2011-01-09, 22:00 | Link #21421 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 29
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Geez, even if I suck at Japanese Kanji, I still want EP8 O_O
For one of those questions that weren't answered, I read somewhere that since Erika didn't know Kanon and Shannon were the same person, the closed room she created is destroyed, somehow allowing Beato's thing to work. It was presumed Battler planned his Logic Error from the very beginning to get Beato's memory back. (o_o? Alright, I confess, I got that off Umineko Wiki, please don't kill me!!!!) ANYWHO, I don't know why Ryukishi insists on beating around the bush over the true answers such as the existence of magic and Rokkenjima Prime. I know the MMO analogy is pretty much the same but come on, we've spent *counts* er...3, 4 years, I think---Trying to solve the mystery (I know it's not a mystery, you guys have stated it a million times, I'm talking mystery as in "WTHISGOINGON?!" thing..) and stating all these theories....it would be fair if we learned the answer and comparing ours with the real one and seeing if we were wrong or not. Just saying. But if Ryu ends up not sharing it, I'll be upset, but I won't rage....I...won't...rage....*takes some happy pills* .....You guys are pretty~^^
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2011-01-09, 22:13 | Link #21422 |
The True Culprit
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Personally, I'd rather have things be ambiguous than getting an answer no one likes.
"So it turns out Battler did it, and everything you ever said was a lie. He never loved Yasu/Beatrice and the guy you came to like is made up. Battler just shot up everyone like an evil asshole because he hates Rudolf. He then became Amakusa and capped Ange's bitchass in the head for more money. Suck on it."
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2011-01-09, 22:17 | Link #21423 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Where you're not.
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You know what this means, right? Spoiler for Dare I say it:
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2011-01-10, 01:44 | Link #21426 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... ... ...can't get fooled again.
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2011-01-10, 04:38 | Link #21432 | |||||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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MMORPG players being satisfied just by the fact that they killed a strong Boss? Have you really played a MMORPG before? That could be true if you just spent the 1-2 hours necessary to kill a particularly strong endgame boss. But if you worked 1-2 years to get an item, it means that you have killed that very boss so many times that it became boring routine, and then the only thing that could make up for that wasted time is the idea that you finally got your reward. Now if we were just talking about the few hours spent in actually reading the novels I would agree with you. But I can't agree with that when I think about the 1-2 years spent on speculating and discussing about this story, especially when Ryuukishi asked us to do so. Quote:
Certainly you can't tell me that this could be reached without any reasoning or without the 1998 perspective. If he was expecting this it means he was expecting that we reasoned even about that part. Then he should have expected that we speculated even on what actually caused that tragic event, and he should have expected that we were expecting an answer. Quote:
I didn't mean to say that there's been a switch for you, or for everyone. But I know that the vast majority believed in an answer. Quote:
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The problem here isn't that I wanted to see my theories confirmed to be happy, I clearly stated that I could be happy even if I saw them all denied, as long as the solution was really well done. The problem here is that there are still huge holes in this story, stuff that doesn't have any plausible explanation or that only have lame unsatisfying explanations. Quote:
Please... don't deny this basic evident and blatant truth. If now you tell me that Ryuukishi wanted us to struggle in order to open this catbox only to tell us in the end that it was useless because the catbox will never open, then I'll have to conclude that Ryuukishi toyed with us, and I'll be very displeased. Quote:
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But he still needs to strive to give the best possible and satisfying explanation in order to please as many readers as possible. There is no point in mentioning an isolated case that is even wrong. The epitaph answer was a clear answer and it was for the most parts a satisfying answer. Yeah I actually I'm not going to say that it was 100% satisfying, there are still some parts that I find kinda unfair, but at least it's an answer that was shown clearly and that makes sense for a good 95%. I can be satisfied with that, as most people are.
