2016-11-13, 05:36
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Link #2161 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Holy Terra
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In 40k it would be like this - you have those people who riot and destroy private/government property. So the planetary government decides they have too much unused energy that they simply don't know how to put to good use. Arbites are then sent to arrest everyone and put them on trial, in trial they are all found guilty of destroying various things, they then give them a option to choose their punishment: Manifactorum on nearest Forge World for x years or x years in service of Imperial Guard Regiments. If they refuse both - Mechanics is always in need of good servitors. Either way, it is not a waste in any manner as giving their 41'st millennium situation they cannot afford to waste anything. On the other hand Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence has Interim Coalition of Governance that has no qualms in sending over 200 trillion child soldiers to die in a rather hopeless and pointless war. That is more appropriate comparison. 
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2016-11-13, 07:30
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Link #2162 | |
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Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
In a US election you actually only need 22% of the actual total votes to become president, due to several faults regarding how the electoral college works. So basically you can become president even if the majority of the total electors is against you. In contrast to that, other countries vote for their president directly. So if they win they can actually say that the majority voted for them. In addition to that some states have more electors than they should actually have while others have less than they should have. Trump certainly won the election, whether the election system is actually democratic is a completely different issue though
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2016-11-13, 11:17
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Link #2164 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
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https://twitter.com/oliverdarcy/stat...20534826422272
Ah, I love the smell of potential fascism in the morning. https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/797805792757948416 Except if you're Hillary Clinton of course. Last edited by MCAL; 2016-11-13 at 11:48. |
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2016-11-13, 11:27
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Link #2165 |
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Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Again I hear 'Free demeocratic election' And yet its not democratic.
What people (and by that I mean the entire US, so both Clinton and Trump fans) needs to understand is that their electoral college is a totally screwed up, and moreover obsolete system. If you win 6/10 electors in a state you win all 10 votes in the end. - In other words 40% of all votes are being disregarded entirely. - Sorry but thats not how a democracy works.  As said above in the most extreme case 88% of the entire country's votes can be totally disregarded if you just concentrate on the right states. The electoral ccollege was creates hundreds of years ago when a president couldn't travel as easily as nowadays and actually encourages exactly what it is supposed to avoid: Certain states being disregarded.
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2016-11-13, 11:38
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Link #2166 |
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Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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The election process is democratic, the difference is that in the presidential race, one is voting for President on the State level by electing who the state will send its electors to vote for.
If one looks at this, the only reason that Clinton is ahead in the popular vote is California. Califoria is the largest state and it's 55 electoral votes went to Clinton. roughtly 9 million people voted for the two main candidates in California., with 6 million for Clinton and 3 million for Trump. The weight of California's population, even with 3 million more people voting Clinton over Trump has only pushed Clinton about a half million votes over Trump (before the oversea's and military votes have been counted) If you take California out of the equation (as the succession movement people suggest), the 55 electoral votes get redistributed across the nation, and Trump would get even more electoral votes (since a part of that would go to the next largest state...Texas), and now Clinton is behind by 3 million in the popular vote. In essence, California's massive population is why the vote is as it is on the popular vote side of things presently. Also if we consider proportionally dividing the electoral based on the total national population (rather that state by state), than we have to include the third party votes. This would have both Clinton and Trump under 260 votes each and force the decision to be with the new Congress in January. The Libertarians would get 16 electoral votes roughly, with the Green party getting I guess 5 votes. Even state by state some of the third parties would totally change the dynamic and force the choice to be with the new Congress. Utah would be silly even with only 6 votes. Trump would get 3 votes, Clinton would get 2, and McMullin would get 1. In California, Clinton would get 34 of the 55 votes. Trump 18, Johnson would get 2, and Stein would get 1.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2016-11-13 at 11:58. |
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2016-11-13, 11:52
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Link #2167 | |
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Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Stop watching Alex Jones for God's sake... Oh thats right Trump came on his show while running for potus...
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2016-11-13, 12:03
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Link #2168 | |
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Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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"Common sense" in particular seems to depend on point of view, as I see the same thing said about "liberals" lacking common sense as I do about the right wing lacking common sense. Maybe it isn't what people are thinking about in not common sense at all.
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2016-11-13, 12:24
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Link #2169 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...residency.html And all she did was just express hope...apparently that's not acceptable... 
