[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Thunder Book]

I'd assume you'd want more than one survivor.

That makes me wonder what they'll do with the culprit though. Will they kill him? If so, how do they explain it to the rest of the world?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Haven't seen Lost, but that summary sounds like Angel Beats.

Back on topic, since a world requires a minimum of two people, maybe you need two survivors, not one?

Not a bad idea. For occult things there are always things that only the initiates can see and what the common people can't.

For example The hidden mansion on the back side of Rokkenjima is one of those occult like things.

So yeah a survivor and "hidden survivor" your not supposed to know about would make sense in that context. As well as with the idea that you need two people to create a world. Ange rebuked that idea saying it was a lie though.

[Tori626]

Just curious. are we allow o post things on ep.7? I found something VERY interesting and Id like to share it ^_^

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Tori626

Just curious. are we allow o post things on ep.7? I found something VERY interesting and Id like to share it ^_^

That goes in the Spoilers and speculations thread sorry. Nothing after Episode 6 goes here.

Damn we really need a thread for that Episode and fast.

[Tori626]

I agee And thankies! *rushes off to speculations thread*

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Judoh

That goes in the Spoilers and speculations thread sorry. Nothing after Episode 6 goes here.

Damn we really need a thread for that Episode and fast.

Episode threads only appear when the game is released.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Haven't seen Lost, but that summary sounds like Angel Beats.

Back on topic, since a world requires a minimum of two people, maybe you need two survivors, not one?

Angel Beats? I never seen it, I heard of it. -shrug-

I doubt two survivors can happen, you'd get a 10 little cowboys-like scenario near the end I'd probably imagine. I think that's why the married couples are almost always split up in the middle of the murders so it's impossible for a team up. It probably has to be a group of people with the least amount of fatalities possible for a survival. If for instance both Eva and Natsuhi survived to the end of the game, you can probably imagine what would happen. Some people snap near the end of the games, Eva is a prime example of this happening.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Why does every scene have to be written by someone else anyway?

The whole structure of the game, down to the terminology used, makes it seem like a kind of role-playing game. The players can direct their own pieces and narrate about themselves to an extent, but it's the game master who determines what they see, because she's the one who knows what's actually going on.

In that kind of world, it's fine if a player narrates about her own imagination or lies about things, but she can't, say, kill off an NPC without the GM's involvement.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Does that red apply to all games, or just EP4, though?

It had the air of something that applied to the first four games due to the context, but of course I can't really prove that.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Regarding the premise of piece-Featherine, I think it'd be a very, VERY cool twist if it was true. But at the very least, there's something that needs more elaboration first.

Going back to the stem of the argument, which involves Bern as Lambda's piece, why rule out the possibility that Featherine was the GM? This would establish instant consistency with Bern being Featherine's miko, in which case the big question is why Bern says she was trapped in Lambda's world if Featherine was the Game Master. One possibility is pretty simple, though: Featherine lied to her piece. Hardly something difficult for witches to do.

That was my original thinking, but I ran into a problem with Lambda's diary. In there she writes that she basically wanders around at random looking for interesting wishes to grant in hopes of alleviating her boredom. Particularly in the case of the girl who wanted to become a god, Lambda nearly left before hearing the whole proposal and only stuck around on a whim. There wasn't any mention of another witch's involvement at all. That's why I question whether Featherinne was even really involved in that game.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In that kind of world, it's fine if a player narrates about her own imagination or lies about things, but she can't, say, kill off an NPC without the GM's involvement.

You are free to have your own interpretation but all evidences show that it's possible to kill an NPC without the GM knowing.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You are free to have your own interpretation but all evidences show that it's possible to kill an NPC without the GM knowing.

Unless that isn't the case. It's possible to kill a piece without a scene being shown of the person's death (and this has happened even outside of ep6). It is not clear whether or not the GM always knows about it. There is no evidence to suggest that the GM does, but the mere fact the GM appears not to have done so in one very suspect case does not mean it actually is possible to hoodwink the person allegedly writing the story.

If the GM even is writing the story, which is another wholly suspect construction.

[Jan-Poo]

The facts that the GM in EP6 clearly shows to be totally unaware of the fact Erika killed 5 people and later shows to be quite surprised when he learns that are evidences that can't be put in discussion.

The idea that he was merely faking it is an interpretation.
And even if he knew and was faking it, it still wouldn't mean that it's impossible to kill an NPC without the GM knowing, it could be possible that he noticed in another way.

If your position is that it's flat out impossible, then you also need to explain why Erika and Bern were apparently so sure that such a thing was possible.

[Renall]

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it may or may not be possible to fool the GM depending on what the GM's actual powers are. Powers which have never been firmly nailed down and which are clearly not all known (or at least remembered) by Lambda and Bern, as they appear quite surprised by the gold text in ep5 and have to check whether it's actually possible for Battler to do it.

If Lambda and Bern were surprised by a power the GM had, it follows logically that they may not be aware of all the powers the GM has. Especially considering that Lambda seemed a bit surprised by the gold when she was GMing at the time. It is simply possible that one can be the GM and not know what powers one has. So perhaps Lambda and Bern don't believe the GM can see everything going on, and Battler does nothing to contradict it (whether he himself is aware of any such power or not and exercises it or not), but that doesn't really mean Beatrice didn't have that power and I think any coherent reading of ep1-4 suggests she does (or is very good at keeping tabs somehow).

[Jan-Poo]

Wait a sec. Lambda is surprised by the gold? She was surprised that Battler could use it, but certainly she wasn't surprised of its existence. Everything suggests she knows perfectly what the gold truth is. Not only that, but Dlanor herself quite apparently knows what's the gold truth.

As for Beatrice, she never had to deal with a player actively controlling his piece like Erika.

