2009-03-12, 18:32 | Link #2061 | |
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Except that is not the point. The contrasting between the parenting habits of Nanoha and Fate is used to provide various development points for the both of them. nanoha, who has zero experience is going why what she believes to be the best course of action while Fate, who has had some experience contrasts Nanoha. They also both learn more about being a good parent drawing from their current envisioning of the roll and current experiences. |
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2009-03-12, 18:35 | Link #2062 |
Master of the Shiny Crack
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But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
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2009-03-12, 18:38 | Link #2063 | |
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2009-03-12, 18:45 | Link #2064 | |||
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Cuídense y sigan sonriendo |
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2009-03-12, 22:26 | Link #2065 |
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Location: Gaf's Room
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In other words, more family moments between Nanoha Fate and Vivio because it puts Nanoha and Fate together, while sacrificing both of their development, undercutting their depth and stagnating them in the same position that has been shown many many times before.
I haven't thought before about how much worst StrikerS could get but your words certainly remind me of those possibilities.
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2009-03-13, 03:23 | Link #2067 | |
Shitpost Gremlin
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
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2009-10-09, 03:26 | Link #2068 | ||||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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Ported from the image thread:
Spoiler for The image that started it all:
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Fate, on the other hand, got told by every single opponent she faced that one single hit in Sonic Form, even a glancing one, would be the end of her. And here's the beauty: Fate concurred. However, a point I will agree with you is that her defense could be a bit higher. The Barrier Jacket she is wearing -her StrikerS one- has been noted to have a higher defensive stat. However, her defense is very much lower than Nanoha's. I'd place it around the middle mark, perhaps one point below it. Sonic form would drop the line to the bottom. |
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2009-10-09, 03:44 | Link #2069 | |
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I'll drag my comment over here too..
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Nanoha was most certainly not DROPPED by Vivio during the fight on the Cradle. Vivio certainly waled on her a lot, but at no time was Nanoha down for the count that wasn't deliberate stalling for her W.A.S. |
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2009-10-09, 04:00 | Link #2070 | |||||||
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Feats are iron clad evidence right in front of our eyes. Character appraisals can be very unreliable, due to either arrogance or humility. Fate is a very humble person. This comes across a lot. It's quite possible for her to be underrating herself, as such. Quote:
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I don't think that it does. Quote:
If anything, Nanoha's defense is more questionable in my mind. I've seen an awful lot take down Nanoha's magic shields - Vivio's punches, Vita's Graf Eisen, etc... That being said, I appreciate you trying to meet me half-way, anyway. Thinking about it even more... I'd put Fate's defense on par with Nanoha's, but increase Nanoha's agility a bit. Nanoha was hanging with Fate, speed-wise/maneuverability-wise, pretty good in their original anime fights.
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2009-10-09, 04:17 | Link #2071 |
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I would point out several things here.
Defense refers to the ability to withstand a hit and not take damage. Like Armor on a tank. Fate's 'armor' (active defenses) is not very powerful, thus she doesn't rely on it. Especially after Nanoha made it clear in season when she was overpowered by Starlight Breaker Prototype. Taking a blow as you would reffer to it as Fate taking damage and getting back up is not defense, but a stat that is similar to endurance. (Damage Absorbtion) Likewise, the ability to parry blows in melee or deflect them is not defense in the sense being used here, but skill. As for your downplay of nanoha's defense levels, you're equating a cross spectrum, cross timeline series of completely isolated events and applying them to a universal context that does not exist. When Vita smashed Nanoha's barrier, she did so with a cartridge powered, rocket boosted hammer attack designed specificly for jack-hammering right through a barrier against a Nanoha who had not upgraded to matching equipment. (She had not leveled up yet one could say.) Note that later on, Vita never broke Nanoha's defenses. When Nanoha was fighting Uber Vivio in the Cradle, she was severely hampered by a high density AMF field, stressed, exhausted, and holding herself back to buy time for her WAS to located Quattro. Note that despite the barrier getting busted, Nanoha was not put out of the fight thanks to a combination of her secondary defense (barrier jacket) and some Epic level Endurance on her part. She was under all those handicapping factors, and was still tanking Vivio attacks. You cannot ignore these factors in determining Nanoha's defense. It is a Hasty Generalizaton Fallacy, Composition Fallacy, and Biassed Sample Fallacy all rolled into a neat little package and served with a side of Straw Man Fallacy. |
