Romance in Code Geass (Take 2)

[Reiji Tabibito]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Do you have any reason to actually think your pairing will happen? Nice colleague of quotes BTW

Thanks!


And allow me to answer YOUR question with 2 OTHER questions.


Do you have any reason to think it WON'T happen?

-And-

Do you have any reason to think ANOTHER pairing will happen?

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

Thanks!


And allow me to answer YOUR question with 2 OTHER questions.


Do you have any reason to think it WON'T happen?

-And-

Do you have any reason to think ANOTHER pairing will happen?

Yes to all of the above. Now, be so kind as to go first

[DJ_RockmanX]

Oh great. A Cadian. That's all this thread needed.

[Nilie]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Do you have any reason to actually think your pairing will happen? Nice colleague of quotes BTW

Indeed, I mean, I do think Lelouch seems to like Shirley most out of all the girls in his harem but ... I just somehow find the thought of him ending up with Shirley very hard to stomach. To me, his interactions with her seem to be another way of exploring his character, he would have loved a girl like Shirley, a classmate, a friend, a girl who's had a serious crush on him and loved him and who's sacrificed quite a bit for him even though she was hurt by him. One who would have really made him happy, 'cause in the end, he's a freaking NORMAL boy somewhere DEEP DEEP down inside! And Shirley would seem like a more natural/normal choice for a teen boy than a green haired mysterious freak of a witch or a double-life leading half Britannian half Japanese suicidal fanatical monstrously strong red head. Any day.

But despite that, ShirleyxLelouch just would feel sooo WRONG an ending. I dunno why. It's just despicable after all that's happened so far to think that he would go back to the very beginning like it all didn't stain him.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

What did I do Dann?

Oh don't make me bring up all the negatives with Shirely Dann. She couldn't handle all the aspects of Lelouch as Zero even worse then Kallen did for Zero as Lelouch. She's about as relevant to the story as... well there is a reason she, Milley, and Rivalz hang out together in this series >_> It'd take away the meaning of her little spazz during Episode 14, there are far more involved and indepth women in Lelouch's life then Shirely etc... And when has that type of girl been regulated to side character in Tanaguchi's works before?

You mentioned earlier about me being pessimistic enough. That was all.

I know all the negatives. I'm just looking at the possibility that they may not matter in the end since this isn't a romance show where factors like that matter all that much.

I'm sort of speaking of Ai, Aoi, and Mimori. All of those weren't characters he created though and were sort of more important.

I noticed that each girl got something in the first three episodes. C.C. in episode 1 (which was more business than anything though she was using that gentle tone you don't hear to often), Kallen in episode 2 (more dealing with her trust issues and only really confirmed that she loved Zero, not Lelouch), and Shirley in episode 3 (don't really know enough yet, but the date seems to have been primarily for getting rid of his tail and confronting Rollo). Episode 4 probably won't deal with any of them and will be just story and episode 5 will feature all three of them.

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

I suspect that the fanbase for a relationship between Kallen and Lelouch would be smaller if Kallen were merely average looking (Was it necessary to have Kallen's bust size as large as it is? Yes. -_-). Not that I can complain about Kallen's character, as it is quite aesthetically drawn....

This is part of the reason I never took the pairing seriously a while back when the series was airing since I thought they were just trying put the hot girl with the main character. Not that C.C. and Shirley aren't pretty as well though.

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

[SIZE="6"]
CC may be in the lead, but there's no indication whatsoever that Lulu even LIKES CC - whereas with Shirley, we have an admission from Le Douche himself.

QFT. Lulu needs a NORMAL GIRL, DAMMIT!


QFT. If this happened, I could die happy, despite being a...not gonna say.

We have no such admission. I never heard him actually say he loved her. He said she was important as are several other people. The thing I have a problem with is that quite a lot of this pairing seems that it would be based around Lelouch's guilt over what he did. That isn't a good relationship really.

What makes you think that?

