Retro versus Modern Anime

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Who do you call veterans? Those whose first anime was Dragon Ball and whose fandom started after 1995 and call themselves veterans or those from before?

I can say that I can be classified as a veteran, having started watching them while the average user of this forum was not even born. However, there is always someone who is in the hobby since way longer than us. In this forum, those are the likes of Vexx and Seiji-sensei.

But do YOU see them opening topics about how anime were much better when it was all about Astro Boy, Candy Candy and World's Masterpiece Theater? They are veterans I am okay with.

Those I am not okay with and DO stand against are those who whines a little too much and not even bother to look harder and find the little gems that they have missed while sitting on their benches and moaned about how times used to be better. Perhaps you would not see me so much if they did not cry so much.

Given the history of french anime fandom, I DO know what it is to be saturated with rubbish with the few hits (80s- early 90s) and I also know how it is when anime nearly fades out of television because of a ridiculous morale crusade from parents and local television creative lobbies (late 90s- early 2000s), where the ONLY anime we had gotten from 1997 to 2001 was f*cking Pokemon, and at that point, the airing of CCS in 2001 was a breath of fresh air.

And I pray that it will never happen to your area.

lol the only animes I recall my pathetic local television airing, were Heidi and a mecha series we used to call "Grandizer" (gonagai's) and I dont even know what its actually called in Japanese. I can only be thankful I had Disney works in my teenage years. At the time, I remember borrowing Guyver Bio something from a friend, and I still remember amongst the previews before the main feature started, there was that brief short scene of a very dark themed anime of a purple haired cyborg girl. Something that promised Ghost in the Shell (the movie) goodness. Also, something there's very thin chances poeple like me (anime rookies) will ever hear of. It would be nice if someone dug that one up and some other burried stuff I didn't stumple upon in my childhood, repolished it, and introduced me to it ......... Instead of the 5th remake of Se7en

I'll be fare though. You are absolutely right. In the economic state the world is currently going through, and given how different the audiance have become, and looking at already tried and failed examples, I may be asking too much ..
I rest my case heh ..

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by fukarming

I really don't understand what all the argument are for retro vs modern anime after reading all the posts.

1. There are alot more anime produce every season now compare to 20-30 years ago.

Right.

2. It is impossible to call something a classic unless it can stand against the flow of time, also it is possible to see how a certain anime influence the anime industry until at least 5-10 years from the said anime is aired.

Generally true, but there's already obvious examples of how the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has influenced the anime industry. The character designs of Angel Beats! are, in and of themselves, very notable here.

3. Compare to 20 years ago, people appreciate anime differently.

That may be true.

4. Compare to 20 years ago, the strategy of airing anime are very different.

Agreed.

2. The original gundam is a classic, but if you watched it in 2010, you will found the plot boring as hell, but you cannot deny its classic status because it revolutionize the mecha anime genre.

I strongly disagree.

I never watched the original Gundam until about three years ago, IIRC. Many of the old classic animes I watched within the same timespan as I watched many of the more recent hit animes.

I found the original Gundam very interesting and rewarding. I loved the sincerity and general "no frills" approach in its story-telling, and how it rarely if ever took shortcuts. I felt that it did a great job of fleshing out most of its key characters, and giving everybody of note a distinct and often colorful personality.

Now, I also enjoyed Gundam Seed, and I will admit that Gundam Seed is much flashier and impressive at a visual level. But, this is a bit of a double-edged sword, imo. I personally found that Gundam Seed required suspension of disbelief a fair bit more than the original Gundam did.

Overall, I would say that I enjoyed the original Mobile Suit Gundam as much as I did Gundam Seed.

3. I believe that is the main point of my argument: people watch things differently 20-30 years ago. Char Aznable is probably the most popular character in the gundam franchise of all time. However, if you dissect his actions in the original trilogy, you will find that he is not so great.

If you dissect the actions of Lelouch Lamperouge, or Raito Yagami, or just about any highly popular modern anime character, you can find flaws with these highly regarded anime characters as well.

Characters aren't necessarily bad characters just because some of their actions are questionable.

He has no political wisdom whatsoever and make plenty of stupid mistakes in his life that make little sense at all.

Conventional politics was rarely, if ever, Char's interest. His interest was primarily revenge on the Zabi family, and making a place in the universe for NewTypes. He was fairly consistent on both those marks, IIRC.

People back in the days do not criticize character and plot flaws like Char.

The internet didn't exist back when Char first appeared on the scene. You never had message boards back then where people could debate anime characters on-line. People may very well have criticized character flaws back then, but we'd have no way of knowing for sure if they did or not.

Audience nowadays, however, love to analyze (and over analyze) characters and if there are plot holes (similar to those related to Char)

A plot hole isn't just a character making a questionable decision, by the way. A plot hole is character inconsistency or a plot thread left hanging, or being outright contradicted.

If you're claiming that Char is the source of plot holes in the original Mobile Suit Gundam, then it would be good if you could specify just one such specific plot hole.

will bash the show in pieces, thus it is alot more difficult to have a classic in modern time compare to 20-30 years ago.

I disagree. I find that people are just as forgiving of plot holes now as they ever were. Oh, they may bring up the plot holes, but it generally won't stop people from viewing a hit anime as "awesome" or "great" or a "classic" inspite of those plot holes.

4. Back in the days, anime are much longer than it is nowadays. So it has the tendencies to drag with fillers (enemy of the week), but also have more time to develop its characters. In a filler episode back in the days, there may be 20 min of forgettable stuff and only 5 min of character development. After 50+ episodes, the character development adds up and the character become complete. When you think of the show 10 years later, you tend to forget the bad dragging part and only remember how good the character developed. Nowadays most anime are only 13/26 episodes and thus they do not have the luxury to take their time to complete their character, not to mention the bias that when you watch something for so long, you tend to grow and stick to the character even though you know the show has gone downhill.

There's some truth to this, but Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, and Pokemon are still ongoing. Your statement is generally true of brand new anime of the last few years though, yes.

Personally, I don't mind filler when it comes with good, consistent character development. It's when the character development is very spotty that we run into problems, imo.

