Character Discussion - Kallen

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

We are similarly in the dark about Nina's past. She may have been a different person before, and became the skittish girl we saw because of something like this.

I'd say that it would be a reasonable assumption that she suffered an assault or rape. Not a certainty by any means, but a possibility.

A possibility, yes, but nothing more that that. There is nothing that indicates Nina changed - Milly knew her her whole live, and she never says anything that suggests such a thing.
Some people simply are like Nina. She thinks very lowly of her self - her social status, her appearance, pretty much everything. She's not afraid of men, which I believe someone like her would be if she had been raped. When Lloyd - a complete stranger - suddenly appeared behind her in that one episode, she would probaly have become very, very uneasy. Instead, she was her normal self, and got excited very quickly when he showed interest in what she wad doing. She didn't even flinch when Kannon suddenly hugged her.

If Japanese adults would toss two children, one of whom is an invalid, in a storehouse and stand by and let a 10 year old get kicked in the head by three other kids because he was Britannian, then I'd say it is reasonable to assume that they would be hostile to someone like Kallen. As you say, nothing is known, but there is little case for optimism.

Those adults were bodyguards picked by Genbu Kururugi, who wasn't the nicest guy around. They were also supposed to just stand by if he ever decided to kill the children, or even do the job themselves.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

A possibility, yes, but nothing more that that. There is nothing that indicates Nina changed - Milly knew her her whole live, and she never says anything that suggests such a thing.
Some people simply are like Nina. She thinks very lowly of her self - her social status, her appearance, pretty much everything. She's not afraid of men, which I believe someone like her would be if she had been raped. When Lloyd - a complete stranger - suddenly appeared behind her in that one episode, she would probaly have become very, very uneasy. Instead, she was her normal self, and got excited very quickly when he showed interest in what she wad doing. She didn't even flinch when Kannon suddenly hugged her.

Well again we don't hear enough about Nina's past to say with certainty. As with Kallen, it is possible that Nina could have been slated for some development in the original plans.

As for her reacting to people, she could have fixated on the race of her hypothetical attacker rather than the gender, as well the attack may not have been a full rape, or at all sexual in nature. For all I know, it could have been an attack by a combination of male and female Japanese, or all female. Perhaps it was a mugging or something.

Perhaps, as you say, she's just that timid, but things like this usually (well, usually from the limited shows I have seen) end up having some reason beyond the character being bad. Going along with the attempt to redeem Nina in R2, if it was revealled that her fear was born from a traumatic experience, just like her hate, then that would go towards showing the audience that she was a human rather than a two dimensional bigot.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Those adults were bodyguards picked by Genbu Kururugi, who wasn't the nicest guy around. They were also supposed to just stand by if he ever decided to kill the children, or even do the job themselves.

Nonetheless they are allowing a child to be ganged up on and brutalized. This speaks volumes about Genbu, those he employed, and what the children in question were getting from their parents.

Further, as Lelouch pointed out, what Britannia was doing overtly in conquest, Japan was doing covertly through its economic policy, and things like the Oriental Incident. Also remember that Genbu planned to have Japan fight to the last man, which would ensure the devastation of the country and result in a head on conflict between Britannia and the rival superpowers.

Japan simply did not take kindly to anyone who wasn't Japanese.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Well again we don't hear enough about Nina's past to say with certainty. As with Kallen, it is possible that Nina could have been slated for some development in the original plans.

I still believe we'd have gotten more of a hint in that case, but yeah, you never know. However, rape is not a theme I'd expect to find in Code Geass, especially with Nina not showing any clear signs of having been assaulted in that way.

For all I know, it could have been an attack by a combination of male and female Japanese, or all female. Perhaps it was a mugging or something.

That's much more likely, in my opinion.

Perhaps, as you say, she's just that timid, but things like this usually (well, usually from the limited shows I have seen) end up having some reason beyond the character being bad. Going along with the attempt to redeem Nina in R2, if it was revealled that her fear was born from a traumatic experience, just like her hate, then that would go towards showing the audience that she was a human rather than a two dimensional bigot.