Don't say QFT, unless it actually has enough support. I was merely listing possible scenarios and such. Doesn't mean anything is actually going to happen.

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

Thanks!


And allow me to answer YOUR question with 2 OTHER questions.


Do you have any reason to think it WON'T happen?

-And-

Do you have any reason to think ANOTHER pairing will happen?

Yes. She couldn't handle the real Lelouch at all, which is something I would think would be important. I see no indication she could handle the fact that he is Zero when she couldn't do it before.

This has been discussed to death and I am not going to go into it.

Please don't be overzealous. It's incredibly irritating unless you actually contribute something instead of just agreeing with everyone.

[Reiji Tabibito]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Yes to all of the above. Now, be so kind as to go first

Very well...but you've probably heard most of these before.

If I understand the Geass crash course I've taken, there are 3 primary shippings for Lulu:

Lulu/CC

Lulu/Karen

Lulu/Shirley

(Let's NOT go into Yaoi territory, 'kay? 'Kay.)

Now, I am perfectly willing to admit to the fact that for these 3 shippings, Shirley is behind the other two girls in screentime with Lulu.

HOW-ever...

I contend that romantically, Shirley has a LEAD on the other two girls.

First, we have a confession from Lulu himself (ep. 14) that he may like Shirley...and we DEFINITELY know that she likes him. Whereas with the other two girls, we have NO IDEA if they even LIKE him - especially CC, who seems to be the fan favorite right now.

Plus, you saw the leaked part of Ep. 3, yes?

Second, we know that, for the most part, Karen has feelings towards Zero, not Lulu. This is evident by her own behavior in which she is HIGHLY duplicitous towards Zero and Lulu - she treats them, two aspects of the same person, in COMPLETELY opposite ways. Plus, if Lulu/Karen were to happen, it'd be a Dating the Boss scenario - which doesn't end well 9/10 times.

Third, Lulu himself has (indirectly) denied any sort of romantic attraction towards CC. "We are partners." NOT taken out of context, or anything like that. Furthermore, Lulu has (on more than one occasion) expressed exasperation with CC - not exactly a prime way to start a relationship.

Plus, CC is immortal - how much would it suck to be in love with someone who you know will die one day, while you stay young? Even if Lulu feels that way, I do not believe CC will reciprocate, for the simple reason of avoiding heartbreak.


That satisfactory?

Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX

Oh great. A Cadian. That's all this thread needed.

...and just what is THAT supposed to mean?

@ Skyfall's last comment: Ain't that the truth. All we really have is "I'm going to destroy Britannia!"


And then what? Bake a pie?

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Nilie

But despite that, ShirleyxLelouch just would feel sooo WRONG an ending. I dunno why. It's just despicable after all that's happened so far to think that he would go back to the very beginning like it all didn't stain him.

Not at all! Going back to "normal" as if it all didn't stain him? If he does go back to a normal life, its exactly because he is stained ... thats what he is fighting for after all - a better place of a world. If he would go back to normal life and "back" to Shirley it would come together with all his past baggage, him having been responsible for the events where her father lost life, her acknowledging the fact and both of them coming to terms with it. Actually the later is likely to happen one way or another even without romance involved.

He wouldn't go back to the beginning like a clean slate (And neither would Shirley), but he would turn a new page indeed.


What he plans to do after all of this is pretty much up in the air though.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

...and just what is THAT supposed to mean?

I've had run ins with you guys in the recent past (see backlog of the link in my sig). You're an interesting bunch, to say the least. The guys around here are really gonna have fun now.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

I contend that romantically, Shirley has a LEAD on the other two girls.

First, we have a confession from Lulu himself (ep. 14) that he may like Shirley...and we DEFINITELY know that she likes him. Whereas with the other two girls, we have NO IDEA if they even LIKE him - especially CC, who seems to be the fan favorite right now.

Plus, you saw the leaked part of Ep. 3, yes?