For those who claim anime producers should make more remake, I believe they would be disappointed. Use LOGH as an example, it is a classic, but I believe it will be picked apart if it is aired nowadays. My basis is that Tytania is written from the same author from a similar time and aired in 2008 and it is a non-factor. Plotwise it is from the same author under the similar background so if Tytania cannot produce a stir in the 2000s, I doubt LOGH can be different significantly.

Look, the people who are suggesting remakes (including myself) are not necessarily saying that older pre-2000s anime are better than what we have today or recently. What I'm saying is that the great animes of past decades have a distinct character and feel compared to the great animes of today.

It's not that the great animes of recent times aren't great; it's that they're often great in different ways from the great animes of past decades. The pros and cons are often different, and this can make a difference for certain anime viewers (i.e. the cons of the modern greats may bother certain anime fans moreso than the cons of older greats).

Nobody is saying that these remakes should take the place of the modern Bakemonogataris or Durararas or any anime really; rather, that maybe they'd be a nice complimentary addition to what we already have.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I strongly disagree.

I never watched the original Gundam until about three years ago, IIRC. Many of the old classic animes I watched within the same timespan as I watched many of the more recent hit animes.

I found the original Gundam very interesting and rewarding. I loved the sincerity and general "no frills" approach in its story-telling, and how it rarely if ever took shortcuts. I felt that it did a great job of fleshing out most of its key characters, and giving everybody of note a distinct and often colorful personality.

Now, I also enjoyed Gundam Seed, and I will admit that Gundam Seed is much flashier and impressive at a visual level. But, this is a bit of a double-edged sword, imo. I personally found that Gundam Seed required suspension of disbelief a fair bit more than the original Gundam did.

Overall, I would say that I enjoyed the original Mobile Suit Gundam as much as I did Gundam Seed.

Did you watch the original TV gundam (the one with 43 episode) or the three movie compilation? I like the three movie compilation but couldn't stand the 43 episode TV version. I believe the three movie compilation already tighten the plot compare to the TV version.

I think the plot of original TV gundam is moving way too slow. But that's the charm of old classic anime but TV gundam is too slow to my liking.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If you dissect the actions of Lelouch Lamperouge, or Raito Yagami, or just about any highly popular modern anime character, you can find flaws with these highly regarded anime characters as well.

Characters aren't necessarily bad characters just because some of their actions are questionable.

Exactly my point. Characters like Lelouch was picked apart by modern audience, but Char did not get picked apart back in the days.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The internet didn't exist back when Char first appeared on the scene. You never had message boards back then where people could debate anime characters on-line. People may very well have criticized character flaws back then, but we'd have no way of knowing for sure if they did or not.

Exactly my point. Because old classic anime don't need to go through the scrutiny of internet and message boards, audience are more likely to accept the character as the director imaged. Nowadays we love to go on message board and analyze characters. It is alot more difficult to make an "ideal" character in 2010 compare to 20-30 years ago.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Conventional politics was rarely, if ever, Char's interest. His interest was primarily revenge on the Zabi family, and making a place in the universe for NewTypes. He was fairly consistent on both those marks, IIRC.

A plot hole isn't just a character making a questionable decision, by the way. A plot hole is character inconsistency or a plot thread left hanging, or being outright contradicted.

If you're claiming that Char is the source of plot holes in the original Mobile Suit Gundam, then it would be good if you could specify just one such specific plot hole.

I guess I should elaborate more on my previous post.

I am not saying Char contradict himself, but he contradict the image the director had on him. Char is known as a cool character in the gundam universe and audience take the director's image for granted. A character can hardly be called cool if he makes idiotic move, which is exactly what Char did (for his trap on Garma. When I first watched Gundam, I keep thinking killing Garma is the first part of a elaborate plan to get revenged to the Zabi. End up he kills Garma because he can. If Kycilia did not recall Char - an obvious forced plot to bring Char back to the stage, he would be out of the story).

The same can be said for Lelouch. He abandoned the BK to go for his sister at the end of S1. That is totally within his character (thus not a plot hole) but he was bashed on message board.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. I find that people are just as forgiving of plot holes now as they ever were. Oh, they may bring up the plot holes, but it generally won't stop people from viewing a hit anime as "awesome" or "great" or a "classic" inspite of those plot holes.

Use Code Geass vs the original gundam trilogy as an example. I think both have equal amount of plot holes (zero requiem had been debate to death on the CG board, to me, ZR make as much sense as dropping axis on Earth), but the original gundam trilogy are more famed because people nowadays are less forgivable for plot holes.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Look, the people who are suggesting remakes (including myself) are not necessarily saying that older pre-2000s anime are better than what we have today or recently. What I'm saying is that the great animes of past decades have a distinct character and feel compared to the great animes of today.

It's not that the great animes of recent times aren't great; it's that they're often great in different ways from the great animes of past decades. The pros and cons are often different, and this can make a difference for certain anime viewers (i.e. the cons of the modern greats may bother certain anime fans moreso than the cons of older greats).

Nobody is saying that these remakes should take the place of the modern Bakemonogataris or Durararas or any anime really; rather, that maybe they'd be a nice complimentary addition to what we already have.

I agree that anime back in the days are great in different ways. I guess the question is whether audience nowadays are willing to go through the weakness of classic anime (slower plot) in order to get the good stuff (character development).

[janipani]

I hope in future Anime and Manga takes more liberated track what comes to art and writing style. What I mean by this, is that some stories just doesn't fit in with most recent art desings, but ares still used together, because anime has to look recent, to be popular. And that's a shame.

It's little bit like with architecture. No matter how much better some old style would look in some places, architects tend to desing something that looks as recent as possible.

For example I have noticed that novadays harem anime tends to draw even cuter and childlike characters. Why? This together with still having those accidental ecchi scenes just makes it even more awkward. I have to say that if this goes on anime will soon be banned entirely in all western countries.

I don't know is that a trend or anime fan base just changed, but I think cute face dolls doesn't fit in romance, serious or not. But that's what they are today.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by janipani

I have to say that if this goes on anime will soon be banned entirely in all most conservative western countries.

