[Manga] Can anyone Beat Itachi?

[MysticNinjaJay]

But about my original issue does anyone know what Itachi really says in his conversation with Kisame about what to do about Jiraiya? The manga translation and anime subtitles are very different.

[Bill_gates]

Originally Posted by CyberPunk

you're overlooking a few things. itachi turned his attention to sasuke, beating his ass and using a severely draining move. there's no telling what would have happened if itachi had focused on jiraiya the entire time.

Oh really? So beating Sasuke took up a large chunk of his power? I don't think so
When Sasuke charged with the chidori, Itachi grabbed his hand beat him in a corner and shattered his mind easily. Jiraya didn't look the LEAST bit drained after using his technique. But the technique Itachi used to escape Almost totally drianed him to the point where he had to REST. If Itachi could have used another move to escape he would certainly have done so. So it can be correctly assumed that he is no match for Jiraya. If you guys rewatch that episode youll definelty see what i mean.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by Bill_gates

Oh really? So beating Sasuke took up a large chunk of his power? I don't think so
When Sasuke charged with the chidori, Itachi grabbed his hand beat him in a corner and shattered his mind easily. Jiraya didn't look the LEAST bit drained after using his technique. But the technique Itachi used to escape Almost totally drianed him to the point where he had to REST. If Itachi could have used another move to escape he would certainly have done so. So it can be correctly assumed that he is no match for Jiraya. If you guys rewatch that episode youll definelty see what i mean.

To correct the uninformed.

Itachi used Tsukiyomi 2 times prior to using Amaterasu

So no crap he had to rest

I do think Jiraiya could beat Itachi, considering Itachi said in best case scenario, he and Kisame would die trying to defeat Jiraiya (Which alot of people here seemed to forget about)

[CyberPunk]

Originally Posted by Bill_gates

Oh really? So beating Sasuke took up a large chunk of his power? I don't think so
When Sasuke charged with the chidori, Itachi grabbed his hand beat him in a corner and shattered his mind easily. Jiraya didn't look the LEAST bit drained after using his technique. But the technique Itachi used to escape Almost totally drianed him to the point where he had to REST. If Itachi could have used another move to escape he would certainly have done so. So it can be correctly assumed that he is no match for Jiraya. If you guys rewatch that episode youll definelty see what i mean.

the fucking point is that itachi wasn't focused on jiraiya. his attention was on sasuke and only sasuke when jiraiya did his move. correctly assumed that he's no match for jiraiya? get your head out of your ass man. there's no telling what would have happened if itachi and jiraiya went head to head with no interference.

[Victim]

Originally Posted by Ke0

To correct the uninformed.

Itachi used Tsukiyomi 2 times prior to using Amaterasu

So no crap he had to rest

I do think Jiraiya could beat Itachi, considering Itachi said in best case scenario, he and Kisame would die trying to defeat Jiraiya (Which alot of people here seemed to forget about)

I'd say the very fact that he uses tiring jutsus profligately is an exploitable weakness and thus reflects on his strength. A clever enemy wouldn't choose to fight Itachi when he's at full power. But let waste power toying with his kid brother, or showing off to kakashi, and he becomes more manageable. Ninja don't have to play fair.

[Wisely]

Who can beat Itachi? I won't really know...

The only guys Itachi really fought were:

Kakashi (jutsu speed is god-like)
Sasuke (taijutsu is better then a genin)

Itachi = Sannin level as most people believed
He has potential killer moves like Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu

I am unable to give a definite answer but based on the results of the discussion, I can assume that there are two outcomes:

1, No one can beat him for Itachi supporters ( In chinese we have a saying " There is always a mountain higher then another mountain, there are always stronger people out there)

2, We won't know until the author draws it for us normal readers...

Well, thats my 20 cents worth, hehe

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by CyberPunk

the fucking point is that itachi wasn't focused on jiraiya. his attention was on sasuke and only sasuke when jiraiya did his move. correctly assumed that he's no match for jiraiya? get your head out of your ass man. there's no telling what would have happened if itachi and jiraiya went head to head with no interference.

