Why are people so against anime?

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Anime is like any other form of visual entertainment: television, plays, movies, musicals, etc.

If you can get someone to at least entertain that idea, then you have made a huge step forward. Put a little thought into what you loan or suggest to someone to watch. Not everyone will like anime (just as not everyone enjoys plays or reality TV shows or whatever) but effort will pay off.

It's a bit different with anime. Also, it is more related to Japan's reputation here in America than anything else, since they have those weird (yet hilarious) game shows among other things that people frown upon. And their language, though it is not as hard as many claim; understanding the symbols' sounds anyway.

I have come close to remembering all of the sounds that the Hiragana symbols make, but I am far from remembering Katakana and ESPECIALLY Kanji. And after all of that comes the hardest part: understanding what these symbols actually mean.

But, yeah. Complicated language, weird game shows, awkward dramas are the common peeves that people throw at Japan. I can sort of agree on the dramas, but the game shows are hilarious; and obviously its anime is fantastic. But, anime is far from being similar to other things that we never bothered embracing. Those things are not frowned upon; rather, they are just irrelevant to many and nothing more. But, if someone simply started advertising it more, chances are people would enjoy it a lot more.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Notshane

But, yeah. Complicated language, weird game shows, awkward dramas are the common peeves that people throw at Japan. I can sort of agree on the dramas, but the game shows are hilarious; and obviously its anime is fantastic. But, anime is far from being similar to other things that we never bothered embracing. Those things are not frowned upon; rather, they are just irrelevant to many and nothing more. But, if someone simply started advertising it more, chances are people would enjoy it a lot more.

Well, honestly, I think people look at something like Hollywood and think "see, it's totally possible to export one country's entertainment culture and make it global!" But how much time and money did that cost over how long of a period of time? It's far more commonplace for people to be drawn to the entertainment created by their own local culture, which was created specifically to appeal to their local sensibilities and tastes. And particularly right now, at least in North America, where the production level on TV dramas is so high, and there's a never-ending supply of well-regarded movies, who in the general population has time for anime? And besides all that, we have to keep in mind that a lot of the anime we like wan't even designed to appeal to mainstream Japanese tastes either, just a small subset that are drawn to the stuff. It'd be quite something to take one culture's niche and expect to strike a chord with the global market's mainstream.

Of course there are anime designed to appeal more to Japan's mainstream audience, but they're arguably even less likely to strike a chord with the foreign audience. Sometimes it's easier to find some global commonality within a niche. Disney/Hollywood is basically the only exception where an animated movie like Frozen, for example, can get acclaim and popularity worldwide by cleverly playing to a certain sensibility based on decades of prior exposure to the basic model. The amount of hits from other cultures that end up making it big on the global stage are fairly few and far between. As you say, they're usually just irrelevant outside of their intended audience and a few "geeks" that keep up with foreign entertainment (the proverbial art house).

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, honestly, I think people look at something like Hollywood and think "see, it's totally possible to export one country's entertainment culture and make it global!" But how much time and money did that cost over how long of a period of time? It's far more commonplace for people to be drawn to the entertainment created by their own local culture, which was created specifically to appeal to their local sensibilities and tastes. And particularly right now, at least in North America, where the production level on TV dramas is so high, and there's a never-ending supply of well-regarded movies, who in the general population has time for anime? And besides all that, we have to keep in mind that a lot of the anime we like wan't even designed to appeal to mainstream Japanese tastes either, just a small subset that are drawn to the stuff. It'd be quite something to take one culture's niche and expect to strike a chord with the global market's mainstream.

Of course there are anime designed to appeal more to Japan's mainstream audience, but they're arguably even less likely to strike a chord with the foreign audience. Sometimes it's easier to find some global commonality within a niche. Disney/Hollywood is basically the only exception where an animated movie like Frozen, for example, can get acclaim and popularity worldwide by cleverly playing to a certain sensibility based on decades of prior exposure to the basic model. The amount of hits from other cultures that end up making it big on the global stage are fairly few and far between. As you say, they're usually just irrelevant outside of their intended audience and a few "geeks" that keep up with foreign entertainment (the proverbial art house).

In Japan, well there are lots of things to be frowned upon by many western audiences, the west has to thank them for their video games; for it was a Japanese company that saved them. I mean, in due time, we might have gotten video games here eventually, but we definitely got them here a lot earlier thanks to Japan.

