[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Inbreeding can lead to a number of defects on a child, but I think transgender has little to do with that.
To put it a bit simple, men and women have 1 chromosome difference.
Men are XY, Women XX. Someone to be transgendered, they need (I'm 90% sure of) XXY or XYY. This is a defect in either the sperm cell or egg cell (defect being that either cell contains one gender-chromosome too many), and has nothing to do with genes being to similar.

[Pika_power]

In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's.

Therefore the Gold Truth is subjective, not objective. This is later backed up by Beato's Gold Truth.

The Gold Truth is a truth of observers. If everyone observing an event agrees to a certain thing happening, then that becomes Gold Truth. Beato was the only one who saw the 'magic' used to make the leaf, for example. This matches up with Will's use of it, as he defines the first part of EP4 (the part where everyone had a cohesive story) as "Gold Truth".

[witchfan]

There is no incest-related defect that affects gender. But there are some defects, unrelated to incest, which allow for an ambiguous gender. From what I know, there is no defect which would prevent you from reaching puberty.

What's important however, is that incest is nowhere near as genetically dangerous as you might think it is. The chances Kinzo and Beatrice's child would have a genetic defect is slim. Yes, it's likely she would have more in common with her father and mother than usual, but most likely not a genetic defect.

Edit: @Witch of Uncertainty, the defect you're referring to is called Klinefelter's syndrome. There are also other "transgender" defects, such as XX male, or XXYY syndrome.

[Yopee]

Incest would increase the chances for rare phenotypes to show up, assuming the parents producing the incestuous offspring are either carriers of the rare allele or express it.
A rare phenotype is something that's rare to show up compared to the rest of the population. Inheritable diseases are one of them. Kinzo's polydactyly six toes jazz definitely sounds like another since he's not the first in the line of the Ushiromiya.

Genetic defects/syndromes aren't actually associated with incest but more like crappy genes or mistakes during meiosis (sloppy chromosome splitting leading to XO, XXY, XYY, XXYY, etc.).
In other words, not really in particular to do with parent screwing child but more like someone having messed up genes or mistake in baby-making process.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Inbreeding can lead to a number of defects on a child, but I think transgender has little to do with that.
To put it a bit simple, men and women have 1 chromosome difference.
Men are XY, Women XX. Someone to be transgendered, they need (I'm 90% sure of) XXY or XYY. This is a defect in either the sperm cell or egg cell (defect being that either cell contains one gender-chromosome too many), and has nothing to do with genes being to similar.

The right word that should be used is "intersex". Nowaday it is generally accepted that "gender" must refers to the social construct of male/female differentiation and not the biological aspect.

Also the various syndromes related to error in the sexual chromosomes aren't the only nor the most common causes of it.
Most of those syndromes are also correlated with a plethora of physical disorders (hence syndrome) which Yasu never shows.


I somehow doubt that Yasu is actually intersex, and I can definitely exclude that she is transgender because she never showed any sign of that. It seems to me that she always seen herself as female.
We can only have doubts when Kanon appears but that's too late. This is not something that just pops up in adolescents (although it's usual the time one GID manifests itself), it starts from he very infancy.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by witchfan

They are able to carry out the murders. I think what Bern describes is a scenario very similar to what happened in EP4. But you are completely ignoring the message that, by now, is burned into our minds: there are no "bad people" in this story. This is a whydunit. Kyrie and Rudolf have been portrayed as greedy, perhaps even cold people, but they are most definitely not selfish as to care little for anyone but themselves. Kyrie, who has been characterized as deeply caring for her husband, is barely affected by his death. She doesn't care about her daughter and plans to abandon her. She easily murdered an entire family for what, 1 billion yen?

Is "Without love, it cannot be seen", a message which has been treated as a significant (if not the most significant) thematic element, a silly red herring? If so, there are serious issues with this mystery. I am sure it is to the contrary: you are the one blindly ignoring half the story. You hear a plausible theoretical solution to the how- and whodunit, and accept an extremely implausible whydunit without second thought.

One possible way of seeing it is: The mystery of Beatrice's heart and why she set up the roulette is the "main" mystery, the one where the "Without love, it cannot be seen" theme applies. That's the mystery that the gameboards are truly set up to solve.

The heart side seemed to feel going past that, into the Kyrie and Rudolf murders, wasn't necessary. They wanted to end it with Claire's funeral, with the mystery of Beatrice's heart finally solved. The part that lies beyond Claire's funeral is that which is, like Bernkastel said in the ????? of Episode 6, completely heartless. Going past that into the other mystery is an act of desecration on Bernkastel's part, spitting in the face of the game's themes.

Also, I'm not sure the "There's no bad people" idea is so absolute. Battler completely abandoned trying to preserve the innocence of his relatives early on.

Btw, I think you might be underestimating how much a billion yen is; it's a real shit-load of money. If Kyrie is in her 40's, it'd be enough to live the rest of her life without working and an annual stipend of $269,525 US dollars, an extremely luxurious lifestyle.