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2011-01-10, 04:55 | Link #21433 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-01-10, 04:57 | Link #21434 |
A novice to anime
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nor*Cal, Rokkenjima, Illusionary World
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I've just read through the previous post here and you guys seem very involved with this game. I also just finished going through other forums and talked to my friends from 2chan and here are my thoughts on Umineko:
It's possible that there is an ingenious solution to everything and if you solve the mystery correctly you will definitely know that you've come to the right answer. If you still question your answer then you still have not guessed right. (There are some old Chinese mysteries that don't state the solution, but if the reader duced right he will know he's right by the hided codes provided by the author.) Its possible Ryukishi07 wrote a "Purple Flower" story and the answer is irrelevant and that the main purpose was the entertainment of the story. (edit:I think as some of the other poster said, putting aside the murders this gives us an insight on the touching and loving moments of the family.) It's possible like the graphic novelist, Alan Moore, Ryukishi is simply doing a deconstructionist story on the mystery genre and fiction in general. Much like how Alan Moore deconstructed the superhero genre and ushered in the 1980's comic age of grim, gritty, metaphysical, and thought provoking. It's possible that like the theme of Lovecraft's work, fear of the unknown is the central plot and understanding the answer would drive one insane. "The essence of the Mythos is that the entirety of humanity is insignificant on a cosmic scale. The human world is but a fragile bubble in an infinitely vast and indifferent universe, isolated by great gulfs of both time and space. Though we consider ourselves masters of all creation, as a species our limited perceptions allow us to see only a fraction of the full range of reality... The search for forbidden knowledge drives many, this knowledge proves Promethean in nature either filling the seeker with regret from what they have learned, destroying them psychically, or completely destroying the person who holds the knowledge." If we were to understand the truth we would drive ourselves mad. I guess sort of connected to Lambda's idea of a human or witch becoming a Creator, the present mind would not be able to understand it and thus go into a state of non-existance. Even if you come to the right answer, if you don't truly understand the moral it will not be relevant to the reader. As for the Schrödinger’s Cat Box, as a person who has studied a bit of quantum mechanics I am a bit suprised this was added to a Mystery story (of course it's also fanasty) but I'm glad it's being used outside the academic world. In the end it's just a game. It's for entertainment, if the reader enjoys it, good. If not, then move on. Apparently the lines are tightly drawn on the 2chan and other Umineko forums. But in the end Ryukishi07 does not own the reader anything or any answer. He's worked hard to provide us with fun entertainment. At the same time we the readers don't own him anything. It's the readers that bought the game and make Umineko so popular. In the end both Ryukishi07 and the fans are in a situation were each provides aid to the other yet does not own the other anything. Oh and one of my friends who claims he's close to solving everything claims the extreme form of the Knights and Knave argument is needed to solve the mystery. Here it is: Three gods A, B, and C are called, in no particular order, True, False, and Random. True always speaks truly, False always speaks falsely, but whether Random speaks truly or falsely is a completely random matter. Your task is to determine the identities of A, B, and C by asking three yes-no questions; each question must be put to exactly one god. The gods understand English, but will answer all questions in their own language, in which the words for yes and no are 'da' and 'ja', in some order. You do not know which word means which. In the end I think Umineko is a fun ride, though I still have to wait to play EP8 myself. But I think I will finish with a quote from the Zen poet, Seng-Ts'an. If you want to get the plain truth, Be not concerned with right and wrong. The conflict between right and wrong Is the sickness of the mind.
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Last edited by ClannadDango; 2011-01-10 at 05:17. Reason: adding stuff |
2011-01-10, 05:14 | Link #21435 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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To be honest, the whole thing about the catbox being unable to be opened was never really there until EP6; well, there were Beatrice's words about this not being a mystery, in addition to the whole anti-fantasy, anti-mystery deal. However, the general mood during the first 5 episodes, from my impression, was that we were encouraged to open it and that doing so was the right thing to do. I mean, even by EP3 Beatrice could have ended it when Battler decided to accept her (which is pretty much the "fantasy" end we're supposed to accept in EP8), but she wanted Battler to reach the truth. Then, by the end of EP5 Battler was able to do it - and by EP8 we know his knowledge isn't limited to who Beatrice is, but what happened in the island. So, he reached the core truth in Rokkenjima. He reached it by solving the episodes so far, applying some of the Knox rules. However, now we're being told all we were able to solve was Shaknontrice.