Fixed for more accuracy. My country is clearly not conservative when Bible Black is sitting next to Card Captor Sakura and Code Geass DVD boxes, in a mainstream store.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by janipani

For example I have noticed that novadays harem anime tends to draw even cuter and childlike characters. Why? This together with still having those accidental ecchi scenes just makes it even more awkward. I have to say that if this goes on anime will soon be banned entirely in all western countries.

I don't know is that a trend or anime fan base just changed, but I think cute face dolls doesn't fit in romance, serious or not. But that's what they are today.

Eh, I tend to find modern bishoujo anime character cute but I rarely think of them as looking child like. Then again, I also go for cute faced 18-early 20s girls in real life and always find it surprising when people say they look like they're 14 or so.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not that the great animes of recent times aren't great; it's that they're often great in different ways from the great animes of past decades. The pros and cons are often different, and this can make a difference for certain anime viewers (i.e. the cons of the modern greats may bother certain anime fans moreso than the cons of older greats).

I know almost EVERYONE here will disagree with me on this one, but I'll say it anyway. I AM bothered by how anime writers have to compile the story in either a 13 and 26 episode series, OR at least make it such that it can be put in seasons of 13 and 26 episodes. I might be wrong, and I'm probably never gonna hear the end of this, but I actually think it's affecting the plot progresses, the endings, and lots of other important factors that go in the process of making an anime series. Back when everyone had the chance to let the stories progress and mature properly, albeit filler episodes were even worse than they are todat (probably), but at least those 56 and 64 episode series had much nicer stories with plot progress that made alot more sense than some of today's anime series.

EDIT: I'll have to say though, I'm abit biased when it comes to series' lengths' discussions .. to me the longer the show is, the more I spend time living with its story and characters, and thus the more I get attached to it. And no matter how good a story is, AND was told, if our entire relationship lasted for only a couple of hours (a movie, or a 13 episode series), or a couple of days (a 26 episode series), I'm afraid it's significance (sorry, best word I could find) will fade away in the corners of my memory just as quick. So long as I didn't have to watch it streaming (I bilieve is the term used for poeple who watch anime on weekly basis while still airing?) of course !!!

lol have NO idea what Bleach and Naruto fans been doing to keep going at it for .. 10 years ?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Nobody is saying that these remakes should take the place of the modern Bakemonogataris or Durararas or any anime really; rather, that maybe they'd be a nice complimentary addition to what we already have.

Thank you !

Originally Posted by Sheba

Fixed for more accuracy. My country is clearly not conservative when Bible Black is sitting next to Card Captor Sakura and Code Geass DVD boxes, in a mainstream store.

lol tell me about it, France was where I first learned of the existance of "Adult Cartoons". I was 12 and didn't get what kind of "Cartoon" has a video cover picture of a nearly naked woman in a wierd leather suit standing with her high heals on the backs of 3 naked young girls heh.... Oh and the video was right next to the Grave of the Fireflies or Street Fighter (can't remember) that I was looking for.

[roriconfan]

I made some stats again with anime that count as good according to the year they were made.

Spoiler for wall of list:

(L) = Likable series for the time it was made. But nothing great anymore.
(G) = Good series for the time it was made but not so great anymore.
(M) = Masterpiece than even now stands amongst the best anime have to offer.
(R) = I made a review about it.
And just for the heck of it, I will have a total of “points” for each year, where each L gets 1 point, each G gets 3 points, and each M gets 10 points. So off we go.

1945 (L-0, G-1, M-0) (3 points)
(G) Momotaro - Divine Soldiers of the Sea - first high budget animated film (blunt propaganda; I say Area 88 is all this sort of movies should ever be) (R)

1963 (L-0, G-2, M-0) (6 points)
(G) Astro Boy – first Mecha title (turned obsolete by Ghost in the Shell) (R)
(G) Gigantor (Tetsujin 28) – first man-machine cooperation (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks) (R)

1964 (L-1, G-0, M-0) (1 point)
(L) Kimba the White Lion (R)

1966 (L-1, G-1, M-0) (4 points)

(L) Cyborg 009 – This is sort of the grandfather of Kamen Rider. Same premise but with less context. Well, both are made by Ishinomori Shoutarou, who had the bad habit of reusing 99% of the same storyline in his works. Plus, nobody cared back then, so it was fine. Still, this anime had no chance next to Astro Boys’ far richer characterization. And as I said, it was soon scrapped for the Kamen Rider franchise.

(G) Mahou Tsukai Sally – first Mahou Shoujo title (modern Mahout Shoujo are far more interesting)

1967 (L-0, G-2, M-0) (6 points)
(G) Princess Knight (Ribbon no Kishi) – first gender confusion title (turned obsolete by Utena)
(G) Speed Racer (Go Go Go) – first Sports anime (turned obsolete by Initial D) (R)

1968 (L-0, G-1, M-0) (3 points)
(G) Gegege no Kitarou – first horror (modern horror anime are far more interesting)

1970 (L-0, G-1, M-0) (3 points)
(G) Ashita no Joe – successful Sports title (turned obsolete by Hajime no Ippo)

1971 (L-0, G-1, M-0) (3 points)
(G) Lupin the Third – first Action/Adventure (One Piece has the same and more fun than this)

1972 (L-1, G-2, M-0) (7 points)
(G) Gatchaman – first use of the 5 member sentai team (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks) (R)
(G) Mazinger Z – first piloted Mecha title (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks)
(L) Devilman (R)

1973 (L-1, G-2, M-0) (7 points)
(G) Doraemon – successful children’s series (nothing bad about it but it’s damn too simplistic)
(G) Cutey Honey – first multi-genre title (still good although the ecchi plague of the late 00’s make it look simple)
(L) Kannashimi no Belladonna (R)

1974 (L-0, G-3, M-0) (9 points)
(G) Alps no Shoujo Heidi – great historical drama (not bad but historical social dramas are out of fashion) (R)
(G) Getter Robo – first transforming Mecha title (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks)
(G) Star Blazers (Battleship Yamato) – first Space Opera (turned obsolete by Legend of Galactic Heroes) (R)

1975 (L-0, G-1, M-0) (3 points)
(G) UFO Robo Grendizer – first dramatic backdrop in Mecha title (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks)