Second, we know that, for the most part, Karen has feelings towards Zero, not Lulu. This is evident by her own behavior in which she is HIGHLY duplicitous towards Zero and Lulu - she treats them, two aspects of the same person, in COMPLETELY opposite ways. Plus, if Lulu/Karen were to happen, it'd be a Dating the Boss scenario - which doesn't end well 9/10 times.

Third, Lulu himself has (indirectly) denied any sort of romantic attraction towards CC. "We are partners." NOT taken out of context, or anything like that. Furthermore, Lulu has (on more than one occasion) expressed exasperation with CC - not exactly a prime way to start a relationship.

Plus, CC is immortal - how much would it suck to be in love with someone who you know will die one day, while you stay young? Even if Lulu feels that way, I do not believe CC will reciprocate, for the simple reason of avoiding heartbreak.


That satisfactory?

That's nice and all, but it has been stated that romance was avoided in season 1 so it probably doesn't matter.

He never said anything of the sort. He said she was important to him as are several others in his life.

That could very well mean nothing. To be honest, it seems like the primary motivation for the pairing would be Lelouch's guilt over what he did.

And of course Lelouch is going to deny that he and C.C. are anything but partners as is C.C. in season 1 since they were just that for the most part along with the fact that the two of them lie quite often about how they are really feeling. And exasperation means nothing. Ever heard of Tsundere?

As for the immortal issue, it may not be that big of a problem. She could become mortal somehow, Lelouch could become immortal in some way, or it simply may not matter in the end if they are together. And C.C. could be afraid of her feelings, but that could very well be overcome.

[Majek]

A small island. And abundance of fish and other food. No contact to the world. I'd go for that right now if i was a CG character XD Too bad there won't be a ending like that anytime soon. XD

[Dann of Thursday]

Oh and RT, please use the edit button.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

He never said anything of the sort. He said she was important to him as are several others in his life.

Actually he did. And he didn't mention any others.

Shirley: Did you also lose a family member?
Lelouch: No, a friend. Yes ... probably... a precious one.
Shirley: I see
Lelouch: Loss makes you realize a lot of things, doesn't it ? How much you loved her smile; how you will never laugh or fight together again.
Shirley: You loved her, didn't you?
Lelouch: ... i don't know anymore.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

Very well...but you've probably heard most of these before.

If I understand the Geass crash course I've taken, there are 3 primary shippings for Lulu:

Lulu/CC

Lulu/Karen

Lulu/Shirley

(Let's NOT go into Yaoi territory, 'kay? 'Kay.)

Now, I am perfectly willing to admit to the fact that for these 3 shippings, Shirley is behind the other two girls in screentime with Lulu.

HOW-ever...

I contend that romantically, Shirley has a LEAD on the other two girls.

First, we have a confession from Lulu himself (ep. 14) that he may like Shirley...and we DEFINITELY know that she likes him. Whereas with the other two girls, we have NO IDEA if they even LIKE him - especially CC, who seems to be the fan favorite right now.

Plus, you saw the leaked part of Ep. 3, yes?

Second, we know that, for the most part, Karen has feelings towards Zero, not Lulu. This is evident by her own behavior in which she is HIGHLY duplicitous towards Zero and Lulu - she treats them, two aspects of the same person, in COMPLETELY opposite ways. Plus, if Lulu/Karen were to happen, it'd be a Dating the Boss scenario - which doesn't end well 9/10 times.

Third, Lulu himself has (indirectly) denied any sort of romantic attraction towards CC. "We are partners." NOT taken out of context, or anything like that. Furthermore, Lulu has (on more than one occasion) expressed exasperation with CC - not exactly a prime way to start a relationship.

Plus, CC is immortal - how much would it suck to be in love with someone who you know will die one day, while you stay young? Even if Lulu feels that way, I do not believe CC will reciprocate, for the simple reason of avoiding heartbreak.


That satisfactory?

I've managed to deal with all those aspects myself. I'll even defend Kallen in my own reasoning. Also, screentime is quite important since this is an anime series, it's basically your lifeline in determining your importance. From all other points concerning the actual series, Shirely just isn't that important.

