2010-03-12, 13:13 | Link #202 | |||||
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Sorry for the delay, midterms tend to disrupt my ability to make well reasoned posts, so I didn't make them.
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While all esper abilities make break laws like conservation of energy or momentum, all observers in all frames of reference can agree on which law is broken. If not, there's no consistent universe for there to be anyone in. This is the very basis of General Relativity. Quote:
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Again though, having control of entropy may give constant speed and constant temperature effects, but being able to generate a constant speed effect may not guarantee that person to have entropic control abilities. But yes, if Uiharu ups her level, she may start displaying a whole range of super powers. Quote:
This reminds me, I have an interesting theory on how Touma's ability can be made consistent with the problem of "stopping railgun blasts but not accelerator accelerated objects." I should post that some other time. I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things: -Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.) -Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities. Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature. (To spite the author though, I will point out that if the tayaki's maintained at a freshly baked temperature for that long, it's probably dried out and untasty when they eat it.) |
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2010-03-12, 14:11 | Link #203 | |||||||||
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2010-03-12, 14:50 | Link #204 | ||||
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And to the "no, it's not..." thing, well, he'd have to live with the fact that I pointed out one more consistency! (and then he'd not care about it, which makes me sad.) |
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2010-03-12, 15:09 | Link #205 | |||
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2010-03-12, 18:02 | Link #206 | |
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There's no evidence to suggest what half of the stuff you just wrote. Any object accelerator uses his power on doesn't need to transform into any other state of energy or otherwise. Why does the expansion on the universe matter? A bullet he tells to move in the opposite direction to him doesn't transform into some energy any more than a girder he's throwing a Touma. ------------------------ Focusing on the more important: I hope we're not misunderstanding each other on the concept of frame of reference. Are you saying that accelerator defines his frame of reference to be at rest, so that the when the bullet hits him, he can define an opposite vector for that bullet to go? |
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2010-03-12, 18:18 | Link #207 | |
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He can also 'go big' as well. Recently in the light novels he changed the vector of an entire building relative to the rotational center of the earth, causing the entire building to move 2 kilometers contra-rotationally at the angular velocity of an object on the surface of the earth. If he expanded this even further, he could alter vectors relative to center of the solar system, the center of the galaxy, the center of the universe, etc. Thus, if he told all of the independent vectors in a bullet, from the subatomic scale all the way up to the scale where they can be perceived as a bullet, to 'go that way,' all at once, relative to the center of the universe, the bullet would break down into subatomic particles and energy, and shoot off in the indicated direction with velocity determined as a function of the expansion speed of the universe. |
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2010-03-12, 18:58 | Link #208 | |||
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-the earth takes it's frame of reference to be zero. Then accelerator changes the vector of the building and it moves. To the earth, the building just moved 2 kilometres. -to the building itself though, it would set it's own frame of reference to be zero, and suddenly, to the building, it appears that the earth just rotated underneath it 2 kilometres. The earth would say the building moved, and the building says the earth moved, but both frames are valid and equal. Simply choosing a frame of reference doesn't make it special. Quote:
Accerator can tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to himself though. There's a logical break from where you jump from "bullet goes that way" to "bullet breaks down into subatomic particles and energy." One does not follow the other. While the bullet is a huge complex system with multiple vectors from the atoms and spinning electrons, to the frame of reference of the bullet, the whole universe is moving towards the bullet. The complex system of "the bullet" is going about it's merry business with all it's internal electron orbiting and so on. When the universe, with accelerator in it, hits the bullet, the bullet sees the rest of the universe bounce away from it uniformly. This frame of reference is just as valid as Accelerator setting himself as an unmoving frame of reference where the bullet is heading towards him, then the bullet is bounced by his power. There's no picking a frame of reference, they're all valid. And technically, any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me." We might need to move this over to the accelerator thread. If you want to, quote my post and just post in the other thread. I'll check both threads for your reply. |
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2010-03-12, 20:11 | Link #210 | ||||||
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Last edited by Alhazred; 2010-03-13 at 10:51. |
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2010-03-13, 04:27 | Link #212 |
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wow, amazing tread: love the spechula
if you two, Alhazred and CrazyPerson, don't mind me being third spoke, I'd love to join your conversation. (I have read over your posts, and have a general gist of what each person said, and where you are coming from, but being the lazy person i am, i probably won't quote anything. Please correct me if I misinterpret or am wrong. Since both of you seem to be familiar with physics I will make assumptions about your knowledge. And yeah, i made this account with the sole purpose of posting in this epic tread.) First of let me say that we are making assumptions about the world the anime inhabits that might necessarily not be true. There could be some exotic form of physics and unfamiliar laws which affect reality. We are, in fact speculating about the precise physical mechanisms which control a fictional world, designed for the purpose of entertainment (i guess you call this part of the entertainment experience too). However, i do believe we are entailed to these assumption as no meaningful conversation could arise without using the laws and logic familiar to us. It is also apparent that the universe that Uiharu inhabits is similar to our own, as it is created by individuals who live in our reality, and seemingly want to emulate an enhanced version of our reality through the creative medium. A corollary of this, is that the director or creative designer in charge of implementing this realism might have untrue assumptions about how the world works, or might not have understood a physical