There are also precedents in the game of first presenting people as nice and caring, and them revealing them to be completely cruel: Bernkastel, Beatrice in Episode 3. I think the previous games have enough hints to suggest the possibility that Kyrie's supposed empathy is just a mask of convenience. Like she says in this EP7 tea party, of course she *acted* nice in front of other people.

[AuraTwilight]

Mayhaps she wants Battler to know the truth, and solve the mystery of her heart. But the actual text of the game is quite clear that she doesn't want the world at large to know the truth:

Battler, and other people like him who wouldn't use the truth to slander and twist things. If it was Battler-only, she wouldn't of tossed out the message bottles.

I always thought the golden truth was THE truth, no wordplay or any other things involved. In other words what witchfan said, an inarguable truth.
In that way, it can be both superior and inferior to the red
being that it's the unshrouded truth which also doesn't leave room for trickery.

So Beato can use REAL magic?

The whole "half-truth" Bern theory relies heavily on chance and doesn't make much sense. The only reason we don't hear the rest of the sentence is because Ange (it WAS Ange, right?) screams out and drowns her out. If she hadn't screamed out there, or if she had screamed a moment sooner or a moment later, Bern would have finished her sentence.

It would be pretty awkward for her to start a sentence she has to finish and then finish it, fully revealing that she was making this game up. I think putting her entire troll on the line of "gee, I sure hope she chooses to scream at this very exact moment" isn't like Bern at all. And you can't cut a red truth off halfway through saying it if it changes it's meaning, so she HAD to finish the sentence.

Aside from "Magic relies on outrageous bets" and such, Ange IS Bern's piece, and sort of has to do what she says. She might have screamed right then because she was subconsciously ordered to.

I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but I think it might have something to do with "The author (Battler) wanted to write a tale in which Beatrice could still exist so he wrote a tale with the premise that small acts of magic are possible, even if they aren't used to commit the actual crime." Or something vaguely like that. I don't even remember all the relevant elements from ep6, so I can't put together a complete explanation.

Guys, don't be stupid. That Gold Truth and the entire Episode was telling us how Beatrice defined magic: A trick that makes witnesses believe that there's no way a human could have done it, even though it was.

You've all heard of stage magic, right?

That doesn't really seem to be the case.
According to Will's use of "gold truth", it rather seems that a gold truth is a lie.

Er, look closely. He only says that Gold Truth is being coupled with Illusions.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Battler, and other people like him who wouldn't use the truth to slander and twist things. If it was Battler-only, she wouldn't of tossed out the message bottles.

The point of the message bottles is to obfuscate the truth, however.

[Helmet-kun]

Hey...I just noticed. Maybe it's just a color scheme, but...

Why is it that the word Quadrillion was lit up in red when the adults solved it, but not when Yasu solved it?

[AuraTwilight]

The point of the message bottles is to obfuscate the truth, however.

Except it then tells everyone to solve it and figure out the truth. It's an encoded message, and she only wants people with love to solve it, not assholes like Bern who'd just mock everyone's memory and have fun by disgracing everyone.

The truth is reserved for people who won't abuse it, is her intention.

Why is it that the word Quadrillion was lit up in red when the adults solved it, but not when Yasu solved it?

Probably foreshadowing about how bad shit's gonna go down.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Er, look closely. He only says that Gold Truth is being coupled with Illusions.

He doesn't say anything, but the way he mentions the gold truth in conjunction with "illusions" strongly makes me thing that the "gold truth" is nothing but a lie.

I'm sorry but your interpretation is a bit of a stretch to me. I see no magic in the claim that a door was closed when it wasn't, nor I see any magic in the claim that a puppet is Kinzo's body. Unless your definition of "magic" is "lie" in which case we are saying the very same thing.

The point of the message bottles is to obfuscate the truth, however.

Not really. You should drop any Higurashi logic if you want to understand Umineko. The situation is completely different.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

He doesn't say anything, but the way he mentions the gold truth in conjunction with "illusions" strongly makes me thing that the "gold truth" is nothing but a lie.

I always interpereted it as the Gold Truth saying 'It is impossible to know either way, but we will assume the X is true.' Like, Lion is a boy despite the lack of evidence that goes for it or the counter 'Lion is a girl'.

[Jan-Poo]

That would assume that the gold truth might be true, but I don't think that's correct.

[AuraTwilight]

He doesn't say anything, but the way he mentions the gold truth in conjunction with "illusions" strongly makes me thing that the "gold truth" is nothing but a lie.

I'm sorry but your interpretation is a bit of a stretch to me. I see no magic in the claim that a door was closed when it wasn't, nor I see any magic in the claim that a puppet is Kinzo's body. Unless your definition of "magic" is "lie" in which case we are saying the very same thing.

Er, excuse me, when did I say "Gold Truth" = "Magic"?

Anyway, if Gold Truth is merely lies, then it's nothing special that would require Gamemaster authority to speak it, and no way in hell would Lambdadelta and Bernkastel have acknowledged it. Gold Truth would be no better than mere white text.