She has more of Lelouch's affection, but isn't that more from regret over what he's done to her? When has he shown genuine reception to Shirely without some sort of emotional burden and lament on his part as well. He's also ambiguous on all of his feelings in regards to the other girls which has been exhibited before, Lelouch just never considers these things, period. That little scene in 14 was just him being him, as indecisive and as noncommittal as ever with ANY other girl.

Yeah I saw it, I also saw how Lelouch used the set the whole thing up in order follow through on his plan. Kind of takes the potency of the moment away don't you think?

Lelouch and Zero are the same person no matter how she slices it, the jacket scene was a good reminder of Lelouch more then anything. You don't think they won't continue off of what they established there do you? I'm pulling for C.C but even I'm not that deluded

It's called tsundre, and we've also seen Lelouch display moments of concern, and affection to C.C as well. Despite there interactions seemingly hostile it's actually the healthiest out of all of the other girls because there quite honest with each other compared to all the other girls precisely because it's a partnership where they both stand on equal grounding with each other, not simply one-sided domination on Lelouch's part.

Who knows what will happen? Despite the immortality Lelouch did say that she was not alone, that he was there for her and if she was a witch he'd become a warlock. Geass is also a strange and mysterious X factor in many respects, the possibilities that come with it may lead to a solution around that debacle of a problem, so you can't write off the pairing until everything is actually resolved by the end.

You didn't say anything I haven't already heard, nor anything I found that was all that convincing. She's got a chance, I admit it, but one verging on the abyss from my point of view.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Actually he did. And he didn't mention any others.

Shirley: Did you also lose a family member?
Lelouch: No, a friend. Yes ... probably... a precious one.
Shirley: I see
Lelouch: Loss makes you realize a lot of things, doesn't it ? How much you loved her smile; how you will never laugh or fight together again.
Shirley: You loved her, didn't you?
Lelouch: ... i don't know anymore.

He wasn't sure. Unless he actually had said "yes," I don't take that as a confession.

In any case, she'll probably be the one in the end even if I find it hard for them to write a convincing scenario for it that wouldn't simply be for the sake of the pairing.

I swear though, they had better not do something like have him promise he'll come back to her and then leave her out except for minor scenes and an ending.

[Reiji Tabibito]

Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX

I've had run ins with you guys in the recent past (see backlog of the link in my sig). You're an interesting bunch, to say the least. The guys around here are really gonna have fun now.

Ahh, so you've met Aaron & Kha...


...just to let you know, I am a Cadian, but I'm far from the greatest of them - they're creators & haxxbusters - I'm just a writer.

And one that won't have access to R2 fansubs, and has ZERO knowledge of Japanese.

"Interesting bunch."

FASCINATING...

<laughs>

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

That's nice and all, but it has been stated that romance was avoided in season 1 so it probably doesn't matter.

True, but it's still fun to think about, which is why this thread exists?

Plus, it keeps the shipping wars from spilling into the whole forum...a special thread had to be created over in the Nanoha section (where I hail from) just to keep the rabid NanoFate & Yuunoha shippers from destroying the whole place.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

He never said anything of the sort. He said she was important to him as are several others in his life.

Then that means one of two things:

1. He loves all of the people who are as important to him as Shirley,

2. He doesn't. They're just really good friends.

Either way, it puts Shirley in a potential romantic spotlight.

Plus, Lulu/Shirley seems a fairly reasonable way to keep her in a primary role throughout R2, since she doesn't have the Rebellion connections that CC and Karen do. What's more, it provides for a couple light-hearted episodes here or there (GEASS? Light-hearted? WHAT AM I THINKING?!).

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

That could very well mean nothing. To be honest, it seems like the primary motivation for the pairing would be Lelouch's guilt over what he did.

Could mean nothing, could mean everything - more than 1 relationship I've known has started from feelings of guilt...