Actually, I think Nina is a very human character as it is. There are a lot of people like her out there - she was afraid of her own shadow and had a very low self-esteem, then got lost in a Japanese Ghetto and as a result feared the Japanese. When she found someone to look up to, someone who gave her confidence in herself, that person was killed - by someone she probably thought was also Japanese.
And then she lost it, only realizing her mistakes much later.

This does not make her the most likeable human, but human nonetheless.

Nonetheless they are allowing a child to be ganged up on and brutalized. This speaks volumes about Genbu, those he employed, and what the children in question were getting from their parents.

As I said, Genbu wasn't a nice guy.
Those children's parents most definitely didn't like Britannia, but that doesn ot mean they would all have acted the same way. Even if they had, they might think very differently of a half Japanese person who was raised in Japan. It's all speculation.

Further, as Lelouch pointed out, what Britannia was doing overtly in conquest, Japan was doing covertly through its economic policy, and things like the Oriental Incident. Also remember that Genbu planned to have Japan fight to the last man, which would ensure the devastation of the country and result in a head on conflict between Britannia and the rival superpowers.

Genbu is not the Japanese. Even his own son had no idea what he was doing, and he seemed to have habit of deceiving people. Besides, I think there's a Sound Drama where he talks about marrying Nunnally, who is not Japanese.

[Arbitres]

Why the hell are we talking about Nina on Kallen's thread?

Seriously. How come? You know, just wondering. I think it's a good question. Why?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Why the hell are we talking about Nina on Kallen's thread?

Seriously. How come? You know, just wondering. I think it's a good question. Why?

Because we are trying to figure out in what kind of environment Kallen was living - that is, whether the majority of "Elevens" has been proven to be violent and dangerous or not.
...Or something like that.

[Arbitres]

The Elevens were obviously violent then. The Prime Minister just said "FIGHT!" all the while apparently committing suicide, thus being dubbed traitor.

They were furious, and Resistance was putting it mildly, it was more of a Civil War, just with independant units.

Kallen lived in this world.

1. You got the name, you got the right.
2. Others without 1 are subjugated as a result.
3. Japanese are less human then Britannia's populace.
4. Might makes right
5. Half-blood is considered worse then Eleven.
6. Where the law was always on the Britannians/Noble's sides.

Mind you, she didn't have a name at first, being japanese first and Britannian second. So she saw first hand the occupation. It couldn't have been pretty to see people being ripped apart by explosions and being shot to death regardless of them being civilian or soldier.

Kallen's life was taken from her and replaced by a shadow of the life she wanted to live. The environment wasn't perfect even before the occupation, but it became worse as she saw her friends either die, submit, or live in their own filth.

"A person that knows rage also knows sadness." as Ohgi says, I can agree with that, even though it sickens me to think he actually said something decipherable and meaningful.

Kallen's life wasn't perfect, but she was happy. Britannia came and changed everything, she was forced to go to school and be bullied, hell -- maybe she was bullied before that because she looked more Britannian then Japanese. After awhile, she went became a Stadtfeld. Her mother becoming nothing more then a mere servant.

Naoto probably died at least a year prior to the series, as Kallen seems just abit younger in the photo. So she probably felt quite sad to know he brother was dead and her mother was a pretty named Slave.

Britannian's considered Eleven's violent because the radicals -- such as Kusakabe -- and dubbed them conspirators and trash all the same. Kallen was of both world's but she was forced to see the one she loved most trampled on, raped, and left to rot in ruins the other side made.

I have to say the pinnacle of Britannian disregard was in the form of Clovis. He was very, very happy to see the digital layout of Shinjuku being colored red. That isn't a jab at you Nogi, it's how I view it. He seemed very carefree about doing a 'Urban Renewal'.

Urban Renewal was probably popular back when The Occupation was still fresh.

That is the environment she lived in. Lovely, isn't it? Nothing to do with Nina. Nina is irrelevant to the fact, Nina developed Xenophobia on her own basis and experience. Kallen wasn't part of said experience.

Am I making sense?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Am I making sense?

nope
but we luv yaa anyway

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Kallen's life wasn't perfect, but she was happy.

This.
The show seemed to strongly imply this, though that might be me seeing things.

