2009-10-10, 13:13 | Link #2101 | |
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Here's the dictionary definition of melee then: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melee Key excerpt: a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people.
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2009-10-10, 13:19 | Link #2102 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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The wiki is one maintained by fans, however the articles themselves are sourced. The information about the attacks came from the Novel and Megami Magazine, both official sources. Phalanx Shift being ranked higher... Well, someone has to translate that to be certain. I'm not sure I can trust translation sites for details like these. Power should be one factor though. As for why I edited out my comment to agree to disagree, well, I thought it was a tad offensive myself. It was basically me saying 'If you're really going to keep argue even in the face of this evidence, then you're hopeless' which, needless to say, is not the most flattering of agreements. I prefer to keep things civil, hence why I edited it out. Quote:
As for ranged magic users among our main characters... Nanoha, Hayate, Teana, Caro, Lutecia, Agito, Rein, Quattro, Cinque, Otto, Dieci, Wendi, Thoma... even there there's really quite a lot of them. |
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2009-10-10, 13:25 | Link #2103 |
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@Triple_R
Good enough. As I already said, I was tempted to point out what you should have done at the time, as the first argument out of most debater's mouths is 'Wikipedia is not accurate!'. I decided to hold off since it was unlikely the particular article you refferenced would have bias or inaccuracy. I take things on a case by case. But in general, the rule of Wiki is that if you accept them for your arguments, you should accept them from other arguments, or not use them. (Unless you spot a wiki page filled with warnings like [CITATION NEEDED] or other Wikipedia 'questionable article' messages.) It might be prudent, since I spotted a lot of the most common logical fallacies being fired off rapid-pace earlier... that you familiarize yourself with this so your arguments can be more accurate and objective. I pointed out in what appears to be a completely ignored post several issues with your dissection of Nanoha's defensive power and the logical flaws they entailed. |
2009-10-10, 13:33 | Link #2104 | ||
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Now, in fairness, I don't recall if this was a Phalanx Shift vs. a Divine Buster, but if it was... Nanoha's blast eventfully knocked back Fate's blast, IIRC. Do you recall what fight I'm referring to here? Quote:
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2009-10-10, 13:47 | Link #2106 | ||||
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In any event, if we're arguing about Fate vs. Nanoha strictly as it pertains to their Striker S selves, then there's very little whatsoever to go on when it comes to comparing Fate's defensive capabilities to Nanoha's. Quote:
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2009-10-10, 14:02 | Link #2107 |
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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The clash in episode 5 wasn't a Phalanx Shift versus Divine Buster, that was a Thunder Smasher, an A- rank attack, versus a Divine Buster, an A rank attack. Even though it wasn't a full rank stronger, only by a -, Nanoha's Divine Buster was stronger, hence it pushed Fate's Thunder Smasher back.
I should also note that, again, Fate won that fight because she dodged. Launching upwards and making use of the opening it created. And no, I do not think I am taking a wrong stance. As our debate has shown, feats are subjective. Appraisals of rank are not. That Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack is a canonical fact. That Divine Buster is an A rank attack is a canonical fact. Only with these appraisals do the feats become objective, as we now know which attack is the stronger one, and they show the very opposite of what you claim. Last edited by Keroko; 2009-10-10 at 15:18. |
2009-10-10, 14:20 | Link #2108 | |||||
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She was pushing herself before she even got to that, already bleeding from stress injuries and gritting it off. Exhausted enough that once they all ESCAPED the cradle, after fighting non-stop for three hours... they passed out in the Helicopter on the ride back. You don't get that tired from firing the 5X starlight breaker alone. Quote:
It also was not his intention to kill her right on the spot. Vivio, in her Quattro induced madness, had every intent of turning Nanoha into meat paste amid her derranged screams of. 'YOU AREN'T MY MAMA! GIVE BACK MY MAMA!' One should also point out, that at that instance, Jail had blindsided her with odd-angle attacks, and never went through a barrier like the way Vivio did pounding on Nanoha. Your context and scale is all inaccurate. As such: Looking at the way you're structuring your counter arguments, these are all Straw Man arguments I've responded to. |
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2009-10-10, 14:54 | Link #2110 |
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I don't even REMEMBER what our last argument was about... Just that you got into one of your turtle shell mode funks in the middle of it.
Though, you provide me with a gap to provide a good followup here. In essence, what you're doing Triple_R... is if I may exaggerate your argument to an extreme level here... claiming that Nanoha's defenses aren't impressive after she fails to protect against a nuclear missile attack, while Fate's defenses are strong after she successfully protects herself against a butterfly tickle. As I can point out with that extreme example, the flaw is that all attacks are not created equal, and that is the mistake you keep making. |
2009-10-10, 15:09 | Link #2111 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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It was that teleport grenade you created. It put me into 'don't use haxx' mode and led me to making downright ridiculous arguments to try and disprove its possibility, while all I really had to do was say 'I don't like this.'