2009-10-09, 05:23 | Link #2072 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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This is also strike one against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's, as Nanoha has repeatedly blocked very powerful attacks. If by defensive maneuvers you mean dodging, that is classified as agility, and defensive magic is the entire point here. Quote:
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This is where appraisals come in. In this case, the DVD booklets blatantly said the Cradle's reactor boosted Vivio's power to frightening levels. Evidence to substantiate one of the claims has come forth: Vivio's powers are far above normal. Similarly, dialog can accomplish the same feat. If Nanoha were to have said "Such powerful magic" it would show that Vivio's powers were far above the norm. In this case, appraisals very much do mean more than feats. Booklets and the like are preferred, of course, since they are more objective, but dialog works too. Quote:
Strike two against Nanoha and Fate having the same defenses. Quote:
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Let's take the best comparison. The Fate versus Nanoha fight. Nanoha managed to block Fate's most powerful attack, with the extra restriction that she was bound while doing so. Fate, on the other hand, barely managed to block Nanoha's Divine Buster. heck, the shield was already being penetrated by just that blast alone, tearing her Barrier Jacket to shreds. Starlight Breaker completely obliterated it. Nanoha survived Fate's most powerful attack without a scratch while being bound, while Fate was already almost down for the count by Nanoha's regular attack. Fate lost that battle the moment she stopped dodging and started blocking. Well, Fate definitely has a higher agility. Flash Move allows short bursts of speed but straight line only, Sonic Move allows high speed maneuvering. Also, remember A's where Fate carried Nanoha away from Reinforce's Starlight Breaker. There's no reason to do that unless Fate is simply faster. Last edited by Keroko; 2009-10-09 at 06:32. |
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2009-10-09, 09:29 | Link #2073 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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No, you can't. Not unless your agility and speed trumps everybody else's, and Fate's doesn't.
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Also, one example is hardly a proof of anything. It could easily be an exception to the rule. A good melee fighter ought to be able to take a hit, Keroko. Period. Quote:
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But you see, Keroko... especially in an universe where binds exist, a good melee fighter needs to be able to take a hit. And Fate can... when she hasn't already had her defenses wore down by a divine buster. Quote:
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One can argue that Vivio's attack is very good, while Nanoha's defense is also good, but simply not as good as Vivio's attack. That is exactly what I'm arguing. Quote:
Frankly, virtually anything superhuman can be called "frightening". Quote:
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Appraisals with out feats prove nothing. Feats with out appraisals at least can point towards something concrete being true and valid. Quote:
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Anyway, Keroko, you really have to take what character's themselves say with a huge grain of salt. Characters overrate others (famous example: Batman calling the Ten-Eyes Man the most dangerous man ever ), and underrate others all the time. Quote:
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Anyway, in their last battle, Nanoha continually took Fate off-guard, at least once with sheer speed. If there is a difference between them speed-wise, it's very minute. The real difference between Nanoha and Fate is that Nanoha is a long-range blaster (for the most part) while Fate is a close-quarters melee fighter (for the most part). As such, it makes sense for Nanoha's blasts to be superior to Fate's, and it doesn't make sense at all for Fate's defense to be lower than Nanoha's.
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2009-10-09, 10:11 | Link #2074 | ||||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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I'm well aware. That's why I said could. Dialog can be used to explain differences in power, which is why characters speaking about their powers is very important. Quote:
Vita's words. Breaking things is hers and Graff Eisen's specialty. Of course there's also supporting that Graff Eisen's design, which just screams "built for breaking" as well as booklets describing Vita's attacks as barrier breakers. Quote:
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Try looking at it from an RPG style setting. Signum is a fighter, Fate is a rogue. Signum has strong armor to weather the blows that come her way, while Fate relies on dodging to protect herself. |
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2009-10-09, 10:40 | Link #2075 |
Truth Martyr
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Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
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Or in the trope definitions, Nanoha is the Tank, Fate is a Fragile Speedster, and Signum the Lightning Bruiser.
Also, something to point out: when Fate was teaching the Lightning Forwards, what did she tell them to do? Dodge. Now one can make an argument that dodging is needed for a support mage like Caro, but then when she tells Erio, the Neo-Belkan Melee mage that he needs to dodge, one starts to wonder. You don't teach people something that you don't practice and believe.