1976 (L-0, G-1, M-0) (3 points)
(G) Candy Candy – great historical drama (not bad but historical social dramas are out of fashion) (R)

1977 (L-1, G-1, M-0) (4 points)
(G) Voltes V – first «full» Mecha title (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks)
(L) Dinosaur Wars Eisenborg (R)

1978 (L-0, G-2, M-0) (6 points)
(G) Captain Harlock – great Space Opera (turned obsolete by Legend of Galactic Heroes and One Piece)
(G) Galaxy Express 999 – great Space Opera (turned obsolete by Legend of Galactic Heroes and Kaiba)

1979 (L-2, G-2, M-0) (8 points)
(G) Rose of Versailles – first dynamic female character in Shoujo anime (turned obsolete by Utena)
(G) Gundam 0079 – first mature Mecha title (turned obsolete by Legend of Galactic Heroes) (R)
(L) Thundersub (R)
(L) The Ultraman (R)

1980 (L-1, G-1, M-0) (4 points)
(G) Densetsu Kyojin Ideon – first psychological Mecha title (turned obsolete by Neon Genesis Evagelion) (R)
(L) Wonderful Adventures of Nils (R)

1981 (L-3, G-1, M-0) (6 points)
(G) Urusei Yatsura – great slapstick school comedy (still good, albeit storyless comedies have become tiresome to a great extend in the latest years and the need for overall plot becomes more and more demanding even in comedies) (R)
(L) Voltron (R)
(L) Sea Prince and the Fire Child (R)
(L) Ulysses 31 (R)

1982 (L-4, G-1, M-0) (7 points)
(G) Super Dimensional Fortress Macross – great space adventure (albeit it looks way too naïve today)
(L) Andromeda Stories (R)
(L) Once Upon a Time Was the Space (R)
(L) Future War 198X-nen (R)

(L) The Mysterious Cities of Gold – Back then this was a major adventure series, combining good action with mystery and likable characters. It probably feels generic now and especially if you have watched lots of Duck Tales or One Piece.

1983 (L-6, G-2, M-0) (12 points)
(G) Armored Trooper Votoms – first Real Robots title (too grim and low on action for most to care but it has its charm)
(G) Barefoot Gen – great anti-war movie (turned obsolete by Grave of the Fireflies) (R)
(L) Plawres Sanshirou (R)
(L) Super Dimension Century Orguss (R)
(L) Genesis Climber Mospeada (R)
(L) Igano Kabamaru (R)
(L) Dallos (R)

(L) Ginga Hyouryuu Vifam (R) – Ok, this is amongst the very few retro anime I still really want to watch and yet can’t find anywhere. It’s either too bad or too forgotten.

1984 (L-6, G-2, M-1) (22 points)
(M) Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind – great angsty movie (still stands strong)
(G) Transformers – first non-piloted Mecha title (Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann has everything this lacks) (R)
(G) Fist of the North Star (Hokuto no Ken) – first Fighting Shounen title (it still looks great and original but does grow tiresome in the second part of the series) (R)
(L) Shounen Keniya (R)
(L) Locke the Superman (R)
(L) Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross (R)
(L) Birth (R)
(L) Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs (R)

(L) Video Senshi Lezarion – Quite interesting back then. Although a typical giant mecha in its core, it had many interesting concepts that made it look a lot more serious than the norm. The villains were in fact exiled humans that wanted to take revenge, the Earth government were assholes, the lead mecha was coming out of a computer, the hero’s family was in constant danger by the battles. I hardly remember the whole deal but it was very good back then. But it probably feels average today, if you have watched many Gundam shows.

1985 (L-0, G-2, M-1) (16 points)
(M) Area 88 – great War Drama title (still stands strong) (R)
(G) Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam – great Mecha title (the sequel to Gundam 0079 but still turned obsolete by Legend of Galactic Heroes)
(G) Touch – great Slice of Life title (turned obsolete by Cross Game)

1986 (L-7, G-2, M-1) (23 points)
(M) Dragon Ball – successful Fighting Shounen title (still stands strong)
(G) Saint Saiya – archetype for all following Fighting Shounen titles (modern Fighting Shounen are far more interesting) (R)
(G) Maison Ikkoku – great Slice of Life title (not bad but looks damn slow and crude by today’s standards)
(L) Once Upon a Time... Life (R)
(L) Windaria (R)
(L) Gall Force: Eternal Story (R)
(L) Nayuta (R)
(L) The Transformers: The Movie (R)
(L) Guyver: Out of Control (R)

(L) They Were Eleven! – This is an early work of space opera / drama and it focuses on character interaction rather than visuals or action. It is considered very good as a retro title but I found it short and dull.

1987 (L-2, G-2, M-0) (8 points)
(G) City Hunter – first Urban/Mystery title (turned obsolete by Cowboy Bebop)
(G) Urotsukidoji – archetype for all following rape hentai (almost nobody likes tentacles anymore, lol)
(L) Bubblegum Crisis (R)

(L) Kimagure Orange Road – Another one of those romantic comedies of the 80’s that made some appeal. Plus, this one had espers in it. It otherwise was following the usual formula of almost zero-progress and frozen development.

1988 (L-2, G-1, M-4) (45 points)
(M) Gunbuster (still stands strong)
(M) Legend of the Galactic Heroes – best Space Opera (still stands strong)
(M) Grave of the Fireflies – great anti-war movie (still stands strong)
(M) Akira – great angsty/action movie (still stands strong, although the manga is far better)
(G) Mobile Police Patlabor – interesting Sci-fi/Comedy (turned obsolete by Ghost in the Shell)
(L) Vampire Princess Miyu (R)
(L) Crying Freeman (R)

1989 (L-5, G-0, M-1) (15 points)
(M) Dragon Ball Z – great Fighting Shounen title (still stands strong) (R)
(L) Adventures of Peter Pan (R)
(L) Alfred J. Quack (R)
(L) Ranma ½ (R)

(L) Kiki`s Delivery Service – It’s a Ghibli film and it has a flying witch girl in it. Need I say more? Simple but elegant.

