StarCraft 2

[Kaioshin Sama]

Wasn't the Ultralisk kind of crappy even in the original Starcraft?

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Wasn't the Ultralisk kind of crappy even in the original Starcraft?

Pretty much. It was the cracklings and whatever else behind the Ultras that did the damage.

[ddwkc]

Originally Posted by cors8

Pretty much. It was the cracklings and whatever else behind the Ultras that did the damage.

They weren't crappy in BW (at least not even near the level of the new Ultra). Ultra had a well defined role that worked well enough. They tanked the damage well enough for the cracklings and also did enough chaos to enemy lines if they could flank them. Ultras in BW with proper micro didn't get stuck as much like in SC2. Also you could transition safely to Ultra if you had map control. In SC2 you can't transition to Ultra safely even with map control. You become very vulnerable during the transition time.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Wasn't the Ultralisk kind of crappy even in the original Starcraft?

Dark Swarm?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by felix

Dark Swarm?

You can fit more zerglings and Hydralisks under a single dark swarm and with the Adrenaline boost and grooved spines upgrade that's far more damage then Ultralisks are going to be doing. Besides wasn't the whole point of the Ultralisk more in soaking up damage then in being an effective attacker?

[ddwkc]

Yeah, Dark Swarm also. However, you could go for fast Ultras without DS in BW occasionally.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Wasn't the Ultralisk kind of crappy even in the original Starcraft?

No way. Ultra/ling spelt doom from most Protoss in sc1; and was a staple of ZvT because ultralisks rocked against infantry.

They didn't do that much damage, but they just absorbed so much damage, the cracklings could do very well.

[Archon_Wing]

http://www.mediafire.com/?wjznnjzyydm

Alright, I created a map with ultras vs several matchups in diffrent parts of the map. Simply attack move your ultralisk into the enemy. Everything is fully upgraded, but I'm not familiar with the map editor so there might be problems.

To run the map, just open the map editor (in your sc2 folder). Open my map file; then hit file---> test

Results (no micro besides an attack move command)

Ultralisk vs 4 marauders (400/100)-- Ultralisk wins with 73 health left. Terrible. Throw in stim or another marauder, and ultralisks wouldn't stand a chance considering cost) Gas is typically the bottleneck here.

Ultralisk vs 5 stalkers(625/250)-- Ultralisk wins with 47 health (should have used 4 stalkers, consiering costs maybe even 3, but it shows that ultralisks do extremely well against stalkers.

Ultralisk vs Thor (300/200)- Thor wins with 40 health left. About even fight.

Ultralisk vs Immortal (250/100)- Immortal wins with 155 health left

Ultralisk vs 2 siege tanks (300/250)-- Ultralisk wins with 147 health left. Not bad.

So it looks like ultralisks are really good against stalkers, good against tanks, ok against thors, still horrible against marauders and immortals. What's worse is that any kind of micro benefits the other units more than it can an ultralisk. Marauders can use stims, thors have their cannons, tanks can unsiege.

You guys can test mass battles to see if the splash damage helps, but indeed the ultralisk as an anti-armor unit looks underwhelming to me. Not to mention ranged units are gonna rain down on the ultras once numbers increase. The deal breaker is of course, the ultralisk is way up on the tech tree; also those 2 upgrades to a while to get as well.

[gummybear]

this is why I said SC2 is like a gang rape victum where the rapists were using sandpaper condoms. Everything make much more sense back in SC1, where you hit something you will make damage; now if you hit something, HOLD ON, is it a A or B or C if not then you need to go fill out the ABC form before doing anything else. Seriously, I did wish SC2 is just a graphic upgrade then this shit.

[Archon_Wing]

http://sc2.nibbits.com/maps/project/74846/unit-tester

A much better way of testing stuff

[ddwkc]

I guess Ultra is now a lategame reaper. You just doom drop (or nydus) them with a Infestor and try to do as much damage as possible in buildings. I believe a frenzied Ultra can destroy a pylon in a couple of seconds.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

No way. Ultra/ling spelt doom from most Protoss in sc1; and was a staple of ZvT because ultralisks rocked against infantry.

They didn't do that much damage, but they just absorbed so much damage, the cracklings could do very well.

Yeah that's what I was getting at, they're like a tank character is in an MMO. I hadn't had a chance to look at all the new unit stats, but didn't the Ultralisk end up having 50 more HP compared to Brood War?

Now that I'm looking it seems like the Zealot hasn't changed much (still 8x2 attack per second) so it seems like you'd be getting about the same result from the Ultralisk against 3 of them in brood war anyway. Besides who sends single Ultralisks out unescorted anyway?