You are right, Itachi was focused on Sasuke, but that does not justify his actions afterwards (not being able to react successively, hence feeling the urgency to run away from the scene) or the way he allowed this to happen. A ninja should expect the unexpected, especially a skilled ninja like Itachi. When there is an opponent like Jiraiya standing behind him, what did he expect? Jiraiya will chit-chat with Naruto! Maybe he expected that Kisame could easily control Jiraiya's actions which is worse both underestimating Jiraiya and putting his comrade's life in danger (-> a small scratch to the charisma). Anyway, as a result of this meeting, we have learned that Itachi is not perfect hence can be beaten.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Ke0

To correct the uninformed.

Itachi used Tsukiyomi 2 times prior to using Amaterasu

So no crap he had to rest

I do think Jiraiya could beat Itachi, considering Itachi said in best case scenario, he and Kisame would die trying to defeat Jiraiya (Which alot of people here seemed to forget about)

Naruto episode 83

Kisame: He's an opponent that you may be abel to face. But I'm not sure about myself. He's of a different degree.

Itachi: Yeah. If we fight him we both put our lives at risk. Where we fight him doesn't matter. Even if there were more of our kind... nothing would make a difference.

Kisame: Him being one of the Legendary three..... He'll be a hard opponent even for one of Konoha's Uchiha Clan and one of the Mist's Seven Angles of Shinobi Katana.

Itachi: Yeah however... everone has a weakness, no matter how strong they first appear to be.

Thats the conversation so there shouldn't be anymore "Well Itachi said they'd die if they fought him." from anybody who reads this thread. however.....[IMG]C://Naruto144_09.jpg[/IMG] does anyone know which conversation is more accurate.Oh and if that pic doesn't show its because I don't know how to post manga pics

[glutenberg]

Kisame: Perhaps you can fight him evenly, but I cannot. He's too strong.

Itachi: Yes. If we both fought him, we would both be killed...or in a good case, we might kill him, but we'd die along with him. Even if we had more men, that result would not change.

Kisame: His caretaker is a legendary Sannin. Konoha's Uchiha Clan and the Mist's Seven Shinobi-gatana seem petty before his name.

Itachi: Yes, but...All strong opponents have a weakness (pervertedness, lol, weird weakness).

This is the Anbu - Aone translation from the anime.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Heh pervertedness. Its even more pathetic that they knew his weakness . Both of those translation sound screwy and the manga translation from chapter 44 page 9 is even more different. So I don't know, is there a japanese speaking fan in the house?

[huntern1n]

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

Heh pervertedness. Its even more pathetic that they knew his weakness . Both of those translation sound screwy and the manga translation from chapter 44 page 9 is even more different. So I don't know, is there a japanese speaking fan in the house?

The Translation is correct dunno about your sources geez, u are just to naiv ^^ and dont want to admit that he can be beated. And I do think that Jiraya and Orochimaru could probably beat Itachi!!! after all they are sannin's and cosidered at hokage level pluss everyone say that they are LEGENDARY must be a reason for it...There is for sure more powerfull people than Itachi in Akatsuki.

Ahh yea do you really belive that Orochimaru and Jiraya has never seen a battle or never fight vs sharingan users in 50 years ?? im pretty sure that both of them know exacly what todo vs sharingan user like Itachi.

yeah sorry for my bad english ....

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by huntern1n

The Translation is correct dunno about your sources geez, u are just to naiv ^^ and dont want to admit that he can be beated. And I do think that Jiraya and Orochimaru could probably beat Itachi!!! after all they are sannin's and cosidered at hokage level pluss everyone say that they are LEGENDARY must be a reason for it...There is for sure more powerfull people than Itachi in Akatsuki.

Ahh yea do you really belive that Orochimaru and Jiraya has never seen a battle or never fight vs sharingan users in 50 years ?? im pretty sure that both of them know exacly what todo vs sharingan user like Itachi.

yeah sorry for my bad english ....

maybe Tsunade can beat Itachi too since she's the LEGENDARY Sucker.