(L) Yawara! – Yet another one of those romantic comedies of the 80’s that made some appeal. It’s about judo and it’s still almost zero-progress and frozen development.

1990 (L-3, G-0, M-1) (13 points)
(M) Record of Lodoss War – best High Fantasy title (still stands strong but it’s corny as hell)
(L) Samurai Pizza Cats (R)
(L) Nadia: Secret of Blue Water (R)
(L) Robin Hood no Daibouken (R)

1990 (L-3, G-0, M-0) (3 points)
(L) 3x3 Eyes (R)
(L) Yokoyama Mitsuteru Sangokushi (R)

(L) Otaku no Video – One of the earliest otaku culture anime. Sort of a documentary on the growing number of otakus, this short series was in order to show how some people really loved anime. It also has a story of sorts but it’s just there for the heck of it.

1992 (L-7, G-0, M-1) (17 points)
(M) Sailor Moon – archetype for all following Mahou Shoujo (still stands strong) (R)
(L) Tekkaman Blade (R)

(L) Shoujo Tsubaki – a horror / erotic film, made by an independed mangaka. Very disturbing imagery for its time.

(L) La Blue Girl – Although Urotsukidoji promoted the raping tentacles fuss, it was still very disgusting for most. Then came La Blue Girl with its comical ninja girls and extreme fetishes and things started to look nice.

(L) Porco Rosso – Another good Miyazaki film. Will be surpassed only when pigs fly. Hey wait …

(L) Bastard!! – A pumped up on action and fantasy short OVA series. The manga is of course better.

(L) Yu Yu Hakusho – Before Bleach, there was Hakusho to show ghosts beating the crap out of each other.

(L) Tenchi Muyo! – The first harem comedy that became a major hit at its prime. I personally found it snoringly average.

1993 (L-5, G-1, M-1) (18 points)
(M) Slam Dunk – great Sports/Comedy title (still stands strong)
(G) Ninja Scroll – great action/gore movie (its gore is no longer that likable plus Sword of the Stranger is far more mature)
(L) Irresponsible Captain Tylor (R)
(L) Dragon Half (R)

(L) JoJo`s Bizarre Adventure – A dark fighting shounen that was good back then but feels very simplistic today.

(L) Please Save My Earth – Romance sci-fi around love that transcends time. It is mostly good as a concept, since it covers only a small part of the manga.

(L) Black Jack – Another one of Tezuka’s old hits became an anime and it’s about a grim surgeon.

1994 (L-11, G-0, M-0) (11 points)
(L) Mobile Fighter G Gundam (R)
(L) Red Riding Hood Chacha (R)
(L) Pom Poko (R)
(L) Mahoujin Guru Guru (R)
(L) Magic Knight Rayearth (R)
(L) Key the Metal Idol (R)

(L) Plastic Little – Small silly adventure with lots of erotic innuendoes. Makes a big impression with its fast pace and great animation.

(L) Genocyber – Practically good for the first OVA only, as it has a huge amount of nudity and gore.

(L) Street Fighter II: The Animated Movie – Weak story and characters but it’s a decent take on a game adaptation.

(L) Blue Seed – A rather good action shounen for its time but feels poor by today.

(L) Fencer of Minerva – Softcore hentai with decent story and cast in a fantasy setting.

1995 1994 (L-4, G-2, M-1) (20 points)
(M) Neon Genesis Evangelion – great psychological/Mecha title (still stands strong)
(G) Gundam Wing – nice Mecha title (turned obsolete by Gundam 00)
(G) Slayers – great action/fantasy title (funny but is no longer that appealing because of its episodic nature and weak plot) (R)
(L) Dino Adventure Jurassic Tripper (R)
(L) El Hazard: The Magnificent World (R)

(L) Ping Pong Club – Zany erotic comedy.

(L) Golden Boy – Zany erotic comedy... again.

1996 (L-1, G-0, M-4) (41 points)
(M) Ghost in the Shell – great psychological/Sci-fi movie (still stands strong)
(M) Rurouni Kenshin – great action/adventure title (still stands strong but gets really lame in the second half) (R)
(M) Gundam 08th MS Team – great War Drama/Real Robots title (still stands strong; it even has ties with the original timeline)
(M) Vision of Escaflowne – great fantasy title (still stands strong) (R)
(L) Martian Successor Nadesico (R)

1997 (L-5, G-1, M-4) (48 points)
(M) GaoGaiGar – great Super Robots title (still stands strong although very few still remember it)
(M) Princess Mononoke – great angsty movie (still stands strong)
(M) Berserk – great Dark Fantasy title (still stands strong although the ending is ARGH)
(M) Revolutionary Girl Utena – great psychological/Yuri title (still stands strong)
(G) Pokemon – famous toy promoting/commercial title (still kicks around although very few still watch it, lol)
(L) Haunted Junction (R)
(L) Maze Megaburst Space (R)
(L) Aika (R)

(L) Flame of Recca – Before Naruto, there was Recca. And it is rather simple in story but has many action scenes.

(L) Photon: The Idiot Adventures – Comedy sci-fi at its best.

1998 (L-2, G-3, M-5) (61 points)
(M) Card Captor Sakura – famous Moe/Mahou Shoujo title (still stands strong) (R)
(M) Initial D – famous racing title (still stands strong)
(M) Serial Experiments Lain – great psychological/Sci-fi title (still stands strong, although most just don’t get it)
(M) Cowboy Bebop – good action/adventure title (still stands strong, although I prefer Samurai Champloo to these space cowboys with blues music)
(M) Perfect Blue – great psychological thriller movie (still stands strong)
(G) Trigun – good action/adventure title (turned obsolete by Cowboy Bebop and One Piece)
(G) His and Her Circumstances (Kare Kano) – good Slice of Life/romance/psychological title (not bad but the second half sucks)

(G) Master Keaton – An episodic adventure of an explorer/detective. Many consider it a masterpiece but I just don’t see anything special in it. But I will admit it was very mature for its age.
(L) Blue Submarine No.6 (R)

(L) Outlaw Star – A classic space adventure but doesn’t look like much today.