Britannia came and changed everything, she was forced to go to school and be bullied, hell -- maybe she was bullied before that because she looked more Britannian then Japanese.

Maybe, but it seemed to me that her childhood was a happy one. Not that we know much about it, but Britannia destroying her happiness seemed to be the point to me - maybe she was bullied sometimes, but not constantly.

I have to say the pinnacle of Britannian disregard was in the form of Clovis. He was very, very happy to see the digital layout of Shinjuku being colored red. That isn't a jab at you Nogi, it's how I view it. He seemed very carefree about doing a 'Urban Renewal'.

I got the impression that Clovis simply didn't care, period.
He said, "yep, we like Elevens who cooperate" to keep up appearances and even let them enter Clovis Land and whatever else, but otherwise, he didn't make any effort to stop discrimination - which was part of Britannia's national policy, as Cornelia said.
Clovis also didn't seem thrilled to destroy that Ghetto. He mostly looked bored. In fact, it is repeatedly stated that Clovis pretty much did nothing - aside from the massacre, he can mostly be blamed for his neglience.

Urban Renewal was probably popular back when The Occupation was still fresh.

Clovis didn't care enough - he only destroyed Shinjuku to cover up the C.C. incident.
And let's not forget that in the beginning, Clovis had some very noble goals.

That is the environment she lived in. Lovely, isn't it? Nothing to do with Nina. Nina is irrelevant to the fact, Nina developed Xenophobia on her own basis and experience. Kallen wasn't part of said experience.

Am I making sense?

Yes, but the thesis was that Kallen might have lived in fear of being raped/assaulted by "Elevens" as that is what might have happened to Nina.

[Arbitres]

I'm sorry Blade? Here I was trying to impress you. well.. Not really.

Then let me replace Clovis for Cornelia, since you actually are right about him simply 'not caring'... Actually he is depressing in the light I just placed him under... :/

...I'd rather not enter that argument. Kallen was sympathetic to the Japanese, they might have attacked her without knowing. But hey, that's what Oniichans are for, right? She was probably with Naoto and her mother a good deal, but I wouldn't say always. Simple speculation, though I'll stop yacking... Blade shot me down a notch.

Here I was weally weally tryin' to impress y'all. Oh well, big deal~

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Then let me replace Clovis for Cornelia, since you actually are right about him simply 'not caring'... Actually he is depressing in the light I just placed him under... :/

*nods happily*
Clovis wasn't out to kill people, he just did it anyway.
It's still morally inacceptable, but an important difference when it comes to characterization. The next time I see a fic in which Clovis tries to kill Lelouch, I'll bite something.

...I'd rather not enter that argument. Kallen was sympathetic to the Japanese, they might have attacked her without knowing. But hey, that's what Oniichans are for, right? She was probably with Naoto and her mother a good deal, but I wouldn't say always.

*nods again*

Simple speculation, though I'll stop yacking... Blade shot me down a notch.

Here I was weally weally tryin' to impress y'all. Oh well, big deal~

Aw, no, we're all impressed! *hugs* xD

[Revolutionist]

I don't blame Clovis, he did what he had to do. He cared at first, but after years of endless terrorism and civil unrest he probably just stopped caring and decided to let his generals do things the easy way (kill everybody, cover it up afterwards).

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I don't blame Clovis, he did what he had to do. He cared at first, but after years of endless terrorism and civil unrest he probably just stopped caring and decided to let his generals do things the easy way (kill everybody, cover it up afterwards).

How could you not blame him for destroying many innocent lives just for a cover up. That was an extreme order to make just because he might get disinherited.

Since this is the Kallen tread. It is good that she was willing to take the stand against the empire even though she could have stayed in her rich home and do nothing. Without Kallen and Lelouch Japen would be in the toilet.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I don't blame Clovis, he did what he had to do. He cared at first, but after years of endless terrorism and civil unrest he probably just stopped caring and decided to let his generals do things the easy way (kill everybody, cover it up afterwards).