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

And of course Lelouch is going to deny that he and C.C. are anything but partners as is C.C. in season 1 since they were just that for the most part along with the fact that the two of them lie quite often about how they are really feeling. And exasperation means nothing. Ever heard of Tsundere?

Tsundere generally applies to girls - this'd be the rare case of a male Tsundere.

And what proof is there that they're lying about how they feel?

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

As for the immortal issue, it may not be that big of a problem. She could become mortal somehow, Lelouch could become immortal in some way, or it simply may not matter in the end if they are together. And C.C. could be afraid of her feelings, but that could very well be overcome.

...and Shirley could learn to deal with Lulu = Zero.

Trust me, if the creators want it badly enough, it will happen, no matter how unreasonable it may seem.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Oh and RT, please use the edit button.

Done.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

He wasn't sure. Unless he actually had said "yes," I don't take that as a confession.

I do. But that's just 'cause I'm a damned romance junkie, and find it hard to keep myself from going SQUEEE over Lulu/Shirley.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

In any case, she'll probably be the one in the end even if I find it hard for them to write a convincing scenario for it that wouldn't simply be for the sake of the pairing.

If there is one at all - you said yourself they avoided it Season 1, who's to say they won't do it again?

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I swear though, they had better not do something like have him promise he'll come back to her and then leave her out except for minor scenes and an ending.

Yeah. They do that, and they run the risk of alienating ALL the Lulu/Girl shippers - Lulu/CC & Karen for denying their OTP, and Lulu/Shirley for denying the female half screentime

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

Plus, Lulu/Shirley seems a fairly reasonable way to keep her in a primary role throughout R2, since she doesn't have the Rebellion connections that CC and Karen do. What's more, it provides for a couple light-hearted episodes here or there (GEASS? Light-hearted? WHAT AM I THINKING?!).


Tsundere generally applies to girls - this'd be the rare case of a male Tsundere.

And what proof is there that they're lying about how they feel?

...and Shirley could learn to deal with Lulu = Zero.

Trust me, if the creators want it badly enough, it will happen, no matter how unreasonable it may seem.

And that is the problem. This is a mecha show. Romance for this is nothing more than a side thing and to propel a minor character like her just for the sake of romance seems quite odd to me.

Kallen and C.C. are both tsundere.

I don't think they considered one another in a romantic light since, again, romance was kept out of season 1 entirely on purpose. And there have been plenty of signs though others can probably name all of them better than I.

Doubtful to me honestly. She couldn't handle it at all in season 1 and it would be quite the stretch for her to be able to accept the darker aspect of Lelouch.

And again, this isn't a romance show.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

He wasn't sure. Unless he actually had said "yes," I don't take that as a confession.

Oh, i didn't mean that as a confession - the scene was not that What he essentially said was "maybe" ... which doesn't mean anything concrete, but doesn't dismiss the possibility he might have. Coming from Lulu himself, thats probably as good as we can expect

In any case, she'll probably be the one in the end even if I find it hard for them to write a convincing scenario for it that wouldn't simply be for the sake of the pairing.

I swear though, they had better not do something like have him promise he'll come back to her and then leave her out except for minor scenes and an ending.

I can see a way to write a Shirley ending, and i would say its overall a pretty common storytelling device. It also needs separation with CC as a perquisite, which i also find quite likely to happen.

[mussing]
All it takes is some interactions between Shirley and Lelouch through the series (not necessarily a lot), her regaining her memory in some way (which i think is likely to happen), which Lelouch is going to angst over some, Shirley will come to gripes with it and let Lelouch know that she forgives him <insert more mushy speech> and that she would always think of him as Lulu and would be waiting for him <more mush> before Lelouch has to leave to take his fight to the emperor.