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2009-10-09, 11:20 | Link #2076 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Melee fighting involves group fighting: It's not one-on-one with no other combat participants around. From Wiki: Melee... generally refers to disorganized close combat involving a group of fighters. A melee ensues when groups become locked together in combat with no regard to group tactics or fighting as an organized unit; each participant fights as an individual. Bold emphasis mine. This is why it's important for a good melee fighter to have good defense. Because in the event of group warfare where each participant fights as an individual, the likelihood of not getting hit at all is exceedingly slim (i.e. somebody on the other side that you're not fighting directly with could sneak attack you at any time). Sure, in one-on-one combat with out other participants around, you can win a fight with out taking a single hit on the basis of speed advantage alone... but this is much more difficult to achieve in melee warfare. And, interestingly enough... Fate had no choice but to use defensive acumen (i.e. blocking) against her opponents when she went into combat inside the cradle. The reason being that she was outnumbered 3-to-1, and hence dodging everything would quite possibly be beyond even her. However, Fate won that fight, ultimately defeating all of her opponents here, demonstrating that she's a good melee fighter with good defense. So... Quote:
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So... it's very debatable if she consciously chose to stop dodging or not, Keroko. Quote:
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They've been doing this for decades, and with wide consensus agreement. Have you ever heard of Comic Book Rumbles? Quote:
Feats trump appraisals. Always. Quote:
Look, one reason why you don't put much credence in appraisals is because of things like exaggerations and hyperbole. This is very common through out fiction; creators amping up the assessment of the Big Bad (or whatever) beyond what feats demonstrate. In the case of Vivio, she clearly wasn't all that awesome, or she would have curbstomped Nanoha. Quote:
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Totally wrong. I can't believe that you're making such an awful argument. The feat itself proves that Signum can move very rapidly from Point A to Point B. The means used to achieve this is secondary to the objective fact, proved by the feat, that she can move rapidly from Point A to Point B. Quote:
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On the other hand, it makes sense to try to unnerve your opponent by having them underestimate their chances to win the battle. Quote:
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2009-10-09, 12:47 | Link #2077 | |||
The Hawk
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin, Fatherland
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She doesn't look too troubled to me.. Do note that Nanoha had to go so high over the limit she lost 9% of her strength, permanently, to defeat Vivio. I'd also like to quote Signum's and Fate's thoughts when fighting against each other. Quote:
Physically, she can take blows, she's not weak. She just has no defense, which is why every blow hurts that much more. Especially in Sonic Form. For Signum, it was necessary since Signum was stronger than her in almost all fields, so Fate sacrificed it all to have at least one field where she has the huge advantage (speed).
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2009-10-09, 15:18 | Link #2078 |
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Didn't want a new thread for this, but not sure where the best place to put these thoughts. So I suppose my question would be if someone had already thought along these lines, as I'm getting some research and thoughts together for a fanfic, and wanted to see if there were any holes in my interpretation of this subject:
Belka vs. Mid styles I'm going to approach this from a different angle, and hopefully resolve any contradictions or issues people see. First, let's go back to Ancient Belka; what do we have? A King. Knights. What imagery does this conjure up? Like medieval Europe with their nobility, royalty, honor system, pheasants and knights. Or medieval Japan with their emperor, nobility, Samurai(knights), and an honor system. If Midchilda's history is anything like earths, there were fiefdoms that fought or allied for power and resources. Each kingdom or fiefdom had standing armies. Like most Earth armies, they probably evolved into specialized units. Earth had foot soldiers, cavalry, archers and the support staff (medics, healers, spies, sabotage, craftsmen to make weapons, etc.). What does this sound like? Let me put it into specifics: Signum - mounted cavalry, using speed to outflank opponents (not odd for Samurai to master both bow and sword) Vita - Foot Soldier, knight, charge straight ahead and punch through Shamal - support; the healer, craftsman, etc. that I mentioned above Zalfiras - a bit tougher to put into perspective, but consider that medieval societies did use dogs for guard duty. I can assume ancient belka used magics to create creatures for combat, which would serve and protect alongside the main units. And Hayate? Archer. Or catapult or trebuchet if you prefer. :P In Ancient Belka, I would assume people would specialize into