

Alright; here we go

Originally Posted by Rendius

I could infer that they had limited understanding of the technology they stole from the Alv. Why would they bother with fortifications if they could erect barriers that can repel all demi-human attacks?

Originally Posted by Rendius

I could then conclude that since adventurers solved most of their problems, knowledge of how to maintain ancient technology was not needed, and therefore lost in the 240 years since.

Originally Posted by Rendius

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I believe this to be a pleasant sophistry. I may be able to build a cannon if I knew how to build a hammer, but only if I also had knowledge of metallurgy and ballistics, two fields of science and engineering somewhat far removed from ancient craftsmanship.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...19#post5003519

You consistently make Erroneous Assumptions and then proceed to do mental gymnastics to support arguments made through false Assumptions

One of you Absurd Assumptions is that people Develop/Discover Advanced technology Critical to their Survival and the conveniently forget all about it.

You say this while ignoring the fact that it is clearly stated that the Kunie clan are the operators and maintainers on the system; which invariably means they have working knowledge of the Magical Energy Grid System.

Which leads me to inquire what Eng you studied?

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Naole

You consistently make Erroneous Assumptions and then proceed to do mental gymnastics to support arguments made through false Assumptions

One of you Absurd Assumptions is that people Develop/Discover Advanced technology Critical to their Survival and the conveniently forget all about it.

You say this while ignoring the fact that it is clearly stated that the Kunie clan are the operators and maintainers on the system; which invariably means they have working knowledge of the Magical Energy Grid System.

Which leads me to inquire what Eng you studied?

Just to butt in, but I'm not sure where you're drawing your conclusions about his (her?) statements from, or why you even included that last post. This is my interpretation of what Rendius said:

The people didn't, in a way, develop that technology -- the Alvs, whom they killed, had discovered and developed it (I don't know about Rendius, but I do not include Alvs as People of the Land). The people only had basic/insufficient knowledge about how the Alvs' technology worked, and then found no reason to try and learn any more due to the presence of Adventurers.

Also, just because you can operate and maintain something doesn't necessarily mean that they have thorough knowledge of its inner workings.

Rendius' English is fine. Furthermore, you're capitalizing some words that don't need capitalization.

[Lazgrane]

Yo dawgs

But they were not a banking clan.
Their duty was the management of the Alv's magic techniques.
Although they were best known for running the bank, the Kunie were also in charge of the maintenance of the magic barriers in the League of Freedom Cities Eastal. The 30 odd cities with magic barriers had ancient magic circles built underground to power the defenses of the city. It prevented any monsters from invading and also powered the mobile suits of the guards.

Volume 6 Chapter 3 part 2

Enough talking?

"That is correct. Mobile suits can only be used within the city limits. Without the magic supply from the giant magic circle built underground, the user won't be able to move a finger, a unique feature of this armor. As the magic supply wavelength is unique to each city, it will just be a heap of junk once you take it away from Akiba."

I smell nikolas tesla