1999 (L-5, G-2, M-9) (101 points)
(M) Digimon – famous toy promoting/commercial title (still stands strong, although it gets really silly after awhile) (R)
(M) One Piece – great action/adventure title (still stands strong)
(M) Turn A Gundam – good psychological/Mecha title (most don’t like it but it’s a great one) (R)
(M) Betterman – good psychological/Mecha title (most don’t like it but it’s a great one) (R)
(M) Blue Gender – good psychological/Mecha title (most forgot it but it’s good if you can stand the slow plot)
(M) Crest of the Stars (Sekai no Senki) – great Space Opera title (still stands strong but loses objective later on)
(M) Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal – great action/drama movie (still stands strong)
(M) Great Teacher Onizuka – great comedy title (still stands strong)
(M) Excel Saga – great anime parody title (still stands strong)
(G) Hunter X Hunter – good action/adventure title (turned obsolete by One Piece … what is the objective in this series again?) (R)
(G) Di Gi Charat – good Slapstick title (not bad but nothing great either)
(L) Reign: The Conqueror (R)

(L) Black Heaven – A funny comedy / adventure with an ex hard rocker.

(L) Infinite Ryvius – Drama / sci-fi with lost kids in space. Kinda corny and full of forced drama but has its charm.

(L) The Big O – Film noir plus mystery and mecha. Nice atmosphere but too episodic.

(L) Now and Then, Here and There – War drama with kids. Very forced drama but has its charm.

2000 (L-4, G-2, M-8) (90 points)
(M) Love Hina – great Harem title (still stands strong)
(M) Hajime no Ippo – great Boxing title (still stands strong)
(M) InuYasha – good action/adventure title (still stands strong, although it becomes tiresome because of the fillers) (R)
(M) Brigadoon – good psychological/Mecha title (most forgot it but it’s good if you can stand the weird plot) (R)
(M) VanDread – good Ecchi/Mecha title (most forgot it but it’s good if you can stand the bad CGI)
(M) Argento Soma – good psychological/Mecha title (most forgot it but it’s rather good and it’s not a NGE clone as some think) (R)
(G) FLCL – great anime parody title (I prefer Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann or even RE: Cutey Honey to this)
(G) Yu-Gi-Oh! – famous toy promoting/commercial title (still stands strong although it’s completely stupid) (R)

(L) Gate Keepers – Nice shounen adventure which was great back then but feels completely generic today.

(L) Ceres, Celestial Legend – Very corny romance and forced drama but interesting story.

(L) Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade – A grim story about a dystopian fascist society.

(L) Sousei Seiki Devadasy – An attempt to make a more erotic version of Neon Genesis but with bad directing.

Frome here on most titles are famous already and their importance is blurry so I will not bother adding descriptions for newer entries.

2001 (L-9, G-7, M-2) (50 points)
(M) Hikaru no Go – great toy promoting/commercial title
(M) Bible Black – great Hentai title
(G) Rahxephon – good psychological/Mecha title

(G) Digimon Tamers
(G) Soul Taker
(G) Vampire Hunter D – Bloodlust
(G) R.O.D - Read or Die
(G) Spirited Away
(G) Millennium Actress
(L) Arjuna
(L) Hare+Guu
(L) Noir
(L) Figure 17
(L) s-CRY-ed
(L) Shaman King
(L) Fruits Basket
(L) X (2001)
(L) The Prince of Tennis

2002 (L-0, G-11, M-5) (88 points)
(M) Full Moon – great Slice of Life/Mahou Shoujo title
(M) Princess Tutu – great Mahou Shoujo title
(M) The Twelve Kingdoms – great Fantasy/adventure title
(M) Chobits – good psychological/Ecchi title
(M) Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(G).hack//SIGN – good psychological/Sci-fi title
(G) Azumanga Daioh – great Slapstick title
(G) Naruto – famous Fighting Shounen title
(G) Saikano – good angsty title
(G) Gundam SEED – famous Mecha title

(G) Abenobashi
(G) Yukikaze
(G) Haibane-Renmei
(G) Macross Zero
(G) RahXephon
(G) Voices of a Distant Star

2003 (L-1, G-11, M-2) (54 points)
(M) Kaleido Star – good Coming of Age title
(M) Planetes – good Slice of Life/Sci-fi title
(G) Texhnolyze – good psychological/Sci-fi title
(G) Wolf`s Rain – good psychological/adventure title
(G) Gungrave – good psychological/adventure title
(G) The Animatrix – good psychological/Sci-fi title

(G) Last Exile
(G) Scrapped Princess
(G) Tokyo Godfathers
(G) Gunslinger Girl
(G) Boboboubo Boubobo
(G) Chrono Crusade
(G) Paranoia Agent
(L) Narutaru

2004 (L-1, G-10, M-6) (91 points)
(M) Genshiken – great Slice of Life/Otaku Culture title
(M) Monster – great psychological/mystery title
(M) Gankutsuou The Count of Monte Cristo – good fantasy/action title
(M) Mind Game – great psychological movie
(M) Samurai Champloo – great action/adventure title
(M) Gunbuster 2
(G) Beck – good Slice of Life/music title
(G) Elfen Lied – famous psychological/gore title

(G) The Melody of Oblivion
(G) Le Portrait de Petite Cossette
(G) Re:Cutie Honey
(G) Gantz
(G) Fantastic Children
(G) Rozen Maiden
(G) Howl`s Moving Castle
(G) Samurai 7
(L) Bleach – famous Fighting Shounen title

2005 (L-5, G-5, M-5) (91 points)
(M) Akagi – good gamble title (M) Paradise Kiss – good mature romance title
(M) Speed Grapher – great psychological/action title
(M) Mushi-Shi – great psychological/mystery title
(M) Aria – great fantasy/Slice of Life title
(M) Pale Cocoon
(G) Eureka Seven – good adventure/Mecha title
(G) Ah! My Goddess – great fantasy/comedy/Ecchi title

(G) Starship Operators
(G) Honey and Clover
(G) Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
(L) Shakugan no Shana – good fantasy/romance/action title
(L) Fate/stay night – good fantasy/romance/action title
(L) Air
(L) Basilisk
(L) The Law of Ueki
(L) Usavich
(L) Ayakashi - Samurai Horror Tales