[Faktor-IV]

I like how you guys put Gai's name up there for formiddable opponent to Itachi. Applying the Rock ,Scissors and paper theory . I enjoy those kind of debates which requires some thinking. But at the same time, I do believe there is a reason why there is ranks in Naruto. Genin,Chunnin,Anbu,Jounin,Hokage etc.. of course there will always be anomaly in the equation.. like potential greater than ranks or overshadows ranks..ex naruto vs Kabuto . Even though S-rank is not specific rank, it is unclear for kisame but it is quite clear that Itachi is in a different lvl than any konoha jounins. They protrayed that crystal clear by itachi wiping out kakashi with no effort at all. I think Gai wouldve ended up with the same result as kakashi.


As for Jiriarya and Oro...

only thing i can go by is what we've SEEN so far, from that Jiraira> Orochimaru

other than Summoning the Dead and Manda , Oro really havent used any high lvl jutsu. And his pattern of jutsu he used were pretty lowj lv jutsu. LIke snakes coming out of his mouth, stretching his body,neck and legs etc.. While Jiraria patterns were high lvl , Swamp of the Underworld, Frog Stomach , rasengan and Gamabunta.From my perspective, Jirariya patterns of techniques portrays him the strongest of the three. Being 4th Hokage teacher and learning from the 4th, he just seems he has bigger arsenal of high lvl jutsu than oro.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by huntern1n

The Translation is correct dunno about your sources geez, u are just to naiv ^^ and dont want to admit that he can be beated. And I do think that Jiraya and Orochimaru could probably beat Itachi!!! after all they are sannin's and cosidered at hokage level pluss everyone say that they are LEGENDARY must be a reason for it...There is for sure more powerfull people than Itachi in Akatsuki.

Ahh yea do you really belive that Orochimaru and Jiraya has never seen a battle or never fight vs sharingan users in 50 years ?? im pretty sure that both of them know exacly what todo vs sharingan user like Itachi.

yeah sorry for my bad english ....

I don't mind your bad english. I am a bit annoyed by your ignorant statements and name calling directed at me. Junior members such as yourself should read the thread before quoting someone who has posted throughout the bulk of it before they think they know their opinion. That was naive of you my silly friend. Why don't you read a couple of my posts and get a better idea of my opinion before you start asking me baseless questions and annoying me with your stupid comments. "Jiraiya AND Orochimaru can beat beat Itachi because they are LEGENDARY super people!" And the fact that Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger than him means nothing to you because?

[vega98767]

[QUOTE]=I like how you guys put Gai's name up there for formiddable opponent to Itachi. Applying the Rock ,Scissors and paper theory . I enjoy those kind of debates which requires some thinking. But at the same time, I do believe there is a reason why there is ranks in Naruto. Genin,Chunnin,Anbu,Jounin,Hokage etc.. of course there will always be anomaly in the equation.. like potential greater than ranks or overshadows ranks..ex naruto vs Kabuto . Even though S-rank is not specific rank, it is unclear for kisame but it is quite clear that Itachi is in a different lvl than any konoha jounins. They protrayed that crystal clear by itachi wiping out kakashi with no effort at all. I think Gai wouldve ended up with the same result as kakashi.
QUOTE]

Yes Gai could not beat Itachi unless he opened up 7 gates (opening 8 would be pointless because he'd die anyways) but we can't really argue that or not because we don't know how powerful Gai would be so I guess its more likely Gai can't beat Itachi until we know Gais full power. And for you to say Naruto is better than Kabuto is just silly. Kabuto fought one of the legendary 3, got some serious wounds, used alot of his chakra fighting Tsunade, and used chakra to summon the snakes for Oro and kicked the crap out of Naruto until his fist was caught because he got arrogant and let his guard down and then survived from the Rasegan and nearly killed Naruto. After all that I don't think anyone could say that Naruto (at this point) is better than Kabuto.