Also take into account their sheer effort that they put into making anime. What really opens anime to the more generous viewer is that it has so much effort into its creation; the writing, stories, animation; I surely sound like a broken record by now since I have probably brought this up so many times already, but it is the truth. The passion for anime burns like a relentless flame that never goes out since it seems to get better and better each year. At least, if you know where to look.

I have a very rare mindset. I am able to enjoy every single anime I watch as long as it has a good story; I care not for the genre. If I knew it was an anime that had an overall creepy tone, as long as it had a good story I would be down for it; even if it was a very graphic horror anime. However, not everything I watch always goes by the "you will never forget this" kind of story; I am an even bigger fan of cheesy humor if it flows well enough and my overall favorite genre is random comedy; made famous by a certain anime that the dancing little girl in my avatar is from. It is the only anime that made me happy enough to want to buy it after only watching a few episodes due to how much it made me laugh and is the only anime I own on DVD.

In all of my life in viewing anime, only one anime has truly disappointed me. It had colorful characters, an adequate setting, it even killed the MAIN character at the end of the first season and this carried over to a new season, but it was supernatural so he became a ghost actually. The story itself was so stale and utterly shameful that I had no shred of respect for it after the next season. It had a good start, but a terrible ending mixed with bipolar characters and confusing plot elements. Its only positive was that, like all anime, there was a common bitch character as usual. But, she actually slowly became a better person and one of her monologues was actually very heartwarming.

Basically, anime has enough effort in recent years where it has probably garnered up so many more viewers than any nineties anime could. Granted, well the current decade introduced lots of creepier anime, it also made way for stories that should be seen by more people of this era. It is also perhaps the fact that it is a cartoon trying to be serious that throws people off; rarely in American media are there any serious cartoons ever, as the most well-known ones fall into comedy.

As such, anime will fall into the most common rumors by default. Either all of it is for kids, all of it is creepy, all of it is cartoon porn or lastly, my personal favorite: anime stories are no wear near as deep as American live-action stories are. I do not even watch live-action movies anymore, except with a friend of mine; all of the dramas my other friends show me also never interest me.

The only live-action drama I ever finished to the end was One Tree Hill because that was a true example of someone putting a high production value to GOOD use rather than flashy use, though towards the end of it I got a bit bored since it kicked off a few notable main characters. Just because the production values are high does not necessarily mean it will be a good show, though; most movies today just feel like a repeat of everything I saw a decade ago with a few notable exceptions here and there. This is just one reason why I prefer anime is because every single anime I watch feels like something new. And, despite my phlegmatic nature, I can always find myself laughing on the inside if the comedy is good enough and even cry for real if the scene is sad enough. Not that I am heartless to American shows or anything, but ever since the ones my friend shows me mostly talk about sex and violence, they are not as good as they used to be.

[Goshin]

I remember when I started watching anime in 9th grade. (the DBZ years didn't count). Naturally I had a lot of friends who were Anime enthusiasts. needless to say we weren't the coolest kids in school.
I remember one day when one of my friends was having me listen to some anime ending during computer class when this cute girl walked up to us and asked us what we were listening to. Without any hesitation or shame I answered truthfully, that was when I saw how intensely my friend glared at me (if looks could kill). Apparently I was suppose to lie. he later made a point of reminding me of how much i sounded like a doofus I sounded answering the girl. He wouldn't the last friend who shared and liked to talk about anime with me, then hid the fact to remain "cool"

Anyways my point is that I think sometimes it's the anime fans that put off normal people and not actually Anime itself. If you feel embarrassed about your hobby chances are other people won't think highly of it.

Another issue I think is when Anime gets ported to the US it gets very kiddish. I remember how angry I was Naruto was dubbed. not because I didn't want to share Naruto with the mainstream. it was because anytime I told someone I liked watching Naruto they would think about the silly "believe it" Naruto. and that did not do me any justice. so a lot of people who don't like anime actually referring to the ones they see on American TV.


I've actually gotten lots of people into anime. i just choose carefully which genre to show them first. i remember showing Princess tutu to my little girl cousins in my home country and they really liked it. they even had me translate out loud the subtitles. (they don't speak English). they did not need to appreciate it was a deconstruction of the magical girl genre to like it. nor did i have the urge to explain it to them.

Some boys in the neighborhood I just showed them DBZ. they didn't even want it translated. lol they just liked the action.

Then some animes i keep to myself. I already know they won't like it or understand the references, even if they understood the language for example Gintama.