My interpretation is that Gold Truth is the truth of Beato's heart, regardless of whether or not it is objectively true. For example, she can say that something is magic in Gold because it meets how SHE defines magic, not magic in the sense of an objectively supernatural event. And, moreover, Battler could guarantee Kinzo's corpse because Beato's seen it with her own eyes.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Er, excuse me, when did I say "Gold Truth" = "Magic"?

Anyway, if Gold Truth is merely lies, then it's nothing special that would require Gamemaster authority to speak it, and no way in hell would Lambdadelta and Bernkastel have acknowledged it. Gold Truth would be no better than mere white text.

My interpretation is that Gold Truth is the truth of Beato's heart, regardless of whether or not it is objectively true. For example, she can say that something is magic in Gold because it meets how SHE defines magic, not magic in the sense of an objectively supernatural event. And, moreover, Battler could guarantee Kinzo's corpse because Beato's seen it with her own eyes.

The fact that you need Gamemaster authority is obviously a lie. Not only Ryuukishi said in an interview that everyone can use the gold truth but we see big sister Beatrice using it as well even so she is neither the game master neither someone who has fully understood the game.

I still think that your interpretation is far fetched because I don't see any direct correlation with Beato's heart and what are lies about mundane things.
No rather I'd say it's far fetched because you think that everything that Beatrice sees or thinks is her heart.
That's a bit exaggerated don't you think? The "heart" cannot include stuff that are so superficial.

[ElderKain]

At least we know what the meaning behind the "07151129" written in blood on the one door in the early game means now ^.^

it's the...

Spoiler for What 07151129 means:

8-digit Pin number for the bank card which holds 1,000,000,000 yen on it, lol

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Not really. You should drop any Higurashi logic if you want to understand Umineko. The situation is completely different.

I haven't played Higurashi, so I'm definitely not getting anything from there.

[AuraTwilight]

The fact that you need Gamemaster authority is obviously a lie. Not only Ryuukishi said in an interview that everyone can use the gold truth but we see big sister Beatrice using it as well even so she is neither the game master neither someone who has fully understood the game.

The Gamemaster and "someone who knows all the truth, like knowing a combo in a fighting game" are essentially the same damn thing, differing only in their responsibilities. Moreover, regardless of the debatable knowledge-base of Beatrice the Elder, she still understands magic, and so her Gold Truth is still valid under my interpretation (hell, the bitch IS Beatrice, if she's not qualified to speak it, no one else).

Ryukishi never said EVERYONE could use it, only everyone who knew the truth. Don't twist his words.

I still think that your interpretation is far fetched because I don't see any direct correlation with Beato's heart and what are lies about mundane things.
No rather I'd say it's far fetched because you think that everything that Beatrice sees or thinks is her heart.
That's a bit exaggerated don't you think? The "heart" cannot include stuff that are so superficial.

Her "heart", her personhood, her soul. This refers to both Beatrice the human girl who goes by the name of Yasuda, and Beatrice, the meta-entity that is the personification of the rules. Beatrice is at the heart of everything, and so while her feelings and motivations are a major part, they are not the "whole" of who and what she is.

8-digit Pin number for the bank card which holds 1,000,000,000 yen on it, lol

We knew that since EP4. We just didn't know what the individual digits meant.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The fact that you need Gamemaster authority is obviously a lie. Not only Ryuukishi said in an interview that everyone can use the gold truth but we see big sister Beatrice using it as well even so she is neither the game master neither someone who has fully understood the game.

What he said is that certain people, who have the necessary knowledge required, can use Gold even if they're not the game master not that anyone can.

Plus Beatrice the Elder is literally represents the 'Territory Witch" part of Beato. So she should have the necessary understanding of her own fragment.

Gold Text:
If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.

If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.

So Someone like Erika can't. But someone like Will probably could if he wanted to. Assuming he understands everything.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The fact that you need Gamemaster authority is obviously a lie. Not only Ryuukishi said in an interview that everyone can use the gold truth but we see big sister Beatrice using it as well even so she is neither the game master neither someone who has fully understood the game.

I still think that your interpretation is far fetched because I don't see any direct correlation with Beato's heart and what are lies about mundane things.
No rather I'd say it's far fetched because you think that everything that Beatrice sees or thinks is her heart.
That's a bit exaggerated don't you think? The "heart" cannot include stuff that are so superficial.

Lets take it both ways, if its just a lie then Rosa is either an accomplice or the culprit in EP2, if Shkanon is true then we already can discard anything Rosa sees in that episode as she's unreliable. Now lets take it as a piece of Beatrice's heart, how would this influence the scene? Is it locked or isn't it?

I always found that scene very interesting, if it was never locked in the first place then Beatrice could have tricked Battler in the meta-fight scene. Who cares, Maria's key never left her possession. Say it and trap Battler, be off with him at the start of the game. Instead she held back only to say it on EP4 during the final confrontation, when she was practically begging Battler to kill her.