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2011-01-10, 08:56 | Link #21436 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.' Kahlil Gibran "a truth" vs. "the truth" Sometimes meanings are lost in translation. There is only one truth of Rokkenjima prime. Yet the number of forgeries can be infinite.
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2011-01-10, 11:51 | Link #21437 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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2011-01-10, 12:07 | Link #21438 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Oh yes speaking of the catbox, that is another proof of ryukishi's shallowness. The catbox as i recall was used by Schrodinger to REPUDIATE quantum mechanics. Einstein supposedly repudiate with 'GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE'. However ryukishi used this catbox to explain the process of the world...... The cat is either dead OR alive. It cant be both. The cat dead/alive is the result. The result of rokkenjima is CLEAR. Only 1 thing musta happened n this can ONLY be determined by the authors writing (whether we think its satisfactory or not is our right as readers to judge) Ryukishi however uses the catbox to show the process leading to the result which is fundamentally wrong. It shows ryukishi jes digged up terms, read briefly on it n then attempt to use it (to boost his ego that he is very well versed in the many different studies of humanities) to wow his readers. The CAT IS DEAD, as observed with the crater n eva etc. What ryukishi owes us readers is HOW THE CAT DIE and on that yes he can come up with multiple process if he wants BUT he should still give us a definite one and leave the interpretation/judgement to us.
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2011-01-10, 13:26 | Link #21439 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The same way I trusted that Ryuukishi knew better than continuously telling us to find the answer only to tell us in the end that the answer is better off not being known. And to be honest... isn't the very fact that the truth of Rokkenjima was never confirmed that allow people like the witch hunters the dumb goats and Bernkastel to create fake stories of heartless murder and gruesome insanity thus condemning the pieces of Rokkenjima to an eternal cycle of death and pain? I can't see the good side of this catbox being left closed. it only allows malicious people to make their outrageous claims, smearing the names of all the people involved in the tragedy without anyone being able to shut them up for good. Quote:
Well I must say that Ryuukishi never used these logic arguments in the right way. Hempel's raven, devil's proof, catboxes None of them was actually used for the purpose they were originally conceived. Ryuukishi gave his own interpretations, and I'm fine with that, the same way I'm fine with his reinterpretation of the Knox rules. As long as it was made clear... Quote:
Which means: you don't need to leave holes in your story to "deconstruct" a genre.
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2011-01-10, 13:48 | Link #21440 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Has anyone seen a David Lynch movie? Umineko reminds me a little of them as they're some sort of puzzles of mindscrew which I think you can solve (not sure about it though, Lynch never comments much on the movies, unlike Ryukishi). For example, Mulholland Drive has kind of an answer arc at the end. It is a bit ambiguous, but I got the feeling that it gave sense to the happenings in the movie's earlier part. To do that I had to connect the pieces inside my mind. Again, I haven't read EP7-8, but after the example above I don't think giving no absolute answer in Umineko is as bad thing some people make it seem. As others have said, if Ryukishi has skills as a mystery writer, you won't doubt your answer much if it is the correct one. The theme of Endless was introduced very early, after all. Though I'm not sure if I'll be okay with what the fanfic writers will be producing...
I also speculated about an Umineko Kai a few pages back. I considered Tsubasa as the Rei of Umineko when it was announced, but there is no limit to how many extra discs there can be. It could even be a new series of arcs (When They Cry 5), exploring the episodes in depth, but I think that would be overdoing/milking it. If Ryukishi is planning to give an absolute answer after all, he still has the oppoturnity to do so. But it is hard to say whether Ryukishi is confident enough about his tale that readers are able to make the correct deductions or scared to release his own (crappy?) answer, thus letting the readers have any fitting answer they want. At least I don't regret my time spent on this, though it might be shorter than for some of you (I started with EP4 released). Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-01-10 at 16:31. |
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