these types, just as they did on Earth. So Yuuno, a learned man of histories, saw Signum and Vita fighting, he came to the same conclusion you or I would, if we saw someone in armor fighting with a sword, or a guy in a kimono swinging a samurai sword in today's time. So, to me, "Ancient Belka Style" merely means a specialization in a type of combat. It's a focus on one. How do I see Midchilda style, then? Let's start turning the clock ahead. Ancient Belka falls, for one reason or another. Some knowledge and specialities is probably lost, such as the cartridge system. In fact, if I were a kingdom back in those days and wanted to take over a neighbor, I'd aim to destroy their ability to make cartridges; without them, my army could cut through theirs like Sig and Vita do to Fate and Nanoha in A's eps 1 and 2. So people with the know-how to make cartridges, were probably a high target for conversion or elimination. Anyway, Belka falls, armies scatter, go back to their hometowns, or get killed. The ones who survive, are those that use magic in new and unique ways, that aren't tied down to a specialty that has a glaring weakness. Also, getting cartridges gets harder, so that particular battle tactic falls out of general use. Magic evolves from this, as scattered people do magical research and testing. Beasts that were probably created by several mages and not tied to their creater's magicforce, eventually become familiars that are. As we evolve into modern midchilda, the need for specialized army units becomes less and less needed as time goes. Some, like Zest, survive into the present, but he's the exception. Today's times demand a well-rounded skillset for agents and enforcers, which are the current end result of magic's evolution. And thus, the modern Mid-childia style came into being. It might go a bit against the "manga canon", but that could be explained by the person explaining how the current identification works in the TSAB: While they have primarily been using Midchildian style for longer ranged attacks(it's generally better to get rid of your enemy before they can get close, guns. vs swords reasoning), they recently began incorporating an upfront melee style which draws upon the ancient Belka for inspiration, ie, a modern Belka style. So all that's left is the magic symbols, the Belka triangle and Midchildian circles. But we also have IS cyborg multi-circles and summoning squares. What I think this refers to is the "base" a spell's power is drawn from. If you've played the later Final Fantasy games, this can be interpreted to the animation around your character, that's different when casting a white, black, or summoning spell. So a character could summon up both a belka triangle and midchildian circle depending on which school of magic they are drawing from. Most stick with one school, though. If you play FFXI Online, there is a single-target sleep spell in both white and black magics. One is called "Sleep" and one is called "Repose." So while someone in Nanoha-verse may be casting similar spells, they still could be from differing schools of magic. At least, this is how my brain currently organizes things. Make sense? Any glaring holes? |
2009-10-09, 19:17 | Link #2079 | ||
Truth Martyr
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2009-10-10, 00:41 | Link #2080 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
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Anyway I like to class things more in terms of combat styles than raw abilities; I think Signum's dominance in that kind of chart makes sense but because of her narrow combat style it's not the advantage it looks like. Personally I class Fate as a skirmisher. With her speed and all-range capability she choose her tactics to suit her opponent and fight wherever they're weakest or just mix up ranged and melee. She's valuable in a formation for intercepting, spoiling, flanking, and such but I generally feel that her raw combat power is a bit below Nanoha and Signum. Nanoha's definitely ranged; she may be able to defend herself adequately at close range but you never see her closing in for the kill like Signum or Fate would. She has a wide range of spells too, but unlike Fate they all support a single tactical doctrine... which is good old-fashioned pin 'em down and blow 'em up. She seems to use active defenses a lot more than other characters, but since she depends on her mobility somewhat less than the others that's not surprising. Signum's combat style is totally singleminded. She has no fast ranged abilities to toss at enemies to 'keep them busy'; she's has to either close with the enemy or transform her weapon to attack, which requires her to commit heavily every step of the way when she's fighting. With hardly any variety in spells she's pretty much just depending on raw skill and strong armor to win fights, and I think this is why she shows an advantage in raw stats. I also think she has a big edge in a fight to the death because of how different her second fight with Zest went. Vita's kind of in the middle; she's still focused on close combat but she hasn't had a chance to show skills on Signum's level. On the other hand she actually has a basic ranged attack, and her weapon forms may look pretty unwieldy but they do put her solidly above Signum in damage potential. Still, she feels a bit limited compared to the other three to me.
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