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2016-11-13, 12:31
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Link #2170 |
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Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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@Ithekro
Surely you don't believe that these nation wide protests are a conspiracy regardless of the things the elected candidate said and did during his campaign? There is always a conspiracy lingering in the imagination of people of the far right, and Alex Jones is of course the standard bearer of conspiracies. Had Trump lost the election he would have been chanting that the election was rigged. In psychology, we call this thought process projection. Generally most people can't see beyond their belief systems, whatever they might be, and this form of perception has a impact on our communication as well; the individual who usually talks about how others are envious of him is usually an envious person himself. Therefore, you can rest assured that Mr Trump will be brewing some conspiracies of his own to undermine his opponents. This is the reason why Trump appears(Hopefully we will all be proven wrong once he takes office and become a much more progressive candidate) to be a dangerous individual with the shades of a dictator and authoritarian ala Kim Jong-um. Edit: I mean come on look at his ridiculous picture and then judge for yourselves 
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Last edited by Sugetsu; 2016-11-13 at 12:56. |
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2016-11-13, 12:34
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Link #2171 | |
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RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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2016-11-13, 12:51
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Link #2172 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Quote:
 Case in point, these two both gladly slaughtered millions in the pursuit of power and were absolute rulers. |
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2016-11-13, 13:10
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Link #2173 | |
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Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
Sorry but its no democracy if, in the worst case, 78% of the population that is entitled to vote is effectively disregarded- and note that is already assuming that all electors of the states you need to use this hole actually voted for the winner. In a proper democracy each one of the voters would be able to voice their opinion on it by themselves and not through representatives. i.e if you have 7.2M people entitled to vote (fictive number) then you have 7.2 total votes assuming all of them actually use their right. In other words if 51% of those people want trump as president then it was actually a democratic choice. In contrast to : of those 7.2 Million, 2 Million live in Texas (again fictive numbers) and if 1.1M of them want to vote for hillary the other 900'000 also voted for her, even if they they actually wanted to voted for trump. This also still ignores that the electors can still pick whoever they want, as not all states have laws in that regard, and in most there is just a relatively small fine. A system of representative voting just isn't something democratic era where information flows the moment it comes out and counting the votes of each person is actually really easy. The electoral college might have been legit democracy back in the early days of the US, but definitely no longer is - no matter who becomes president in the end. The fact that 22% (if even) of the population(actually of the electors, which makes it even worse) can in theory dictate 78% who they want as president, regardless of who they actually wanted, makes it not a proper democratic system.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2016-11-13 at 14:29. |
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2016-11-13, 13:20
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Link #2174 | ||
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大佐
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Quote:
Quote:
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2016-11-13, 13:28
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Link #2175 |
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Provoker
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dreamland
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There is no perfect system for selecting the president. It has been like this for ages. Counting votes, using representatives...Everything can be used for selecting the desirable candidate for a certain party.
For example in some countries, despite having direct voting, higher-ups completely ignore the result and can set any % value they want. Basically there won't be any case when all the parties are satisfied with the result.
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2016-11-13, 13:42
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Link #2176 |
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RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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French Fifth Republic have no problem with their direct universal suffrage in 2 rounds. And still manage between 75-80% of voters showing up.
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2016-11-13, 13:47
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Link #2177 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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It's not direct democracy, but almost nobody in the world has that. Certainly, the US is much too large and heterogeneous for things to work as they did in ancient Athens.
I don't support direct democracy, except as a supplement to give the people a nuclear option in case their government becomes defunct. Larger modern states require a system of representation, as well as unelected officials+experts to run them. I think it is also reasonable to have votes weighed differently, though whether the electoral college is the optimal way to do that, I don't know. My go-to pro-Trump guy talked about it on youtube.
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2016-11-13, 14:16
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Link #2178 | |
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Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Quote:
Class divide on that scale leads to wars, and we don't want that. That is why the electoral college still exists. It reduces the cultural divide by taking a majority of a larger region for a state's votes rather than leave it up to the whole of the nation, thus giving not only each state its own voice, but also keeps the culture divide localized rather than nation wide and so far making it so that close calls on the popular vote front are not decided only by who voted the most, but having a check on the majority to be sure it is the majority. It has worked as intended up to now even with 5 elections decide by the electoral college rather than the popular vote. The exception being 1824 when it was decide by Congress due to no one winning the Electoral Votes either as it was a three or four way race. 1876 was extremely close and there were compromises that followed. 1888 was due to a major shift in the politics of two states between elections. 2000 was due to serious voting problems in Florida. 2016 seems to be more a disconnect between the media and the voters more than anything else. It should be noted that at the time the vote was called (around midnight on the west coast), when it was clear that Trump had won and Clinton lost, Trump was ahead in the popular vote by a million votes. It has only been after the election was called that the popular vote counting has shifted the popular vote results, but not the electoral votes. Also it should be noted that not all the votes have been counted yet I believe. The overseas votes and military votes traditionally go to the Republicans, but not always, so it is possible that Trump may win the popular vote by a tiny margin once everything is counted.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2016-11-13 at 14:29. |
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2016-11-13, 14:21
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Link #2179 | ||
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Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
What you mean is that decisions such as declaring new laws aren't done through direct democracy but through representation - owever in those cases the parties still get a number of all votes on matters that mirror the population's desire for them during the election. The only direct democracy I can think of in that regard is switzerland. But again, the indirect thing about most democracies is the way they decide on particular matters such as laws, not how the states leader is chosen. Quote:
Uhm no its not - I'll have to find the video again. - but there is a youtube video prettty much explaining why it doesn't work at all. - this is also being mirroed by the 22% thing I already mentined earlier. Edit: https://www.youtube.com/embed/7wC42HgLA4k Edit2: it gets even funnier when you watch the one following where he explains what happens if the college is tied.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2016-11-13 at 14:33. |
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2016-11-13, 14:32
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Link #2180 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
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That aside, I'm angry at facebook, reddit and other social medias for declaring they had no influence on the election result, when they utter lack of moderation created echo chambers that insulated right-minded people from reality. Case in point, the "The_Donald" subreddit, controlled by fascist moderators who will immediately ban anyone who doesn't agree with their conspiracy theories. |
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