phenomenon to the point at which they can successfully implement it in the story. This is readily evident in most anime, and especially so when it deals with unfamiliar environments like space. (constant thrust does not equal constant velocity!) Uiharu's world, does have its plot holes, both physically and human aesthetically, however overall it is still a close enough representation of our own world to capture our imaginations. I agree with Alhazred when he says computation is an important aspect of an ability user's power. It makes sense when you consider the fact that information is inseparable from its physical reality. Most users can only use their powers by thinking about it, and the repeated referenced Personal Reality, seems to suggest that the inner subjective reality of an individual modeled in the brain, seems to have an effect on the objective world. It also follows that users who understand their ability better would be stronger than those who did not. The exact physical mechanism between a user's mental computation and the physical manifestation of an ability i cannot say. They haven't given us nearly enough information, but if I had to guess, the AIM field generated by the computation of the mental system somehow causes changes to occur on a metaphysical level (probably defined by their understanding of physics) which then influence their actual world. This is all theoretical and shouldn't really be taken to seriously, but an interesting conclusion i can draw from it is that ability users define their own power. I think it was stated previously that a power works based not on an absolute mechanism, but on how a user believe their power to work. If we consider that most users start of powerless, or with very little ability, it becomes easy to imagine a reinforcing process where a young esper develops a power based on what he sees/imagines his power doing. Makes sense when you consider that what dictates certain users to certain powers seems arbitrary. In reality all abilities are probably really manifestations of a few phenomena, or more likely a single one. People just interpret it differently based on how they experience it. It also explains why certain people can't use powers, as they do not have the ability to imagine themselves using a power which defies physical convention (they are to grounded in reality) as well as the genetic basis for powers, as minds are in a large part designed by genes. Although i think this is already understood. Getting to the topic of this tread, if we think about the specific mechanism involved, i think uiharu's ability is exactly what she says it is: to be able to keep physical systems at a constant temperature. It doesn't matter whether this is achieved through keeping Entropy constant, or through isolate a system (yes, they are different, will explain), or through heating/cooling the system herself. Why? Because that's the limits to the understanding of her ability. There is no specific physical mechanism because it's unobserved. As time passes, her power will evolve with her perception of it. So if she realizes she is really just a pyro, she will be able to create fireballs and such. However, that's an extreme and unlikely example. Because the human mind is so rooted in reality, it is much more likely that she'll realize she can increase or decrease temperatures as well, or invent a reasoning, such as zero entropic change for her ability which becomes reality as she gets used to it. Some of these of these physical mechanisms are quite fun to speculate however. For example, an isolated system would mean that any system Uiharu affected with her ability, would become essentially unobservable (such as the taiyaki in the box) as any interaction by photons or detectable forces would change the arrangement of the system. This means that Uiharu could make things invisible (unobservable is a better word - think event horizon), or rather nonexistent in the physical reality of her universe. This doesn't really seem that plausible, as she would have interpreted her ability as being different to what she thinks it is. Also if she is using her ability to overclock her computer when she does her thing, how can she receive information from other networks unless they were also isolated in the same system as her computer. Unlikely due to her low level. Another one thats interesting, and probably more applicable if she chose, was constant entropy. I know CrazyPerson doesn't really like this idea but i think your thinking of entropy in the wrong way. Rather than no exchange of heat between the box and the environment, what if Uiharu was able to control probability instead. Remember the second law of thermodynamics is only a suggestion not a rule. It's more likely for a system to go from a state of high entropy into a state of lower one, but there is no law at the fundamental level which says it must. Thus Uiharu might be able to control some metavalue of entropic probability of particles that interact with the system in question. For example all the kinetic molecular energy lost to heat by the box, the same arbitrary amount of kinetic energy is added back into the box. This would inherently be different from her intentionally heating the system, as the physical phenomena would be unimportant, random, and uncontrollable, and only lead to the desired effect of maintaining constant entropy. Of course you could explain all the ability through some manipulation of probabilities and metavalues (basically information entropy), and thats the point since all the powers have a common source. A consequence of the idea that all the powers are from the same source, and the understanding of a power leads to more precise definitions of the boundaries under which a power can operate means that people who do not contemplate their powers at all, can have much broader abilities. This requires that information processing, remain discrete, by using abstractions outside thinking. Knowledge of how to manipulate the powers could be passed down without the actual need to understand the physical system that dictates the power. Yes, i am talking about the magic. This completely makes sense when you consider that magic in the anime requires absolute ignorance about the process, and that espers, who use a different mental model about the physical phenomenon that causes the power when compared to magicians, can't use magic (vise-versa). I am getting of topic, but if we return to the problem of the mechanism that controls Uiharu's power, my general thesis is that there is no definite mechanism as the user herself hasn't defined one. But if i had to chose the most probable; some sort of entropic control of physical (and informational) systems. -Kwantum0 PS. Is it just me or are some or do some of the powers seems FTL? If so why are there no time travel mechanism archs? PPS. Accelerator probably can only change the vectors of objects based on definite reference frames he can comprehend. The angular momentum of the earth is OK (somehow...), but the differences in velocities between the galactic core and everyday things is to large to meaningfully understand. |
2010-03-13, 07:34 | Link #213 |
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Time travel would be too complicated, even more complicated than calculating with the involvement of the 11th dimension. Awaki Musujime, a powerful long-distance Teleporter at Level 4 has developed a trauma of using her powers on herself because she experienced being stuck waist-down on concrete after teleporting.