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by Goshin

Another issue I think is when Anime gets ported to the US it gets very kiddish. I remember how angry I was Naruto was dubbed. not because I didn't want to share Naruto with the mainstream. it was because anytime I told someone I liked watching Naruto they would think about the silly "believe it" Naruto. and that did not do me any justice. so a lot of people who don't like anime actually referring to the ones they see on American TV.

With the exception of Pokémon, 4Kids is mostly to blame for the hatefulness of American dubs :P specifically One Piece, due to 4Kids biggest screw-up of (somehow) winning a case against FUNimation to help themselves to its broadcast which turned out to be a bomb since they screwed themselves over by not first looking at the actual content of the show, but rather its fan base and judging it solely off the first episode; One Piece's most innocent episode. Every other episode after that required HEAVY censorship that is unforgivable.

And do not even get me started on "Mew Mew Power" that is a monstrosity in and of itself, though it did get me interested in the consideration of watching Tokyo Mew Mew due to its intriguing story.

Originally Posted by Goshin

They did not need to appreciate that it was a deconstruction of the magical girl genre to like it nor did i have the urge to explain it to them.

I think Madoka Magica is more deconstruction of that genre than any other anime that tries to do so XD every other Magical Girl anime I see still heavily follows the genre, well that one just kind of tore it to shreds and turned it into an intense action story that is surprisingly very original for its time and garnered up a huge cult following, despite its very short episode run. But in return, it got several movies that still continue the storyline that I have yet to watch.

[Nicaea]

About the dubs: I think it depends on yge kind of shows you are watching. I grew up with watching English DBZ, Cardcaptor Sakura, Gundam Wing, etc. But around my early years of middle school I was watching different kinds of French dubs such as Saiyuki, Captain Tsubasa and Saint Seiya. It was only when I was looking for an episode I had missed that I discovered subs on the Internet.

TL;DR The way voice actors aproach dubbing is crucial in apreciating the show (most of the time english dubs sound as if they're deliberately belittling the work imo).

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

TL;DR

I hope you realize most to all of the replies on here are just as long if not longer than mine.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Notshane

I hope you realize most to all of the replies on here are just as long if not longer than mine.

That's not what TL;DR means in that context, he/she was sumarizing his/her post. Not saying anything about anyone else's post.

Originally Posted by Notshane

I doubt it. Firstly, given anime is usually watched by adults, I imagine most adults grew up with 2D games as well. In fact, 2D to this day still has more innovation than 3D ever will. 3D was this: you saw it, noticed its vastness, moved on. As of this day-and-age, 3D is now nearly as good as real life in terms of graphical power, but by this point what could be said of how creative it is?

With 2D, you are open to ANY art style you choose. Be it crayon, watercolor, markers, digital ink, traditional ink, many styles of 2D exist that I can not even mention to you here; probably hundreds. 3D only comes in a few shapes and forms, such as cel-shaded, regular, perhaps really animated-looking or comic book style and perhaps they can mix up the atmosphere of it a bit at times with background effects. But, in the end, the rut for new styles of 3D will be pretty deep for a while now well 2D is still on top of the horizon of new discoveries.

In my opinion, it is childish to enjoy 3D things more than 2D things. Given the simplicity that lies within 3D, you can understand its style rather quickly. 2D, however, results in you entering a vast world of color, creativity; many things upon your imagination level at times. For video game examples, I have seen some 2D on, say the SEGA Saturn for instance, that still look better and play better than any modern 3D game I have ever seen.

Well it is true that 3D is mostly used to integrate that reality experience such as with Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty and all of that with their realism in being based off thug life and war. But, when it comes to the creative side, things dwindle down quite a bit in the graphical department. They are just trying to mimic real life. Rarely do we even see a 3D game try to go to the fictional side of things, outside zombies, and try to do something like blast the protagonist into space and, as he is getting to a planet, a group of alien pirates shoot him with cow guns or something. Never see any of that, ever.

Now, back to 2D. Some 2D video games I have seen have shown such a significant level of creativity, story and spunk that I have NEVER seen in a 3D game before. In fact, if the art style is detailed enough, I can say 2D can look more realistic than 3D can too; despite it being drawn.

Horror anime, in particular, is still scarier than any horror movie you will ever see in real life. That is because, with a certain drawing aesthetic presented, the animators can truly draw something that could put you in a mental hospital if they are not careful as you are riddled with nightmares for life, well with live-action horror films you are not expected to see too many scary things. That one film, "The Conjuring" was not at all scary to me.

