[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Oblivion]

Finished reading Episode 6 and I have a few more questions:

How did Kanon save Battler? Was it all really just a prank until Erika killed them for real and so does it mean there was no culprit to begin with? And the final red truth that Erika and Battler/Beatrice used, I don't understand that one.

[Cao Ni Ma]

I think most of the people understood it as a play on the whole Shkanon situation with Yasu being able to turn on/off personas as s/he sees fit for the sole reason of dodging a red. At least to all of us who have no "love"

In regards to Battler's game in ep6, I always liked thinking how it would have played out had Erika used her detective authority. That and how it would play out if Battler didn't accept any of the handicaps he took on. Trying to read behind the lines to try and find any of clues or herrings. I always felt that Battler was gonna kill her off and force her to conduct the investigation as George

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is, if Shannon and Kanon were separate people within the ep5 narrative, it's entirely possible that Yasu/"Beatrice" wouldn't exist at all. There's no way to clearly tell that from what's going on, but if an author were to do that, unaware of the true servant's existence, would that not be the result? Why would you write a story featuring a culprit you don't know or don't believe exists?

Lambda knew the whole truth, so by necessity she knows of and believes in Yasu. She's intentionally misleading Bernkastel and company to keep the game going infinitely as she desires.

The death of the victims in the cousin's room was confirmed in red by Virgilia befere Erika declared that she found the culprit. So it's not possible that it was the bomb.

Didn't she say that during the replay of the game? Meaning technically Erika declared the culprit before we could even see the Game?

How did Kanon save Battler? Was it all really just a prank until Erika killed them for real and so does it mean there was no culprit to begin with? And the final red truth that Erika and Battler/Beatrice used, I don't understand that one.

Indeed, there was no culprit until Erika decided to be a bitch.

Kanon saved Battler by essentially calling a bluff. The fact that Beatrice 'used magic' implies that there was trickery. The most obvious way of solving this problem is that Shannon crawled out her window, became Kanon, rescued Battler, enter the closet, and then stopped being Kanon and became Shannon again, thus "Kanon is nowhere in this room."

The final Red Truth between Erika and Battler/Beatrice basically amounts to "You're imaginary, Erika. Get the fuck out because you were never on Rokkenjima."

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't think you're really getting this. Am I being unclear?

Ryukishi writes a story. [...]
So in summation: There may be parts of the story that do not exist in the actual VN.

I actually completely agree with you there, though I'd like to make a little ajustment to the formula.

The story End of the Golden Witch which was conceived within Ryukishi's narrative Umineko no naku koro ni
becomes the basis for
The gameboard conceived by the witch Lambdadelta
which is a part of
The narrative that is EP5 The End of the Golden Witch conceived by Ryûkishi07.

What we read might contain everything that is Lambda's game, but as you said it must not and probably does not contain everything that is contained in the fictional novel End of the Golden Witch.

I started taking the stance that what we see in the Meta World is actually the thought process of Battler as he writes the stories and thinks about them. Sometimes Ange's thoughts are mixed in as well, which mirrors her experience when reading Hachijô Tôya's final product.

Tôya collected basic plot elements for EP5 from the different groups who thought about the Rokkenjima incident.
If we consider that Lambdadelta is "Beatrice's benefactor" "the one who allows her to be a witch", you could say that her making the game represents the group of people who believe in the witch's existence tackling the theories of those who want to tear it down. And those again are represented by Bernkastel and put into the story in form of Erika.

It's no accident I'd say that the man from 19 years ago was proposed by Lambdadelta. It was not to frame Natsuhi, it was to present an alternative.
If we consider Lambda and Bern to be part of Battler/Tôya's thought process as well, you could say it was the part in him in favour of the witch illusion saying "Hey, there are still alternatives to framing your relatives!!".

EP5 for me was showing the conflicting emotions within Battler/Tôya, as he was approaching the story from two viewpoints. Tôya wanted to know everything and supported Bern/Erika (the group which are represented by the Witch hunters in the real world) but the Battler in him (who probably knew quite much) fought against that idea and inserted conflicting statements into the narrative.
And then, almost when he was convinced that there was no other way than to proclaim Natsuhi guilty of those crimes because of doubt and evidence, he came to question why then "Beatrice" had to make that noble sacrifice and proclaim herself guilty through the message bottles.