Another thing to ponder on is that the 11th Dimension is somewhat misleading because there are no 5-10th dimensions to begin with, well, AFAIK. Teleportation and some other powers require manipulation of 3 dimensions, but Time Travel would require both mastery of the 3 dimensions plus the ability to manipulate the 4th dimension on himself, which would be a whole new world of calculations.
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2010-03-13, 09:14 | Link #214 |
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Actually, time isn't a '4th dimension' in the sense that the other dimensions are. It's only called that because it's convenient to conceptualize it as a 'fourth axis' visually. The actual 4th dimension, as well as dimensions 5-11, are actually further spatial dimensions. If I remember my random meanderings through wikipedia correctly, dimensions 4-10 are pretty much confirmed as part of a theory called 'superstring' or something, and it's only the 11th which is currently being contended (alternatively, there might be even more). If I've got it right, the spatial dimensions we (as humans) can't sense are supposedly the dimensions by which non-contact forces like gravity or the strong and weak nuclear forces work, via the interactions between subatomic particles such as quarks ('cause, y'know for example, how can gravity pull objects towards each other if they aren't even touching? lol, you might think 'what are you saying, don't even ask that question' but it turns out, if you think about it, that maybe they actually are touching. It's just that the way they do so is via some theoretical particles which are called gravitrons, which are connected to each other in a higher dimension). As for the 'string' part of string theory, those are the theoretical things 'connecting' all these particles in those higher dimensions--what we percieve as 'particles' are really just the ends of these 'strings', the rest of which are hidden in some other dimension.
Teleporters using the 11th dimension to teleport things therefore makes a 'meh' sort of sense to me, given my low-level understanding of this stuff. Moving through a higher spatial dimension would indeed appear to be teleportation to our perception, just like how they explain what we percieve as 'forces at a distance' like gravity. But I'm sure that, to all the real physicists who know what the 11th dimension is actually supposed to do or who might even be arguing that it doesn't exist, such an explanation for psychic 'teleporting' abilities might be completely off-base. To the rest of the physics guys: lol, I'm just a n00b procrastinating his way through an undergraduate degree here. My lectures have gotten nowhere near addressing this stuff (don't think they ever will), so call me out if anything I've said was complete bullshit. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-03-13 at 09:27. |
2010-03-13, 16:21 | Link #215 | |||
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If you imagine the brain as a computational system, it is much easier for it to discern simple and more ordered systems than chaotic ones. Thus, its easier for us to think of past events, which are computational simple, then to think of future events which are harder to calculate. That is why the human mind perceives an arrow that is not necessarily true. The universe works just as well forwards as backwards, just only way is computationally simpler to understand. This is probably not the best explanation, and if your interested in this topic you should search for "entropy and the arrow of time" Sol Falling, you are basically correct about string theory (now membrane theory), the only thing i'd caution you on is that String theory is one of those ideas that has been and might always will be 10 years from completion. Its a nice idea, but by no means the correct one. I do believe that there are probably other dimensions, and that reality is much grander than we imagine, or can possible imagine. (teleporters and timetravelers - its the same thing - are forth dimensional beings) |
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2010-03-14, 12:30 | Link #218 | |
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2010-03-14, 14:43 | Link #219 |
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surely you meant telekinesis.
Also, it wouldn't seem to imply telekinesis in the classic sense per se. More like telekinesis as an action mechanism. Aero Shooters, for example, can't use telekinesis in the broad spectrum, but maybe the method employed to move the wind is selective telekinesis biased towards air.
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