Anyway I said from the beginning that you are free to have your own interpretation. But when you expose your interpretation you should make clear that it's your interpretation and not something that has been shown clearly in the story.

[Renall]

Neither has your interpretation been confirmed. There is literally nothing that says what the GM can and cannot do except powers brought up in isolation and general insinuations about how they must conduct business. There appears to be no coherent pattern to who knows about individual elements of the GM's power and there are no less than a half-dozen meta-individuals who have ulterior motives that might color their decision to reveal what they know about a particular power.

I think people have way too much faith in Bernkastel's infallibility or something, to the point that no character can ever seem to do anything that she can't counter (even though Lambda is clearly hiding things from her and has pulled a few fast ones on her since Chiru started). You'd think by this point in the story everyone would be trying to get around her notice through trickery rather than just playing right into it, but that's essentially the undercurrent I've been sensing since about ep4.

[Jan-Poo]

Mine is not an interpretation is simply an establishment of the evidences.

If you go by that logic coherently you should even claim that the fact that Beatrice loves Battler is just an interpretation.

Sorry but I don't think so. It is possible that many things int his story are just illusions, but the burden to prove something is an illusion lies on you, I have no need to prove that something is exactly how it appears to be.

[m0h]

Remember what Lambda just before Battler used the gold truth? Bern said "it's impossibile, it can't be done!"

Then Lambda said "with red and blue.. right?" and SMILED.

Lambda was pretty aware of the existance of the Gold, she was simply stunned to see that Battler achieved the game master level. She was always pretty sure that Battler was an idiot, and seeing him all powered up in such a small time was surely surprising..

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If your position is that it's flat out impossible, then you also need to explain why Erika and Bern were apparently so sure that such a thing was possible.

Bern has only an imperfect understanding of the principles this territory runs on, and some of her ideas are clearly wrong, based on her reactions at the end of EP5. She didn't even know the golden truth existed up until that point. Additionally, Lambda has been deliberately feeding her bogus information since at least the end of EP4.

EDIT: Whoops, ninja'd by Renall and moh.
---

On an unrelated note, here's something of interest:

Spoiler for EP6 Beatrice creation monologue:

Beatrice, listen.
I'll turn my heart that loves Ushiromiya Battler over to you.
Become the woman Ushiromiya Battler desires.
I'll give you the blonde hair he desires.
I'll give you the blue eyes he desires.
I'll give you a personality suited to him, like he desires.
So... fall in love with him, in my stead.
And, if possible, be loved by him.
I can't... love him anymore.
The feelings I couldn't fulfill... The feelings I couldn't bear...
Please, fulfill them.
From today onward, you are no longer a spirit of Rokkenjima who only plays pranks.
From today onward, you will become the master of this island, and wait for him until the day he returns to fulfill his promise.
From today onward, you will inherit that from me.
So from today onward, you will no longer be me.
Please forgive me for pushing all of my suffering onto you... and becoming happy on my own.
From today onward, you are qualified to hate everything.
From today onward, you are the Golden Witch, Beatrice.
And someday.
You will destroy everything, revive everything.
...And bring blessings to all lovers.
On that day.
...I hope from the bottom of my heart that you and I will be happy.
From today onward, you will no longer be me.
From today onward, I will no longer be you.
Let us split one soul and share it.
Of course, it will be less than a full soul.
But I'm sure you'll show me more dreams than a person would.
May we be blessed....
My dear Beatrice....
Even though no one else will be able to see you,
at least I will be able to.
And you, too, be loved by many different people.
Surely you'll start to become visible to all of them as well.
If we have love, we can see you....

We've all seen the DID interpretation before, but here's a different one. Doesn't this sound an awful lot like someone creating a character that they're going to write about? In other words, the speaker is going to turn the "legend of Beatrice who plays pranks" into a story character who will live out all of her dreams that she couldn't fulfill in real life.

After all, what is writing but giving part of your soul to your characters?

[Jan-Poo]

It doesn't make much difference to me. Is it DID or simply a constructed character?

The fact remain that Beatrice is a fictional persona created for the purpose of loving Battler.

I would also point out that what's said here about the "soul" is exactly the same thing that Zepar and Furfur say about Kanon and Shannon.

In order to create Beatrice this person X had to "split her soul". In the same way Kanon and Shannon are said to do not possess a "whole soul" and therefore one of them needs to die in order for the other to acquire a "full soul" because only a "full soul" is allowed to love.

But then when Shannon wins and Zepar and Furfur say that the scattered souls will now merge into one, not only Kanon's soul vanishes, beatrice's as well, and we know that Beatrice is a split soul from that person X. Zepar and Furfur also say that in case Beatrice lost then Shannon and Kanon would merge in her. Notice that Battler, George and Jessica are totally left out. The soul merge only occur between Beatrice Shannon and Kanon.

[Judoh]

I can't remember who, but I think someone said Shannon said in the love trial that if Kanon would have revealed something he could've won and that Shannon was disappointed in him for that. Any idea what that could be?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

If the GM even is writing the story, which is another wholly suspect construction.

There's one other possibility with a roleplaying game GM in particular. Namely, they could be conducting a prewritten adventure created by someone else, only modifying it if the players actually manage to wreck it.

In practice, in large scale LARPs which include no emulated characters, this is essentially what happens -- once you have set up a script and it's major branches, you can't change it, because it would require issuing GM fiats to something like 20-30 people out of a hundred. Actually getting the script to go off at all takes a tremendous amount of preparatory work on it's own regardless of who wrote it, you basically don't have time to improvise -- and when you do, someone comes along and swipes the plot out from under everyone anyway.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It doesn't make much difference to me. Is it DID or simply a constructed character?

Ah, but there is a huge difference. A constructed character communicated to others can live through them even when you no longer actually have any interest in it.

By basically becoming a meme.