[Faktor-IV]

[QUOTE=vega98767]

=I like how you guys put Gai's name up there for formiddable opponent to Itachi. Applying the Rock ,Scissors and paper theory . I enjoy those kind of debates which requires some thinking. But at the same time, I do believe there is a reason why there is ranks in Naruto. Genin,Chunnin,Anbu,Jounin,Hokage etc.. of course there will always be anomaly in the equation.. like potential greater than ranks or overshadows ranks..ex naruto vs Kabuto . Even though S-rank is not specific rank, it is unclear for kisame but it is quite clear that Itachi is in a different lvl than any konoha jounins. They protrayed that crystal clear by itachi wiping out kakashi with no effort at all. I think Gai wouldve ended up with the same result as kakashi.
QUOTE]

Yes Gai could not beat Itachi unless he opened up 7 gates (opening 8 would be pointless because he'd die anyways) but we can't really argue that or not because we don't know how powerful Gai would be so I guess its more likely Gai can't beat Itachi until we know Gais full power. And for you to say Naruto is better than Kabuto is just silly. Kabuto fought one of the legendary 3, got some serious wounds, used alot of his chakra fighting Tsunade, and used chakra to summon the snakes for Oro and kicked the crap out of Naruto until his fist was caught because he got arrogant and let his guard down and then survived from the Rasegan and nearly killed Naruto. After all that I don't think anyone could say that Naruto (at this point) is better than Kabuto.

I never said Naruto was stronger than Kabuto. It was just one example of how potential overshadowed ranks.

[vega98767]

Originally Posted by Faktor-IV

I never said Naruto was stronger than Kabuto. It was just one example of how potential overshadowed ranks.

My mistake then. I do agree then potential can overshadow rank.

[vega98767]

Originally Posted by Faktor-IV

I never said Naruto was stronger than Kabuto. It was just one example of how potential overshadowed ranks.

My mistake then.

[vega98767]

And sorry for the double post

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Macbrother

Hurt does not at all have imply physical pain, it can simply refer to damage taken as per the definition of the word. That's the relavent issue; do summons have the same threshold of pain that a human does and therefore could be exploited by Itachi during the Tsukiyomi. That's the point you seem to have glossed over, Itachi knows how a human works, knows how Sasuke works, he knows absolutely nothing about how Gamabunta works and would could possibly be a source of mental struggle for him. What was the point of Enma fighting btw? He already made 2 kage bunshins for each of kage's and already called forth Shiki Fuujin. That's beside the point however, I never posted anywhere summon were immune to genjutsu.

Please your point since the beginning is that the summon aren't necessarily subject to pain and genjutsu.
You just come again and again with the baseless assumption that they couldn't feel pain or Genjutsu for unknown reason (they didn't have nerves I suppose?) like if they would be some robo.
The various summon to Pakkun from Gamabunta showed the same intelect and panel of emotion than human.
Gamabunta was pissed that his son was endangered by Shukaku, Manda was furious to be ashamed by Oro, etc.
Just make Gamabunta watching his children being cut in pieces to be eaten on a french table and I'm sure he would like the show.
What use of Enma? The 3rd was blind, his Kage Bunshin being stabbed in the dark while searching for the undead Hokage and Enma was just watching eating popcorn?
Enma was taken in a Genjutsu and didn't show in anyways that he wasn't subject to it, simple as that.

I didn't invent any reasons for anything, I simply stated the obviousness that summons are in fact different than humans and therefore saying with certainty that they will be affected by the same type of mental attack that a human would is invalid. Hell, guess what, by that reason I could say Kyuubi is susceptible to this great and legendary Tsukiyomi, I mean hey, he has emotions and think and act like a human too right? Give me a break.

You stated no obviousness, the story never showed any bit of difference in the way the mind of Gamabunta, Manda, Pakkun, etc. work compared to human, you also say that maybe they were unkillable to add to your point contrary to what the manga showed too and that maybe they wouldn't feel pain for some unknown reasons.

And yeah it's also perfectly possible that the Kyubi could be affected by this jutsu like any other Genjutsu except that in his case we really don't know if he could be wounded at all or if the only way to take him down was to tear off his soul, or if the reason his soul is in Naruto and not in the belly of the Shinigami is due to his incredibly strong soul, etc.

We've seen the sky in Naruto btw, so you can use another example if you like.

Funny way to avoid the point.

Fine then, but out of curiosity do you think only 12 hours would've had the same affect? 24? 48? Do you think it's for nothing he attacked Kakashi for 3 days while attacking Sasuke for 1?

No I don't, and as a matter of fact Kakashi was using the Sharingan whereas Sasuke wasn't which adds to the fact that some resistance can be done with the Sharingan.