And that is when he suddenly remembered Yasu, his broken promise, the effect he had on the events, what actually happened on the island and how it conflicts with what people are supposed to think, etc...

The question is wether Tôya came to that conclusion while writing or after...but wasn't the End of the Golden Witch which Ange got to read only a script and not a released version? Maybe Tôya scrapped the idea to release End while going over it (which is presented to us as Battler's struggle in the Meta World), because he realized that this is not what he was supposed to write.

Originally Posted by Oblivion0101

Finished reading Episode 6 and I have a few more questions:

How did Kanon save Battler? Was it all really just a prank until Erika killed them for real and so does it mean there was no culprit to begin with? And the final red truth that Erika and Battler/Beatrice used, I don't understand that one.

That is one of the things you need to find out in order to reach the truth of that gameboard and the truth of Umineko. I think it's no fun to spoil the fun by giving you a solution that was made...especially because it's among those things that are still discussed.
Take your time, think about it...but if you can't wait I'll give you my theory in spoilers:

Spoiler for Theory for Kanon's trick and Erika's red EP6:

Kanon was never in the room of the guesthouse to begin with, as he is a part of a split entity just as Shannon. Erika was tricked into believing he was in there, so he could just vanish from the room and "go save Battler".
After "Kanon" freed Battler from the locked room in the mansion, he just stopped being Kanon and therefore could not be found when Erika was looking for Kanon. It's more of an intellectual excercize or logic puzzle (Ryûkishi actually says that Umineko is more like that, so a 論理パズル, than an actual mystery) and it's about figuring out how that could be done...it doesn't have to be realistic.

Erika's red could be pulled of because it depends on two different views of the Rokkenjima reality. We know that Shannon and Kanon are perceived as two different characters within the narrative, so saying that Erika is the 18th person (or you could say the 18th name in the list of perceived characters) is true.
But in reality there is no Kanon and Shannon, they are just roles played by one and the same person, so even if Erika was on the island (which is debatable), she would just be the 17th person who we could count.

You could also say:
On the island there are Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolph, Kyrie, Battler, Rosa, Maria, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Shannon, Kanon, Nanjô and Erika. It's not wrong from a narrative viewpoint.
But it is also true that: On the island there are Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolph, Kyrie, Battler, Rosa, Maria, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Person X =[Shannon & Kanon], Nanjô and Erika.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lambda knew the whole truth, so by necessity she knows of and believes in Yasu. She's intentionally misleading Bernkastel and company to keep the game going infinitely as she desires.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the original author of the story on which she based her game knew that. Lambda clearly does, and sets the parameters of her game in red to match the "correct" ones. That doesn't mean every single incarnation of the story did, merely the one we actually saw parts of.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't think you're really getting this. Am I being unclear?

I honestly find difficult to follow your reasonings, this time in particular.

Originally Posted by Renall

So Ryukishi is clearly suggesting that the narrative he presented is not complete and that it could be completed if you understand how he would have written it. Not that he did write it, or even that he specifically has any idea himself how it would've been written. Just that, if you had all the tools in place and all the right ideas, you could imagine it.

Which brings us to the existence of Rokkenjima-Prime, the "reality" of the Umineko series but not our actual reality.

Stop.
I think this issue is totally unrelated to Rokkenjima-Prime. Rokkenjima-Prime is what happened in the universe where Ange Ikuko and Tohya live as shown in the ending of EP8.
The continuation of EP5 does not necessarily need to have anything to do with Rokkenjima-Prime and we have no guarantee that the story as we have seen it is the same as the forgery of the same name In Rokkenjima-Prime.

Originally Posted by Renall

However, my guess is that if it's a real story within the context of the R-Prime world, it probably doesn't stop after the Second Twilight.

Why not? Maybe it does, or maybe it doesn't but it's completely unrelated to the story we have seen. So maybe Hideyoshi died in the first twilight and Krauss dies in the fourth.

Originally Posted by Renall

When Ryukishi wrote his VN, ep5 "End of the Golden Witch," he imagined the existence of this fictional End of the Golden Witch, then changed something (we don't know what) to create the final product. Of course, he may not have literally written an entire regular episode out in his head, then applied magic and/or meta scenes to it. He probably imagined it the way we read it, with the meta-narrative an essential part of it (especially since ep5 is mostly a meta-narrative episode to begin with). However, he believed that such a work was written in-universe, he just chose not to let us see it.

