2011-03-02, 17:17 | Link #22141 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Trust me Sherry knows what he's talking about. He was playing the murderer in one of our games at Golden Gameboard and I tried to disarm him and knock him out using nonlethal force and martial arts movie logic. The guy shot me in the fucking chest and metaphorically killed me. Running away, using non-lethal force, etc is an idiot's move when someone's trying to kill you.
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2011-03-02, 19:07 | Link #22143 | |||||
白の魔法使い
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It was circumstantial power of near-insane people who were forced to kill or get killed which drove people to do those things. (I have to admit, germany's a different thing, we're dealing with a near-fictional level of antagonism here.) Quote:
That does define having sympathy for a murderer quite nicely for me. Quote:
Unfortunately it puts you on an equal level more than often though. Quote:
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On a similar note, locking yourself in a closed room is equally bad. Poor Kyrie. Dang it, and here I thought it was torch and pitch-fork time.
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2011-03-02, 19:57 | Link #22144 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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If the murder was questionable, say no one knows who drew the gun first or something, then I can see the family thinking the courts screwed up(as they might have) but I've yet to see a clear self defense case where the murderer's family wanted blood. Unless we are counting mafia families. Quote:
...Wait when did he turn into Jesus? |
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2011-03-03, 04:31 | Link #22147 |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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Lol this is hilarious. I wonder what Sherry thinks about the guy in my siggy.
Also, Sherry, yes, I agree that no cold blooded murders deserves anyone's respect nor sympathy. Though personally, I wouldn't instantly condemn them because I would be curious to why the guy became what he is. I have no respect nor sympathy for Takano but at least I understand why she did what she did. There is a very human reason for every cold-blooded murders out there, at least that is what I believe (hey, humans are the least humane living beings ever so this is just natural for me). One more thing, perhaps it would help to try to differentiate "Murder" from "Kill". Killing your assailant in self-defense doesn't constitute to murder (at least for me), but it is still killing, which is, by description, still a fundamentally wrong thing to do. And, I think(pardon me if I'm wrong) that is what usa'sHaguruma's position in this, yet you view his referring to "killing" in general to specifically "murder". I don't think usaEdit:Haguruma(sorry,sleepy) thinks that a remorseless mass murderer deserved to be respected either...no, he never said that I think. It's just perhaps his view on the matter is in a more pragmatic and broader scope, or at least I view the matter that way.
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Last edited by erneiz_hyde; 2011-03-03 at 04:48. |
2011-03-03, 11:38 | Link #22148 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I think you are looking at the problem at hand in the wrong way.
This isn't about comprehension and sympathy. You can even feel sympathy for a murderer for what I care, I can actually understand that if you are the murderer's father or wife. Even if you aren't related you can still understand the murderer's action if you know their sad background. But all of that is irrelevant. I, personally, am not saying that you must hate the murderer, actually I think it would be better to never hate anyone (although it's not always really possible). We are talking about justice here, it has nothing to do with sympathy, hate or sentiments in general. If someone did something wrong he must take responsibility for his actions, and the first step is recognizing his wrongdoings. Acting otherwise is just escaping from your own responsibility, it isn't going to help anyone, not even the wrongdoer. You killed someone? You had your personal reason you did so? Good, but now turn yourself in. If you had special circumstances then explain those to the jury and the world. The murderer is someone who died long ago? Then someone else in his place should explain what he did and why he did it to the world (as much as that's possible). Talking about comprehension and forgiveness is pointless when the issue at hand is the fact that nothing is known about the true murderer. You can't comprehend nor forgive anyone if you don't know what they did in the first place.
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2011-03-03, 12:01 | Link #22149 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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I guess Umineko is hard to see in such a light unless there is no premeditated murders... and even so... |
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2011-03-03, 12:23 | Link #22150 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well according to Higurashi people aren't really responsible of what they do in L4+ phase.
Anyway even from a juridic standpoint you can plead insanity and that totally fits Satoko's case. Of course there are grey areas, but it's very wrong to assume that the justice system doesn't consider those cases. Come to think about it... Higurashi was also morally questionable... "a friend killed someone, let's help him hide the corpse!" So I guess I shouldn't really be surprised by Umineko...
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2011-03-03, 12:37 | Link #22151 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well at the very least it feels like Ryuukishi doesn't have the greatest trust in the ability of society to help a child like Satoko or Maria.
From personal experience I can also say I find the total trust in the justice system to be rather idealistic. That is be cops, investigators, lawyers or judges... Edit: Also I bought up Satoko because ultimately she wasn't told what she did. It'd be sorta hard to not tell her while having a trial about her. |
2011-03-03, 14:43 | Link #22152 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-03-03, 15:48 | Link #22154 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Bear in mind, it's also the 80s. Even if he doesn't necessarily believe social services are crappy now, back in the 80s with powerful forces influencing them it's entirely possible they would be that ineffective.
Also, while Maria is treated badly and physically hit, it's hard to say that people at that time would've seen it as "abuse." I got slapped in public a few times by my mother and nobody batted an eye. That would certainly be different today. And verbal abuse? I see that even now, and it doesn't seem anyone's rushing to take anybody's kids away. Maria herself doesn't seem to see her life as all bad. You might argue she's hopelessly naive, but she certainly seems to think her mama is great when she's not being bad.
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2011-03-03, 18:31 | Link #22155 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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What he actually said though was: "I don't know how it was in the 58th year of the Showa Era, but the child consultation center is not a mean place like I depicted it in my story. I made the characters look evil, but in reality the government is the number one hero today to us civilians"
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2011-03-03, 19:55 | Link #22156 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Still he did depict them as pretty useless. In arc 4 we're also told the Sumadera are using the cops to get Ange and do... not pretty stuff to her. Then there's people like Kinzo who does things above the law without ever facing legal consequences for them. It might be all for the sake of the fiction but even then, it doesn't seem like Ryuukishi want us to trust the law system within his stories. |
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2011-03-03, 20:05 | Link #22159 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Where you're not.
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Well, Kanon is fundamentally Shannon's "brother," so...
Well, it matters not, now does it? And while I'm at it, it's kind of sad: If Yasu had gone through exactly what her mother went through, she would have probably been named Beatrice or something (unless Lion's existence dictates that can never be possible). And yet she ends up being Beatrice anyway...
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2011-03-03, 21:46 | Link #22160 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Considering the audience that Umineko is for, a name like Yasu screams 'culprit meme' so badly that I'd think that Yasu/Yasuda is kind of a red-herring name.
It seems like people on the English side aren't aware of this meme as much and so a name like Yasu seems 'legit.' I'd rate it on the same level as if Bernkastel named her 'Evil Culprit.' 8) |
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