What would size have to do with it? No, how about the fact he could be hundreds of years old and has probably been exposed to many many things including the sharingan and he even knew about Shukaku considering he is currently affiliated with the leaf. (though an older master could've been sand, who knows) Btw he wouldn't need to know about mangekyou just to know that a sharingan user's eyes are dangerous. And indeed, Jiraiya didn't know about Amaterasu; so what? Do you think he doesn't know that simply a sharingan users eyes are dangerous to stare into? If not, it should be quite an easy battle for Itachi next time.

You simply have no point, you assume that a summon should know about the way the Sharingan works and how to deal with it just because they're supposed to be old and that they would just have to know that the Sharingan's user eyes are dangerous? Then why Asuma and Kurenai haven't a way to avoid them?
They're however affiliated to Konoha.
Gai has one way to dealt with the hypnotism because Kakashi is his rival, what would be the reason of a Summon except the one you invent out of nothing to fit your point?

Fair enough point, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't do anything about it. Shodaime's genjutsu example seemed to be almost completely worthless despite the darkness, Sarutobi very quickly sniffed out the two kages and blocked much of the attacks sent at him. Very dangerous, yes, but certainly he had ways around it. And of course, the user needs to be not simply outclassed as well, Itachi v Kakashi is just a mismatch in all categories, that doesn't mean that say Sarutobi would also be completely worthless if he did get caught within the Tsukiyomi. Similarly, the grand summon are not outclassed either.

Sarutobi's clones were stabbed several times and didn't block much of the attacks anyway, the anime showed him blocking many attacks to let him the time to say all he had to say.
And fact is that he didn't break the Genjutsu, he just dealt with the situation as it was whereas I really doubt the 3rd wasn't good at Genjutsu anyway.
I have no doubt that Sarutobi could have fought and crushed Itachi when he was younger, but I don't see any reason to think that he could have particulary resisted to the Tsukiyomi if Itachi would have succeed to take him "within" this illusion world.

lol you don't think the grand summon have strong personalities? Especially Manda and Gamabunta? Just listen to them. Also, don't confuse two points, I'm not talking about normal genjutsu when I'm talking about will, I only mention will when referring to the Tsukiyomi as that's specifically what that genjutsu attacks.

No I don't think that summon have strong personalities just like I don't think that all human have strong personalities because 2 of them would be like that.
And to have a strong personalities wouldn't change the fact that you would have been stabbed continually (or whatever tortures) during days anyway.
Kakashi's mind wasn't crushed (even if both him and Kisame were surprised and that Kakashi even said that Itachi could have killed him if he had wanted to) but he was completely exhausted, unable to do anything and finally fell in the coma and had to be healed by no-one but Tsunade.

Actually in the context they are in fact very much alike, I am both referring to them in their use in feint type strategy situations where the point is the opponent attacking the wrong target for whatever reason.

lol bullshit, and a knive is very much alike of a Kage Bunshin because it could be used in feint type strategy as well in this case.
These jutsu are simply absolutely not the same thing.

I never said anyone could completely see through a kage bunshin or kawarimi, just that uses of these attacks would probably be less effective against someone with more insight and more experience, I mean jesus if that's the case he can just use exploding kage bunshin over and over and the sannin will keep falling for it. Gai having less insight for instance I doubt would have known the difference, I doubt it has anything to do with the sharingan; but it's true it's possible.

If Itachi has enough chakra to make a huge bunch of Kage Bunshin and make them explode then yeah none of the Sannin (or of the Hokage for that matters)never ever showed anything which could lead to think that they can know which are the clones and who's the real one.
He would have to destroy them all remotely or protect themself with some of their various amount of jutsu.

__________________________________________________ ___

ShurikenJay, the old manga translation is completely wrong and Inane seems to have used the same old and inacurate translation (for this chapter anyway) with just better scan from the manga and not the prepublication.
The translation of A&A isn't so good either, the one you used is better though.
Basically Kisame did say that he couldn't stand against one of the Sannin and Itachi said if he may beat him he could also die in the process.
Ie their power isn't so far from each other to lead to a clear outcome in a fight.