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2009-10-10, 15:29 | Link #2112 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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That's not what I asked you, Keroko.
I specifically asked you if you have seriously considered that your approach to feats vs. appraisals is valid or not. I really don't get the sense that you've considered my arguments at all on that particular issue. Frankly, that bothers me much more than the debate over the defensive capability of Fate vs. Nanoha. It is a very wrong-headed approach to feats vs. appraisals, imo. AdmiralTigerclaw, it should be noted, is debating feats with me. Quote:
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There are definitive statements that can be said about feats with out any appraisals whatsoever. Quote:
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So... Fate's strength/staff durability (pre-cartridge upgrade) can now be compared to Nanoha's shield strength (also pre-cartridge upgrade), since both were tested against Vita's blows. And if Fate's strength/Bardiche durability is collectively on par with Nanoha's shields (both pre-cartridge upgrade), and if Fate sometimes decides to use shields instead of staff deflects, and if Fate isn't a stupid fighter (which nobody here appears to be arguing otherwise)... then what does that say about the strength of Fate's magical shields by extension? Quote:
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You're saying that I'm "narrowing the context down to direct interpretation". Well, in my opinion, you're doing the exact same thing, sir. Quote:
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If anything is a straw man argument, it's this... Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-10-10 at 16:07. |
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2009-10-10, 15:48 | Link #2113 |
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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I have considered it, yes. In fact, I even explained to you why I consider my stance to be the most objective one. As I explained to you in the PM you send me, appraisals of ranks through booklets are designed to inform you of the status and power levels. That's the very reason they were created.
Feats, however, are created to look cool. For example, you claimed Nanoha's Divine Buster, an A-rank attack, is more powerful than Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, a AAA-rank attack, because you think it is more powerful. The sheer fact that you don't know this for certain and merely go by what you think is the right answer makes the source you're using subjective. Meanwhile, the novel blatantly says "Fate's attack was more powerful." No ifs and buts. It blatantly states the difference in power, with no 'I thinks' about it. Objective sources of information are sources not muddled by opinions. Your evaluation of Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is an opinion, and therefore subjective. Your method if arguing is basically saying "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful. Anything that says otherwise is wrong." It is you who is unable to provide any proof to support your claims, and instead merely go by what you yourself think what is right, ignoring any and all sources of information that state the opposite. There is nothing about the season 1 fight that proves Divine Buster is stronger than Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, and yet you continuously claim it is as if it is a fact. This is not discussing a topic, this presenting your opinion as fact and claiming everyone that does not conform to your opinion is wrong. |
2009-10-10, 16:03 | Link #2114 | ||||||||
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Thank you for answering my question.
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You see, Keroko, by the same token... it could be argued that Fate's Phalanx Shift also did not live up to its ranking. Quote:
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Are you really prepared to think that Vita's regular attacks BIG TIME trump Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift BIG TIME trump Nanoha's Divine Buster? If so, why was Vita impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster? Quote:
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2009-10-10, 16:36 | Link #2115 | |||
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That aside, there is also the point that "most dangerous man ever" is a much more vague judgment than "attack X is more powerful than attack Y." Quote:
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2009-10-10, 16:48 | Link #2116 | |||||||||||||||
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The second part you must note is that is the ONLY time she is in contact with Vita were deflections, not blocks or shielding. When Vita threw the Swallow Flier up and attacked using that. Fate fired her Arc Saber attack and went evasive. While Fate was Dodging, the fliers, Vita tanked the Saber, then Arf attacked with a barrier break on Vita. Who responded with a hammer strike that repelled Arf. While Vita was distracted, Fate used a delayed dodge move to cause all four Swallow Flier attacks to collide with each other at the last second before pressing a blitz on Vita, who barely dodged with horse speed. Arf then returned to the fray by trying to grab her with a bind that dispersed Horse Speed. Vita, distracted again, was blitzed. She blocked fate's blow and they got forced into the afore mentioned shoving match. Again, the shafts pushing on each other are no clear indication of true power. After a brief cut to the bridge bunnies for the tense pause, we cut back to a wide shot showing two exhanges. One obviously a deflection from fate, as she the rather easily followed scyth arcs up and over into its own strike. Vita blocks this and pushes Fate back. Fate is then followed in with a close cemera view showing her to be dropping back. When Vita goes for the next overhead, Arf snaggs her, and that fight is over. Fate never fights Vita like this again. Signum makes her Dynamic Entry and stomps her. Quote:
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Unless of course, they mask their exhaustion. This occures when you have the Badass (Nanoha) fighting the epic battle, and hiding her true fatigue. To prevent their opponent seeing a weak front. We know she's doing this after she favors her hand, Raising Heart asks about it, and she does the whole teeth gritting I mentioned. Which is (since I just double checked), immediately post the use of Blaster One to bust up Deici. It should be noted that the first fight with Vita in A's, nanoha was not exhausted, she was barely concious from having the ever loving SMEG smashed out of her. Quote:
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The context of the fight is that Nanoha is in a three hour long pitched battle in the middile of an environment that's completely hostile to her, and then fighting a superpowered angry 'Kaiser Vivio' at the end, while driving herself beyond her limits even before she gets there. Her blaster system is an overdrive. It was activated and used before she made it to the throne room, implying that she was already at her present limit. Quote:
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And if his base had that kind of power, he wouldn't need the Relic Battleship. Connect the dots. Quote:
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That is taking the argument, distorting it, and attacking that distorted argument. That is the DEFINITION of a straw man argument. Quote:
I could claim that your arguments are inherently flawed because you have a Bias to Fate, which results in a conflict of interest in terms of straight analysis, and playing Fate up more than she is. However, In doing so, I must disassemble your arguments as well, or I fall under the Circumstantial Ad Hominem Fallacy. Since I have done just that, I feel I am free to call you on your Bias. Your arguments are taking your Bias with Fate and our arguments against her defense are offensive in the light of that bias. Fate being a fragile speedster is not an offensive statement. She is FAR faster than Nanoha or anyone when she applies the speed. Just as Nanoha's ability to tank attacks is FAR better than hers. It balances out quite nicely. Personally, I love Fate being the Supersonic speedster with the love for skimpy clothes and sports cars. Especially when I can apply liberal use of Sonic Booms to her actions. (Why doesn't this forum have a Dr. Evil smily?) *EDIT: Accidently glossed over a few points in all my typing... went back and filled those empty points in. EDIT 2: I freakin LOVE Sonic Booms! Last edited by AdmiralTigerclaw; 2009-10-10 at 17:11. |
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2009-10-10, 17:22 | Link #2117 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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See, Triple, once again you go and claim things without evidence to back them up. "It could be argued that" already makes the very argument that you use a theory. And without any proof to back up this theory, this makes it subjective, and it loses against the objective information. You have no proof that Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift was 'not living up to its rank.' Therefore, unless such proof is found there is no reason to even remotely consider that it did.
Here is what we can objectively gain from the feats in that fight: Fate placed a bind on Nanoha and fired her most powerful attack, which Nanoha blocked. Nanoha, now free from her bind, replies in kind with her regular attack, which Fate barely blocks, and finishes it off with a Starlight Breaker. That is all we can objectively get from the fight. Anything beyond that, saying which attack is stronger, becomes a matter of "which attack do I think looked stronger?" and this becomes a matter of opinion. When something becomes a matter of opinion, it becomes subjective. And that is where the background powerlevels come in. These things are designed to tell us just that: How strong was each attack? This information is not a matter of opinion, it is a source of information designed to answer our questions, an objective information source. As for Vita, Vita was never impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, she was impressed by Nanoha's Nanoha's Divine Buster Extension, fired at her in episode 10, which is an AAA+ ranked attack. Darned right she'd be impressed by that. Again, your source is not objective if all we have to go on is your opinion. You claim Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift did not live up to its rank. I claim it does. Which of us is right? Without any form of explanation, we could argue this to infinity, because we would be arguing opinions. That is why your method of arguing is "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful, and anything that says otherwise is wrong." That is exactly what you are saying. Everyone else is wrong, and you are right. Signum and Fate both agree Sonic Form has no armor? They're lying. Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack? It didn't live up. You keep presenting your opinions and subjective views of the situation as if they are facts, and every single time you are asked for proof, you refuse to provide it. Last edited by Keroko; 2009-10-10 at 17:39. |
2009-10-10, 18:07 | Link #2118 |
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
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@_@ my eyes are spinning
I'm not backlog breaking this crap. I am making a comment tho. Fate is right handed, Nanoha is left handed. Nanoha wears white, fate wears black. They are compliments. One is long range, the other is close range. One is agile, the other is not. It is cannonical that they are complimentary. If they can both tank the same exact blows of the same power level (a high one) then they are not complimenting each other and the intention becomes flawed. I'm all for flaws, but busting this cannonical complimentary setup just to say 'oooooh my fav character is buffer than that one is' so to speak, is missing the point of the series.
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