2006 (L-20, G-7, M-9) (121 points)
(M) Zegapain – great psychological/Mecha title
(M) Welcome to the N.H.K – great Slice of Life/Otaku Culture title
(M) The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya – good Slice of Life/Sci-fi/comedy title
(M) Higurashi – good psychological thriller title
(M) Nana – good mature romance title
(M) The Girl Who Leapt Through Time – great Fantasy movie
(M) Death Note – great Thriller/Mystery title
(M) Ergo Proxy – great psychological/adventure/sci-fi title
(G) Hellsing – great action/gore title
(G) Code Geass – famous multi-genre title
(G) Black Lagoon – good Chicks with Guns title
(G) Kanon – good romance title
(G) Ouran High School Host Club – good Reverse Haremtitle

(G) Paprika
(G) The Story of Saiunkoku
(G) Flag
(L) Gintama – famous anime parody
(L) xxxHOLiC – famous fanstasy/mystery title
(L) Utawarerumono
(L) Air Gear
(L) Magical Pokaan
(L) Oban Star-Racers
(L) Planet of the Beast King
(L) Aachi wa Ssipak
(L) Le Chevalier D`Eon
(L) Kemonozume
(L) D.Gray-Man
(L) Pumpkin Scissors
(L) Ghost Hunt
(L) Shonen Onmyouji
(L) Buso Renkin
(L) 009-1
(L) Katekyo Hitman Reborn!
(L) KenIchi: The Mightiest Disciple
(L) Bartender
(L) Strain: Strategic Armored Infantry

2007 (L-8, G-4, M-14) (160 points)
(M) Nodame Cantabile – good Slice of Life title
(M) Gyakkyou Burai Kaiji
(M) Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
(M) Clannad
(M) 5cm Per Second
(M) Ef - a Tale of Memories
(M) Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei
(M) Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit
(M) Terra e...
(M) Dennou Coil
(M) Mononoke
(M) Baccano!
(M) Kara no Kyoukai: The Garden of Sinners
(M) Rebuild of Evangelion
(G) Claymore
(G) Sword of the Stranger
(G) Gundam 00
(G) Lucky Star

(L) Romeo x Juliet
(L) Darker than Black
(L) Bokura no
(L) School Days
(L) Potemayo
(L) Shigurui
(L) Minami-ke
(L) Macross F

2008 (L-7, G-7, M-4) (68 points)
(M) Detroit Metal City
(M) Kaiba
(M) Time of Eve
(M) La Maison en Petits Cubes
(G) One Outs
(G) Xam`d: Lost Memories
(G) Michiko to Hatchin
(G) True Tears
(G) Casshern Sins
(G) Chi`s Sweet Home
(G) Soul Eater
(L) The Tower of Druaga

(L) Toradora!
(L) Spice and Wolf
(L) Allison to Lillia
(L) The Sky Crawlers
(L) Tentai Senshi Sunred
(L) Toaru Majutsu no Index

2009 (L-5, G-3, M-3) (44 points)
(M) K-On!
(M) Bakemonogatari
(M) Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
(G) Kuuchuu Buranko
(G) Cross Game

(G) Kimi ni Todoke
(L) Guin Saga
(L) Kemono no Souja Erin
(L) Sengoku Basara
(L) Eden of the East
(L) Fairy Tail

So according to the following graph, we have these results:


The Yellow bars are the Likable number of titles per year, Orange are the Good ones and Brawn (Red didn’t look so good so I changed it to brawn) show the Masterpieces.

The bar on the top shows with colours how good the year was, based on the points it got

000-030 points = Bad year (marked with white square)
031-060 points = Poor year (marked with blue square)
061-090 points = Average year (marked with green square)
091-120 points = Good year (marked with yellow square)
121-150 points = Very good year (marked with orange square)
151-180 points = Amazing year (marked with brawn square)

And what does this tells us?

Anime up until 1995 had very underwhelming industry. The few good series produced up to then were not enough to deem the field as interesting. Of course there is also 1988 which was much more interesting production-wise and to be honest it was the year most of my age got hooked into them (as did I).

After 1995 (Neon Genesis turning point) anime begin being much more mainstream a lot more interesting works are produced annually. 1999 (Digimon, GTO, HxH era) and 2007 (Code Geass, Haruhi, Death Note era) are by far the most productive and quality-wise years.

After 2007, anime quality drops almost vertically. Most recent series are uninspired fan service. Such a shame!

[FlavorOfLife]

Taiyou no Kiba and Crusher Joe is poor?

Modern anime definitely looks better. Storywise, i get this feeling that it more and more constrained by political correctness though fan service is being pushed higher.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Taiyou no Kiba and Crusher Joe is poor?

Whom are you asking?

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Storywise, i get this feeling that it more and more constrained by political correctness

That is not true.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Whom are you asking?

You, since you formed that table

Originally Posted by roriconfan

That is not true.

Sorry i thought i would know my own feeling better than you. I guess i was wrong then

[0utf0xZer0]

Macross F should probably be a 2008 show, as only a single episode preview aired in 2007. The rest aired from April to September 2008.

Anyway,while I agree that we've seen less good shows the last year or two, I don't think the drop off is as severe as those statistics show. Just going through my "top five" for 2008 and 2009, at least 60% of them aren't on that list. In two cases (Spice and Wolf II and EF: A Tale of Melodies), this seems to be related to not listing sequels, in other cases like Kure-nai I get the impression it's just a lack of the show being known despite good word of mouth.

The way I see it, the main reason for the drop is mainly that we're in a market contraction phase right now. A lot of shows aired in 2006 and 2007... and a lot of them experienced very poor DVD sales. I've seen less shows get really poor sales the past year or two, which tends to suggest to me that there was a market saturation issue. Combined with a general downward trend in viewership for more mainstream shows that rely on TV audiences, I don't think it should come as any surprise that production companies are cutting back on production.