He should just have invited Euphie over!
...No, really, Clovis was being an ass there. I suppose a dead sibling, even if it's Lelouch, isn't that motivating (*...avoid Kallen's glare*), but the Shinjuku thing was totally kicking the puppy.
He stopped making an effort much too quickly.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

As I said, Genbu wasn't a nice guy.
Those children's parents most definitely didn't like Britannia, but that doesn ot mean they would all have acted the same way. Even if they had, they might think very differently of a half Japanese person who was raised in Japan. It's all speculation.

There is still the matter of basic human decency. The guards could have helped Lelouch and if Genbu heard about it and even cared enough to bring it up, they could easily say there was a risk of Lelouch accidentally dying from the severity of his beating. They do nothing.

As for the children, regardless of what their parents think, Kallen would not be dealing with them, but the children themselves, and they have shown how far they would go. As a culture Japan puts a sizeable emphasis on "dignity" and not burdening others with one's problems to the point that women molested on trains are expected to "not make a scene" and teachers concerned about domestic abuse at a child's home are told to "mind their ow business."

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Genbu is not the Japanese. Even his own son had no idea what he was doing, and he seemed to have habit of deceiving people. Besides, I think there's a Sound Drama where he talks about marrying Nunnally, who is not Japanese.

While Genbu might be able to conceal a bit of his nature from the people, he was still continuing an aggressive foreign policy that Lelouch actually likened to Britannia in its severity. You can't hide something like that, and for the nation to go along with it, since Genbu was an elected official, the Japanese as a whole have to have a pretty low opinion of other countries, or at least Britannia. As well, there was apparently an entire group of the population that wanted Genbu to carry through with his "to the death" stance.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

There is still the matter of basic human decency. The guards could have helped Lelouch and if Genbu heard about it and even cared enough to bring it up, they could easily say there was a risk of Lelouch accidentally dying from the severity of his beating. They do nothing.

Genbu probably picked those guards personally. If I have hostages I might want to kill later on, I don't put them with people who might care.

As for the children, regardless of what their parents think, Kallen would not be dealing with them, but the children themselves, and they have shown how far they would go. As a culture Japan puts a sizeable emphasis on "dignity" and not burdening others with one's problems to the point that women molested on trains are expected to "not make a scene" and teachers concerned about domestic abuse at a child's home are told to "mind their ow business."

We don't even know if the staff thought about these things. All we know for sure about Kallen's childhood is that she wasn't completely unhappy - she looked happy at the picture, she is possibly a bit racist in the beginning of the anime ("that's why I hate Britannians"), she shares her brother's ideals and has pride in Japan, her mother was happy back then, their happiness was destroyed by Britannia.
Saying she probably had a horrible childhood because a Britannian prince was beaten up by a group of kids that lived right next to Genbu Kururugi doesn't work if the anime never so much as hinted at Kallen having been unhappy before the invasion. It's pure speculation.

While Genbu might be able to conceal a bit of his nature from the people, he was still continuing an aggressive foreign policy that Lelouch actually likened to Britannia in its severity. You can't hide something like that, and for the nation to go along with it, since Genbu was an elected official, the Japanese as a whole have to have a pretty low opinion of other countries, or at least Britannia. As well, there was apparently an entire group of the population that wanted Genbu to carry through with his "to the death" stance.

If Japan had been that racist, he most likely wouldn't have considered marrying a Britannian princess to gain influence. Also, not wanting to give in to an oppressive superpower no matter the cost isn't the same as being horribly racist.
No, the Japanese weren't saints. However, that does not mean Kallen was treated badly - the little bits we have on her childhood indicate that she used to be pretty happy.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Genbu probably picked those guards personally. If I have hostages I might want to kill later on, I don't put them with people who might care.

But they didn't know that there would be war. As mentioned in the Sound Drama where Clovis mentioned becoming Viceroy of Area 11, none of them thought they would go to war with Japan. The entire attack itself was a surprise to the world and until it happened the Japanese needed Lelouch alive and intact.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

We don't even know if the staff thought about these things. All we know for sure about Kallen's childhood is that she wasn't completely unhappy - she looked happy at the picture, she is possibly a bit racist in the beginning of the anime ("that's why I hate Britannians"), she shares her brother's ideals and has pride in Japan, her mother was happy back then, their happiness was destroyed by Britannia.
Saying she probably had a horrible childhood because a Britannian prince was beaten up by a group of kids that lived right next to Genbu Kururugi doesn't work if the anime never so much as hinted at Kallen having been unhappy before the invasion. It's pure speculation.