At the end of it all CC would have to "die"/leave (if the introduction of emperor's god slaying temple in his bedroom is not foreshadowing i don't know what is) and when Lulu starts blabbering about promising to stay with her she would say he has fulfilled that promise and that now he needs to get his behind back to Japan, as someone is waiting for him there and he owes that person as much"
[/rant]

As i said - its a pretty common storytelling device. And because its common, i can tell the situation has a very good setup for that. Am i expecting such an outcome ? I don't know. I am not the writer of CG, but if asked to conjure a Shirley's ending scenario i can do so much easier than say ... Happy end with CC. *shrug*

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, looking at it like that, that is what is going to happen or something quite like it. No point arguing anymore I guess since that scenario fits well with the story line and C.C. is going to die, which rules her out anyway.

A happy ending with C.C. is impossible anyway I guess. C.C. would definately say that to Lelouch after all she has seen.

Might as well close this thread now.

[Reiji Tabibito]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

And that is the problem. This is a mecha show. Romance for this is nothing more than a side thing and to propel a minor character like her just for the sake of romance seems quite odd to me.

And again, this isn't a romance show.

Hey, I am NOT disagreeing with you - I think any romance is a long-shot here.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Oh, i didn't mean that as a confession - the scene was not that What he essentially said was "maybe" ... which doesn't mean anything concrete, but doesn't dismiss the possibility he might have. Coming from Lulu himself, thats probably as good as we can expect

It's about as good as we can get from MOST guys, who generally have fewer issues than Lulu.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I can see a way to write a Shirley ending, and i would say its overall a pretty common storytelling device. It also needs separation with CC as a perquisite, which i also find quite likely to happen.

[mussing]
All it takes is some interactions between Shirley and Lelouch through the series (not necessarily a lot), her regaining her memory in some way (which i think is likely to happen), which Lelouch is going to angst over some, Shirley will come to gripes with it and let Lelouch know that she forgives him <insert more mushy speech> and that she would always think of him as Lulu and would be waiting for him <more mush> before Lelouch has to leave to take his fight to the emperor.

At the end of it all CC would have to "die"/leave (if the introduction of emperor's god slaying temple in his bedroom is not foreshadowing i don't know what is) and when Lulu starts blabbering about promising to stay with her she would say he has fulfilled that promise and that now he needs to get his behind back to Japan, as someone is waiting for him there and he owes that person as much"
[/rant]

As i said - its a pretty common storytelling device. And because its common, i can tell the situation has a very good setup for that. Am i expecting such an outcome ? I don't know. I am not the writer of CG, but if asked to conjure a Shirley's ending scenario i can do so much easier than say ... Happy end with CC. *shrug*

Agreement here. And the "God slaying Temple" might just be a euphemism...N2 Mines anyone?

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Well, looking at it like that, that is what is going to happen or something quite like it. No point arguing anymore I guess since that scenario fits well with the story line and C.C. is going to die, which rules her out anyway.

CC has survived a LOT. She's been fatally shot TWICE, and burned at the stake, and she's STILL not dead.

My opinion - she's GEASS' version of Kane.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

A happy ending with C.C. is impossible anyway I guess. C.C. would definately say that to Lelouch after all she has seen.

Which is why it's so curious to me why she's the fan favorite for Lulu shipping.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

It doesn't matter anymore since Skyfall's scenario is going to happen. It fits too well with the storyline as a whole to be anything, but the ending scenario. If they make it convincing maybe I can come to like it.

You say that like Skyfall = Taniguchi-sensei.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

What's going to annoy me is that they will probably still have scenes with Lelouch and C.C., when it's clear nothing is going to come out of it in the end. I wish they would just go with Shirley and avoid all other pairings from now till the end.

Hey, that's what I'd like too - but you have to pander to the audience sometimes.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

Which is why it's so curious to me why she's the fan favorite for Lulu shipping.

Because people are idiots. Seriously though, there are actually certain things they could do to make the pairing happen and be happy.

It doesn't matter anymore since Skyfall's scenario is going to happen. It fits too well with the storyline as a whole to be anything, but the ending scenario. If they make it convincing maybe I can come to like it.

What's going to annoy me is that they will probably still have scenes with Lelouch and C.C., when it's clear nothing is going to come out of it in the end. I wish they would just go with Shirley and avoid all other pairings from now till the end.