It does not help either that, with some cases, they intentionally draw the scarier scenes more fluidly in order to further frighten the viewer. In fact, I have not seen any horror anime outside Elfen Lied myself; I feel like I would get nightmares over them. It is the only genre of anime that I digress quite frequently due to its nature. Yet, at the same time, this intrigues me quite a lot; the idea of being able to be scared again, since any horror movies here never seem to do the trick. I actually decided to wait until I was older before watching more of it.

With the right amount of storytelling and effort, I suppose 3D could outshine 2D sometimes. But, most of the time, it feels like you are watching reruns. But, I have no clue of what 3D games Japan has made these days; I have seen some that are really good and impress me quite a lot more than anything released here. This, alongside anime, interested me in studying more of their culture. And now, I am currently studying Japanese myself due to how different Japan does things there. It is thanks to them that I chose 2D over 3D as my favorite things to see and play. Of course, I am not completely against 3D at all or am anti-3D, but lately it is not as cool as it was when I was a child.

But, this discussion is not about 2D vs 3D, it is about why anime is frowned upon in other places. I apologize for my significant digression of the topic here.

I honestly have no idea why you are talking about video games. Video game's tradition comes from user interactions with stories coming secondary like pac-man, pong, or mario. Anime's tradition comes from literature which is something that the viewer cannot change and is just a story.

Also, normal people don't care about how malleable 2D is when people don't even use most of the tools available to them. Well duh, there are many different kinds of art styles and crazy imaginative stuff that people can come up with but that isn't going to hit home with most people. dramas like Romeo and Juliet will (which was performed first in theater btw)
If people actually thought 2D is better, there would be no reason that a japanese drama would have such a significantly bigger viewership than anime... but it does.

And i have no idea what kind of horror movies you are talking about but telling me that horror anime is more scary than any horror film is killing my sides. I mean, have you ever seen the production value on horror anime?

[Notshane]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Telling me that horror anime is more scary than any horror film is killing my sides. I mean, have you ever seen the production value on horror anime?

http://youtu.be/E3oSg7bNxSg?t=2m46s

[aohige]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

lol. Of the new shows airing this winter season there's I'm counting 8 airing at 22h-0h, 23 shows airing at 0h-3h after midnight and a whole 4 shows airing during daytime. Don't act like 1am is an unusual anime slot.

Ima, futari no michi 1800
Transformer Adventure 0900 (Sunday)
Funasshy no Funafunafuna Biyori 0800
Omakase Mamitasu 1845
Sails Moon Crystal (upgraded to TV broadcast) 1730
Battle Spirits Burning Soul 1830
Tamagocchi Tamatomo Daishu-GO 1800
Puripara new season 1000
Kyoukai no Rinne 1730
Denpa Kyoshi 1730
Arslan Senki 1700
Baby Step Season 2 1730
Kaitou Joker Season 2 1900
Gintama new series 1800
Future Card Buddy fight 100 0800


And these are just the new series starting this spring, that has time slots announced. (there are plenty more)
And keep in mind long ongoing series are also all daytime, including shows like One Piece, Toriko, Fairy tail, etc.
Not to mention all the immortal decades-long childrens seires like Crayon Shin-chan, Nintama Rantarou, etc.

It's kinda stupid to count a dozen 12 episode series in late night night slot, but not care to count dozen series with over 100 episodes during daytime, ongoing for years. Of COURSE there are more shorter series, because you know, uh, they END.

EDIT: I should also do a passing mention that daytime also sees a ton of reruns of popular older anime.

[itisjustme]

^
1st the long running kiddy daytime shows aren't really the ones discussed on Animesuki or in other western anime forums.

2nd Yes there are more titles in spring than winter jeebus, but I'm still counting 30+ titles airing after midnight this spring already out of those scheduled.

3rd you're totally missing my point, I never said there's no daytime show, I'm saying late time shows are a big chunk of the anime schedule/industry business and shouldn't be treated like an exception.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

^
1st the long running kiddy daytime shows aren't really the ones discussed on Animesuki or in other western anime forums.

And why does that matter?
You mean, "only shows I'm interested matters"?

2nd Yes there are more titles in spring than winter jeebus, but I'm still counting 30+ titles airing after midnight this spring already out of those scheduled.