I also found out when finally looking at the new units that Orguss is in the game.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Yeah that's what I was getting at, they're like a tank character is in an MMO. I hadn't had a chance to look at all the new unit stats, but didn't the Ultralisk end up having 50 more HP compared to Brood War?

Now that I'm looking it seems like the Zealot hasn't changed much (still 8x2 attack per second) so it seems like you'd be getting about the same result from the Ultralisk against 3 of them in brood war anyway. Besides who sends single Ultralisks out unescorted anyway?

2 problems:

The ultralisk costs more: 300/200/6 supply as opposed to (200/200/4 supply); zealots cost the same. So you're already getting less bang for your buck.

Zealots in sc2 seem to attack faster as well.

The presence of units like marauders and immortals causes stat inflation.
These units do so much damage, that the ultra's stats cannot keep it up. It may be that other units are too strong rather than the ultralisk is too weak. Everything does so much fucking damage (and gets +armored bonus) that 450 hp means very little. Now that I mention it, buildings die ridiculously fast too.

Certainly ultra only wasn't that great in sc1; but they could put serious hurt into most t/p armies even by themselves

It's not really that a unit is weak more than it lacks a place in the army. Ultralisks were very useful in sc1 because of:

1.) They were an effective way to macro with the zerg's larva. Pumping out ultralisks was a great way of using excess resources and especially larva. Instead of pumping out 48 zerglings from 24 larva, you could come up with 24 ultralisks

It's just the way zerg works Now in sc2, zerg typically have so much more larva with the queen's spawn larva ability there's much less need to worry about this.

2.) They were strong against "standard" army compositions. Terrans typically mass infantry to get through most of the game. Ultralisks just plowed through infantry. Basically, the ultralisk was a natural solution to what the opponent was typically building all game.

In Starcraft II, the Ultralisk completely sucks against a terran bio army. They aren't that great vs marines anymore, and aren't good against marauders at all. Therefore, there's really just less of an urge to get them, especially considering the alternative-- brood lords. There's no point in getting something that dies so easily to something the enemy's gonna mass anyways. They fail at being tanks.

3.) They were also strong against the deadliest things Protoss and Terran could throw at the. Psi storm in starcraft 1 was devastating, but ultralisks largely shoved them off. Irradiate was the worst thing terrans could do to zerg, but ultralisks are one of the few units to be able to survive that. Also, an irradiated ultralisk could backfire on the Terran if it got near the terran's bio units.

In Sc2, Ultralisks would still be good vs storm, but so are Roaches...
In other words, the ultralisk in Sc2 doesn't suck solely because of its stats, but because it takes on a role that just isn't that important or other units can do it better.

In Starcraft 1, Zerg usually got hive pretty fast, because ultralisks and defilers just complimented each other very well. Every competent zerg's desire was to get the 3 gases needed to get hive tech.

In Starcraft 2, Brood Lords just overshadow Ultralisks too heavily. Why would you get something that does ok against armored when you can get something that just wipes them out?

So the Ultralisk does fine vs Thors and Tanks. Well, the Brood Lord destroys them; and with all the broodlings the Brood Lord shoots out, it ends up being a better tank too!
TL;DR Can't tank, expensive, too much anti armor damage; other stuff is better

[Edgewalker]

3 Zealots Vs 1 Ultralisk

Ultralisk dies, 2 Zealots left.

If that doesn't show how bad the Ultra is in SC2, I don't know what does.

[Eisdrache]

That takes pretty good micro not to mention that the test was so rigged in favour of the zealots. They're pretty much the natural counter to Ultras so yeah zzz. Basically what Fenrir valandri said.

[ZeroForever]

so beta ends this weekend... though it's been crash/lagging so bad since the last patch honestly I haven't been able to even try the changed ultras because other then rush matchs the game will crash before ending.

[Lostdreams]

So, it's not just me that's getting lag?
(The type of lag where I tell a unit to do something, and it does it 3 seconds later type lag)

[FlareKnight]

Well the 3v3 and 4v4 has still been iffy for me with the lag issues. But at least have gotten through the 1v1 games fine. Too bad they are taking that break, but hopefully while the beta is down they can fix up the more serious issues the beta has been having. Though I think things like making the Ultralisk viable will take some more time.

I'm alright with them releasing while figuring out some multi-player issues. Mostly since I've been more looking forward to the single player which should be fine.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Edgewalker

3 Zealots Vs 1 Ultralisk

Ultralisk dies, 2 Zealots left.

If that doesn't show how bad the Ultra is in SC2, I don't know what does.

It's the same thing in SC1. That being said, I'm thinking Ultra's need some help for now.

[RisArk]

It's actually worse in SC2 because all the recent patch changes have been around "Buffing" the use of Ultralisks.