Kallen's home life was happy I agree, but this says nothing about the rest of her life. It could have been similarly happy, but the mentoning of bullying, the apparent lack of any Japanese friends her age, and the part of her character poem saying she saw hopelessness in her life after Naoto died, do not suggest that she had a happy life elsewhere. If she had friends and sources of happiness outside of her family, then her brother's death would be harsh, but not necessarily something worth throwing everything away over.

I agree that it is speculation, but not unjustified. We do know Kallen was picked on, and it would likely need to be chronic to warrant being brought up.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

If Japan had been that racist, he most likely wouldn't have considered marrying a Britannian princess to gain influence. Also, not wanting to give in to an oppressive superpower no matter the cost isn't the same as being horribly racist.
No, the Japanese weren't saints. However, that does not mean Kallen was treated badly - the little bits we have on her childhood indicate that she used to be pretty happy.

I don't have a source, but I think there was mention (or maybe just speculation) that some of Charles' wives would have been from other nations as part of the political dealings. Britannia was quite racist, but they weren't above political marriages if enough could be gained from it, as was the case with Odessyus and the Tianzi. They were also planning to award noble titles to the Eunuchs.

It isn't just about not submitting to Britannia, but the fact that prolonging the war was futile, thus a waste of lives, and would escalate global hostilities, causing more bloodshed.

As said, the bits we have were that her home life was happy, but that its deterioration was apparently enough for her to lose hope for her life as a whole. Again, it's speculation but it would make sense that a poor social life would cause her to gravitate more towards her family, and giving it a greater impact on her happiness.

[Arbitres]

Terrible, to know that fire was nearly extinguished, it's ambers creating a blaze that engulfed the world over. And thus, she created her own blaze. With her right arm of destruction.

Now along with what I think instead of my poetic interpretation of her ambitions being in the form of Guren.


She probably relied on Naoto as a medium to make japanese friends. This is possible, because Naoto apaprently was more 'japanese looking' then Kallen. It would also explain how Naoto's friends (Ohgi, Kento, Minami, Shinchiro, etc.) accepted her.

It's safe to say she probably saw rampant racism and prejudice in her early adolescence. Japan was her home, it being broken into and stolen from her. I have to say this is obvious as a possible motivator.

She might have joined the rebellion after Naoto died. I'm not certain about R2 sound or picture drams since I've yet to view them (I doubt I could, I need proficient japanese to know.) but that is entirely possible.

But now onto something else for a moment.

She might have been bullied, and as a result formed a complex about weakness. This is possible and worth touching upon in my opinion. It doesn't have to be chronic or anything of the sort, maybe a personality mold that can happen to a person from frequent experiences in the individual's life. Or more commonly a 'complex'. Nina was probably compared to prettier girls, and thus formed a inferiority complex -- this is an example. Please don't be redundant.

Back onto her connection with Naoto. She may or may have been part of the rebellion before Naoto's death. The 'To realize Naoto's dream' is ambiguos and leaves room for a good deal of questioning. Was she aware of his dream and his activities as a terrorist? Or was she a terrorist before his death? Or was she motivated somehow? Speculation only obviously, though I guess that's one of the points of a character's thread.


You all can decide what to do. I'm going to kick back and enjoy the scenery. Don't try to state too many things over again. Half of Nogitsune's previous post was something I already summed up.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

But they didn't know that there would be war. As mentioned in the Sound Drama where Clovis mentioned becoming Viceroy of Area 11, none of them thought they would go to war with Japan. The entire attack itself was a surprise to the world and until it happened the Japanese needed Lelouch alive and intact.

Lelouch's siblings didn't think Britannia would go to war with Japan. That is, they probably believed that even the Emperor valued Lelouch's and Nunnally's lives a bit more than that - it's true that no one could have really seen it coming, but Britannia and Japan obviously hadn't been on the best terms, and I doubt it was the first time Britannia did something like that.