Of course there are. But in matter of hours airing per day, the difference between amount of airtime for daytime and late night isn't as big as you seem to believe. And you are STILL not accepting that fact that daytime anime tends to run long and over multiple cour, TAKING UP THE SLOT ALREADY so no new anime can fill it.

3rd you're totally missing my point, I never said there's no daytime show, I'm saying late time shows are a big chunk of the anime schedule/industry business and shouldn't be treated like an exception.

No, you said there were four. Which is wrong, and I'm providing proof of why you were wrong. /shrug
You purposely grossly exaggerated in attempt to trivialize daytime focus of anime, which is a terrible way to discuss matters.
I don't disagree with you on the latter half.

[itisjustme]

Originally Posted by aohige

And why does that matter?
You mean, "only shows I'm interested matters"?

I thought this thread was about discrimination against anime in the west. How many people in the west even know about Crayon Shin chan or Sazae chan. :P I remember one dude talking about getting lambasted after reading animesuki that's what I'm talking about.

No, you said there were four. Which is wrong, and I'm providing proof of why you were wrong. /shrug
I don't disagree with you on the latter half.

I said new shows this winter, because it's the only schedule I looked at. You quoted upcoming spring shows.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

I thought this thread was about discrimination against anime in the west. How many people in the west even know about Crayon Shin chan or Sazae chan. :P I remember one dude talking about getting lambasted after reading animesuki that's what I'm talking about.

Then the issue is ignorance of fandom, or selective viewership of fandom, rather than "what actually airs" no?
The problem we should be discussing would be completely different.

I said new shows this winter, because it's the only schedule I looked at. You quoted upcoming spring shows.

2014-2015 Winter?
I really really really don't feel like spending more of my time to research, but I can guarantee you I could prove you wrong.

And you still ignore the more important factor, that daytime shows runs through seasons. Or years. You can't have a new anime show in a time-slot that's already taken by continuing shows.
If you want to continue, I can waste my time when I get home.

[itisjustme]

^2015. I only see Go! princess precure, Doamaiger D, Washimo, and Absolute duo ()

Again yes I know there are long running shows. Again it wasn't my point.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

Again yes I know there are long running shows. Again it wasn't my point.

Well, it is pretty important to putting the statistics in context. Stated the way you did, someone might be led to believe that the vast majority of anime runs in late-night, which simply isn't the case. The amount of new show starts in an off-cycle like Winter isn't really indicative of anything.

The whole thing is based on a misunderstanding anyway. The context for the original comment was someone pointing out that quasi-pornographic content was actually airing in a "TV Show." The reply was that shows that air in late-night aren't really "normal TV shows." But it wasn't trying to imply that this wasn't a normal pattern for anime. It's more to say that a lot of anime is not like "normal TV" -- i.e. it's niche content, not mainstream.

You said:

Originally Posted by itisjustme

Don't act like 1am is an unusual anime slot.

And he never said that to begin with. He was just saying that 1am isn't a slot where normal TV shows air.

[averygamerdude]

I just wanna say that it's sad that anime isn't as mainstream as it used to be. The only anime shows that air on U.S. Television are Pokemon, Digimon, etc. All the other anime shows air at 12 A.M. on Toonami, when everyone's asleep. America has sure gotten more conservative, because they've removed alot of anime off the air many years ago. Now the only way you can watch them is if you go to some obscure site, or skim around on YouTube and hope you get lucky. If only we could make it more mainstream...

[ninjastarforcex]

they arent

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by averygamerdude

I just wanna say that it's sad that anime isn't as mainstream as it used to be. The only anime shows that air on U.S. Television are Pokemon, Digimon, etc. All the other anime shows air at 12 A.M. on Toonami, when everyone's asleep. America has sure gotten more conservative, because they've removed alot of anime off the air many years ago. Now the only way you can watch them is if you go to some obscure site, or skim around on YouTube and hope you get lucky. If only we could make it more mainstream...

You know there's sites like Crunchyroll, ANN, Hulu, Funimation right?

You can also see stuff if you have an iTunes account.


Also, the fact that anime is on at midnight is about as mainstream as it's always been really.

[averygamerdude]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

You know there's sites like Crunchyroll, ANN, Hulu, Funimation right?

You can also see stuff if you have an iTunes account.


Also, the fact that anime is on at midnight is about as mainstream as it's always been really.

Of course I know about Hulu, Crunchyroll, etc. Problem is you've gotta pay for them. U.S.A., Y U SO CONSERVATIVE??