This issue is made worse by the fact that people who want well written shows are harder to please than fanservice fans. I actually thought EF: A Tale of Melodies and Umineko no Naku Koro Ni were pretty damn good, but the two shows were poorly received among people familiar with the source material, and the sales numbers reflect that (EF: A Tale of Memories got a far better reception from fans and far better sales). I guess what that really says about anime is that it's not like Hollywood where you want to target mainstream fans even if you're working with a "geek franchise": when adapting something known for its storyline into anime, you have to please the hardcore fanbase, and they're not very forgiving. Tends to make such shows targets for cutbacks in production.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

You, since you formed that table

I have no idea if those shows are good or if they have the slightest historical value, if they were smash hits, or damn enjoyable. Because all these years of being a fan, this is the very first time someone asks me of those titles. So I had no info or fandom to include them.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Sorry i thought i would know my own feeling better than you. I guess i was wrong then

Fan service and homo alusions are 1000% higher than in the past. That does not sound politically correct to me.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Macross F should probably be a 2008 show, as only a single episode preview aired in 2007. The rest aired from April to September 2008.

The air dates I got wrote 2007. And it doesn't matter much.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

my "top five" for 2008 and 2009, at least 60% of them aren't on that list.

Well it's a slightly biased list, especially since recent anime are still blurry to judge. Which ones are you refering to ?

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

In two cases (Spice and Wolf II and EF: A Tale of Melodies), this seems to be related to not listing sequels

True. If I had to include all sequels of all shows, I would also had to include series that last for years or give one and half points for those lasting a year and a half. It would kill me to do all that. The list is about original titles to the most part.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

in other cases like Kure-nai I get the impression it's just a lack of the show being known despite good word of mouth.

Sorry, it left too few followers behind and it's been only a few years since then. I desided not to add it. And yes, I wasn't thrilled about it either.

[Inactive]

Sorry, I'll be gross but... I read all this thread & not found any oldschool fans here (except riderman), only bunch of big-talking trash-eaters that doesn't know anything about old & good. If you're watched Gu-Gu Ganmo in your young years it doesn't give you a right to sling dirt to whole epoches. Nobody knows about Mazinger? It was brodcasted all over the world, had millions of viewers, get 6 sequels; episode 68, broadcast March 17, 1974, achieved the series' highest rating of 30.4%, making Mazinger Z one of the highest-rated anime series of all time. Astro Boy turned obsolete by Ghost in the Shell? First mecha?! "Warrior of Science coming to New York" (1944) was a first mecha. Ashita no Joe – successful Sports title? It's a life drama, silly! Doraemon – damn too simplistic? How you dare? You never watched! It's famous for its creative ideas in each ep, sometyimes mystical or philosophical. Lupin the Third vs One Piece?! No comments! Ok, this is enough to make a cat laugh.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Inactive

Sorry, I'll be gross but... I read all this thread & not found any oldschool fans here (except riderman), only bunch of big-talking trash-eaters that doesn't know anything about old & good. If you're watched Gu-Gu Ganmo in your young years it doesn't give you a right to sling dirt to whole epoches. Nobody knows about Mazinger? It was brodcasted all over the world, had millions of viewers, get 6 sequels; episode 68, broadcast March 17, 1974, achieved the series' highest rating of 30.4%, making Mazinger Z one of the highest-rated anime series of all time. Astro Boy turned obsolete by Ghost in the Shell? First mecha?! "Warrior of Science coming to New York" (1944) was a first mecha. Ashita no Joe – successful Sports title? It's a life drama, silly! Doraemon – damn too simplistic? How you dare? You never watched! It's famous for its creative ideas in each ep, sometyimes mystical or philosophical. Lupin the Third vs One Piece?! No comments! Ok, this is enough to make a cat laugh.

Going by your reasoning, only Vexx and Seiji-sensei, or anyone who was alive during the mute movie era, have the right to call themselves veterans. And considering the age average on Asuki, that is ridiculous.

Also, your wording and the way you sound so opinionated and arrogant is honestly NOT helping you.

Reread what you just said, swallow that humble pie because you need it, look at the shows you just trashed (One Piece and Ghost in The Shell to name two) and try to understand WHY and HOW they caught the fans in, because being new and shiny have NOTHING to do with their merits, and anime like Asobi ni Iku Yo are still trash in despite of their smooth graphics and animation. The common thing between a Berserk that is plagued with still shots to cut corners in the animation department and a Ghost In The Shell Stand Alone Complex that have commited the unforgivable sin to be a Modern Anime is that they both have characters we care for and have stories that are well told and compelling. Something I demand from an anime regardless of the time period it was released.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Inactive

If you're watched Gu-Gu Ganmo in your young years it doesn't give you a right to sling dirt to whole epoches.

I didn't. So everything is ok.

Originally Posted by Inactive

Nobody knows about Mazinger? It was brodcasted all over the world, had millions of viewers, get 6 sequels; episode 68, broadcast March 17, 1974, achieved the series' highest rating of 30.4%, making Mazinger Z one of the highest-rated anime series of all time.

Who implied it is not known?

Originally Posted by Inactive

Astro Boy turned obsolete by Ghost in the Shell?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Inactive

First mecha?! "Warrior of Science coming to New York" (1944) was a first mecha.

Never heard of that title.

Originally Posted by Inactive

Ashita no Joe – successful Sports title? It's a life drama, silly!

Really?

Originally Posted by Inactive

Doraemon – damn too simplistic? How you dare? You never watched! It's famous for its creative ideas in each ep, sometyimes mystical or philosophical.

Creative is one, simple is another.

Originally Posted by Inactive

Lupin the Third vs One Piece?!

Yes.

[colorles]

perspective

[roriconfan]

http://www.anime-evo.net/content/201...-anime-market/

Adding this with the rest, if we don't pay, we can't complain about the current state of anime.

[roriconfan]

So I found a rather old non-linear in plot anime titles Boogiepop Phantom. It created a sensation for a couple of yeras and now is pretty much forgotten by most and has an average score.

And then there is Bacanno! a rather new series that most know and are fans of. The plot is also non-linear but the story is nowhere close to serious as Boogie was. Plus Boogie was dark and grim while Bacanno! was light and wacky.

Are we to say that only cheery titles remain in fashion for more? Modern anime are a lot more optimistic than retro in a way. Less depressing and even more light.