2016-06-26, 14:40 | Link #201 | |
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Windermere are being really ungodly stupid, though. I still put my money on Heinz will fix this with Freyja and Walkure.
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2016-06-26, 14:52 | Link #202 |
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For Windermere to have any justification about how they went about things, two events must have happened:
1.) The lightning-hole on their planet must be slowly destroying the planet itself. 2.) Appeals for help were ignored by NUNS. That would result in them having nowhere else to go but to war. Nonetheless, it still wouldn't justify the bioweapon attacks on civilian populaces throughout the sector, i.e. deliberately inducing VAR syndrome.
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2016-06-26, 15:08 | Link #203 | |
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2016-06-26, 15:09 | Link #204 | |
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NUNS is the military branch though. Anyway, NUG cut ties with Windermere and established an embargo after the independence war. So doesn't look like they were willing to talk and negotiate with them at all. I'll remind you that Roid wants to sit and negotiate on equal terms which strongly implies that this was impossible. However, I want to bring up three things after this episode and the Windermere manga chapter: 1. King Gramia puts his people's well-being and is willing to eat up his pride to avoid a conflict even if the treatment makes Ernest upset. Does that sound like a man who would use forbidden weapons on his planet and population (which are mysteriously mising. Where are these so called dimensional weapons that they allegedly possesses?)? 2. NUN Central Office Representative as contrast is portrayed as a moustache-twirling bastard who just exploded the ruins, NUNS soldiers, civilians, potentially endangered a planetary ecosystem using the conflict as an excuse before folding out of there. 3. Roid was going to visit the Protoculture ruins in the latest chapter and then drop by the castle after he's done. That implies there were ruins in Windermere which we don't see in the show (and can't be the ship which was within the castle it seems). Why are those ruins missing? I'm not bothering to argue about morals or ethics here. I'm presenting a few facts and trying to guess the direction of the plot with all the hints we've been given.
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2016-06-26, 15:25 | Link #205 |
Zero Two Best waifu 2018
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I haven't seen anything that make me wanna sympathize toward the Windermere. Vers at least has has princess Asseylum and what does Windermere has? Maybe in future but currently they are bunch of dicks slaving people and calling it "liberating them".
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2016-06-26, 15:41 | Link #210 | |
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Just like nobody has denied people of all sides will die. I thought Gramia will die and he's dead, isn't he? (I wasn't even favoriting them, I've said time and time again that my favorite team is Walkure, followed by Delta. I just don't see the show making the Aerial Knights evil or final villains when Epsilon and local NUN have far more shadier representation). Nonetheless, the utter denial that the NUN and Earthlings cannot do wrong when they have been portrayed as antagonists or incompetent before is just plain ridiculous and speaks of self-inserting, over empathizing and projecting some fake sense of moral superiority on faceless people we didn't even met until the last episode introduced a cartoonish jerk who is not so subtly a bad guy. As I even brought up before the previous entry to Delta (not Frontier, the game) had one of the higher officers of the NUN central office as the final villain. It's not something that is super rare. All I know there is an official effort to present Windermere as people: as misguided and wrong they could be, they have a manga and space in the show to be fleshed out. While what do NUN got? Some dude who might as well have "Bad Guy" tattooed on his forehead. Overlapping NUN and Chaos is a mistake. Chaos is your protagonists, NUN from this Cluster aren't. And Ernest has been vocal against them in the manga. It's really not that complex, when the show is unfortunately stereotyping very hard. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the Epsilon guy isn't a boss too. I hope he isn't. Yes, so? She's going to be a bridge of understanding with Heinz eventually. She states and declares this and Freyja is working toward this goal. Out of curiosity, which other Macross did you watch?
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2016-06-26, 15:59 | Link #211 |
A blast from the past
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Yeah, like I said before, NUG was never really the best of us, was it? Even going as far back as 7? Basara was never really a military man, was he? Always an outsider... I think Kawamori is not even trying to hide his preference for the "underdog" versus the "military superpower". Take from that what we will...
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2016-06-26, 16:02 | Link #212 | |
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Also, while we're there... Other people claimed it would be perfecly OK to 1) nuke Windermere and destroy their entire civilization (including all the civilians and others who have nothing to do with the whole Var thing), and 2) to blow up the Protoculture ruins at Ragna, doing who knows what to the planet and oh, all its residents (who are currently displaced and may have lost their home planet forever*)... ...and all along they kept claiming to have the moral and intellectual high ground. If we're to accuse people of having scary opinions I think this definitely deserves a mention. *of course they'll eventually return because this is not that kind of a story, but just consider. Try to imagine it happening in the real world, if that helps. Last edited by kuromitsu; 2016-06-26 at 16:22. |
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2016-06-26, 16:07 | Link #213 | |
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He seems to favor smaller independent space-oriented factions and mercenaries (SMS and Chaos), IMO. Even Isamu is portrayed as a rebel in his job. It's a little tiring that there's an evil NUN guy in almost every entry now, though. However this slowly becoming a staple.
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2016-06-26, 16:59 | Link #214 |
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Sorry, but the sudden backtracking some people do on "Nobody defended Windermere" is ridiculous and, again, playing with semantics. Yes, some of you guys defended their actions, called the killed civilians "fodder" and outright declared that NUNS was at fault when the evidence was extremely flimsy.
And I continue to say that, while the justification of Windermere might be there to go to war, they are still war criminals for their release of a bioweapon on civilian populaces. Yes, it is a bioweapon which by now they have learned to control better, but that is cold comfort to the dead and their relatives. The very real possibility that there might be bigger villains than Windermere out there does not absolve them of their premeditated crimes. Not. At. All. If you keep defending them past that point, you are defending Windermere.
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2016-06-26, 17:03 | Link #215 | ||
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Pointing out a potential logical conclusion that they would team up against a bigger bad guy, after some losses of each side, isn't "defending anyone." It's simply pointing out a stereotypical outcome I expect the show to deliver. You seem way too emotionally invested in this while I view it as entertainment. I'm trying to do guesswork while you're trying to pass on moral judgment which I don't care about frankly speaking.
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-06-26 at 17:17. |
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2016-06-26, 17:19 | Link #216 | |||
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And, as I said above, I don't expect a Macross show to follow stereotypes.
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2016-06-26, 17:19 | Link #217 | |
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(If Gramia was alive this is the point where I'd make a GRAMIA DID NOTHING WRONG, GLORY TO WINDERMERE MASTER RACE sig, but alas now I'll have to wait to see if Roid delivers on that front enough to be used for this purpose.) |
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2016-06-26, 17:22 | Link #218 | |
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2016-06-26, 17:26 | Link #219 | |||
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You don't expect a Macross show to follow stereotypes when they introduced a stereotypical evil military commander and a stereotypical evil middle eastern guy and maybe to complete the trifecta of evil is the stereotypical white haired with creepy glasses pleasant nice guy who really really loves science? Delta has been swimming in stereotypes. Look at Messer, he turned out as stereotypical senpai/mentor who dies so the protagonist would level up (and he was my favorite male character).
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