Lelouch and Nunnally were also hostages - Genbu wanted to use them for political purposes besides marrying Nunnally, whatever purposes those were. If something like that doesn't work out, you'd usually kill at least one of them to get your point across.

Kallen's home life was happy I agree, but this says nothing about the rest of her life. It could have been similarly happy, but the mentoning of bullying, the apparent lack of any Japanese friends her age, and the part of her character poem saying she saw hopelessness in her life after Naoto died, do not suggest that she had a happy life elsewhere. If she had friends and sources of happiness outside of her family, then her brother's death would be harsh, but not necessarily something worth throwing everything away over.

All those things happened after the invasion, though. It's not a rare thing in Code Geass that a character loses one or two people close to them and fails to move on - just look at Clovis. As a prince of Britannia, he had everything - yet he threw it away after Lelouch's death. By going to Area 11, he took on a job even Cornelia knew he despised, and in the end, his whole resolution vanished because he lost interest in the future, painting his late siblings and putting a copy of Aries' Imperial Villa on top of the government building instead of going through with his plans. He and Lelouch hadn't even been that close, yet half a decade after his supposed death, Clovis still hasn't gotten over it.
Kallen spent much more time with Naoto, and probably also shared his ideals from the start. She looked up to him, and it's no surprise that someone with her sense of justice couldn't just ignore the injustice around her. Losing your family and living in a hateful and unfair world can distract you a lot from making friends.

I agree that it is speculation, but not unjustified. We do know Kallen was picked on, and it would likely need to be chronic to warrant being brought up.

Again, that was atfer the invasion, and it was never said that she was picked on by "Elevens". The paintings Euphie is supposed to evaluate in that one episode are partly from half-bloods like Kallen, which implies that on the surface, they were treated like Britannians - Kallen might very well have gone to a Britannian school. In fact, I'm not at all sure there were many schools for "Elevens" available.

I don't have a source, but I think there was mention (or maybe just speculation) that some of Charles' wives would have been from other nations as part of the political dealings. Britannia was quite racist, but they weren't above political marriages if enough could be gained from it, as was the case with Odessyus and the Tianzi. They were also planning to award noble titles to the Eunuchs.

Britannia isn't so much racist as it is about being stronger than everyone else, at least officially. The Chinese Federation was also a superpower, so I don't think anyone who could see the political advatages would have complained.

It isn't just about not submitting to Britannia, but the fact that prolonging the war was futile, thus a waste of lives, and would escalate global hostilities, causing more bloodshed.

People tend to not think very logically when their whole way of life is being threatened.

As said, the bits we have were that her home life was happy, but that its deterioration was apparently enough for her to lose hope for her life as a whole. Again, it's speculation but it would make sense that a poor social life would cause her to gravitate more towards her family, and giving it a greater impact on her happiness.

Well, it's not an absurd speculation, but it still lack canon support, which is why it's hard to discuss. Cornelia was also devastated by Euphie's death, but she certainly wasn't being bullied as a child (or if she was, I feel sorry for everyone who tried) - and she's just one example of many. While Lelouch and Nunnally were pretty isolated from everyone else for a considerable amoun of time, Kallen survived a war together with her family. She saw death and despair, and Naoto gave her something to believe in.

[Knightrunner]

I think half-bloods could be treated well in Brit. if only they have extremely high skills and make statements it is because the Brit. half blood in me, and it may require for the halfblood to disown the other half.

I thought it was interesting how Gino said if you go with your Stadtfeld name you could have been famous and become one of the knight of rounds.

So I believe half bloods in both society can be treated negatively if you do not have a special high status or any talents. Jap. will say you not really Japanese and vise versa with Brit. It was infered that Kallen will be treated negatively if the other students find out she is actually half Japanese and that is why Milly is going to keep it a secret.

Am I making any sense?

[Aquaman OS]

I think it had to do with Kallen's half blood status being secret. If she pretended she wasn't and everyone kept their mouths shut then yes she could have gotten as high as the Rounds. But if you are an open half then you are at a disadvantage against pure Britannian's. Not as hopeless as a number but still at a disadvantage.