Again are you totally sure that he even thought how Lambda's game would have continued?

Originally Posted by Renall

For a similar scenario, look at Battler's game in ep6. Battler's actions and behavior clearly suggest that he intends for the game to be more than just a First Twilight, yet we never ever see any more of the game than the First Twilight. Does that mean Battler never actually had any idea what the rest of his game was going to look like? Of course not, that'd be absurd.

Lol... ehm sorry but: What happened to the genius Battler theory? If it is as you always said Battler didn't need to think about anything after that because he planned for the story to abruptly end there.

Originally Posted by Renall

However, can we take from that that Ryukishi himself, who wrote ep6, knew what the rest of Battler's game was going to be like? No, because he may not have cared, since he was writing a story in which Erika doesn't allow the game to progress that far.

and here we agree.

Originally Posted by Renall

So in summation: There may be parts of the story that do not exist in the actual VN. Ryukishi may never have actually written these parts of the story, but he acknowledges that they "exist" in some form.

And here we disagree, where did he acknowledge that?

How did Kanon save Battler? Was it all really just a prank until Erika killed them for real and so does it mean there was no culprit to begin with? And the final red truth that Erika and Battler/Beatrice used, I don't understand that one.

Kanon and Shannon are the same person. Kanon was never in the cousin's room to begin with. Shannon escaped from the window, obviously since the seal wasn't intact. She "became" Kanon by assuming the Kanon personality. Kanon "helped" Battler then closed himself in the closed and then "stopped" being Kanon by becoming.. I dunno Shannon, Beatrice, Yasu or whatever other personality there is in that mind.
The final truth simply means that the total amount of people in Rokkenjima are 16 because Shannon and Kanon are one and the same. With Erika it becomes 17.
As to why Erika could say in red that she's 18th visitors there are several unconfirmed interpretations.
The culprit? Maybe there was supposed to be one in Battler's plan but we will never know.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the original author of the story on which she based her game knew that.

You know you make it sound as if Lambdadelta consciously created her game after reading the forgery in Rokkenjima prime.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I honestly find difficult to follow your reasonings, this time in particular.

Well, that's your problem I'm afraid.

The continuation of EP5 does not necessarily need to have anything to do with Rokkenjima-Prime and we have no guarantee that the story as we have seen it is the same as the forgery of the same name In Rokkenjima-Prime.

That wasn't really what I was driving at. Try rereading.

Why not? Maybe it does, or maybe it doesn't but it's completely unrelated to the story we have seen. So maybe Hideyoshi died in the first twilight and Krauss dies in the fourth.

Then it would be an entirely different story. Of course, such a thing is possible; I could take inspiration from the basic plot of ep2 and switch people's roles around. But I think that's entirely unlikely to be the case.

Again are you totally sure that he even thought how Lambda's game would have continued?

Maybe, maybe not, but he acknowledged that we could guess, even if he never bothered to do so himself. He's basically saying that someone who knew the truth could write out the rest of ep5. It doesn't mean their answer would be official, just that it would match with the sort of thing Ryukishi himself would've written had he chosen to do it.

Whether he thought about it or not doesn't bear on his claim that any one of us could think about it and come up with a "proper" continuation. He believes it's possible.

Lol... ehm sorry but: What happened to the genius Battler theory? If it is as you always said Battler didn't need to think about anything after that because he planned for the story to abruptly end there.

Genius Battler does not imply omnipotent Battler. Assume GB is true; if Erika hadn't taken his bait for the First Twilight, and had allowed him to get away with it, his game would've had to continue. It's possible he had an array of plans, each of which would've permitted Erika to "trap" him. If she'd somehow let him go the whole way without saying anything... well then he wins, sort of. Not in the way he wants to win, but still. Erika could have done this to spite him, but that wasn't her goal.

And here we disagree, where did he acknowledge that?

Interviews, extra TIPS, etc. It's implied by the nature of much of what he wrote, as well.

You know you make it sound as if Lambdadelta consciously created her game after reading the forgery in Rokkenjima prime.

What exactly constitutes Lambda's agency, in the meta-world or as the meta-world tracks to the "real" world, is something I can't rightly speculate on at this time. But I would argue that it's incredibly unlikely that the Rokkenjima stories created by the meta-world characters were actually written by them. Battler "wrote" two stories, yet we had Featherine taking credit for Dawn. That, combined with Bernkastel's attitude toward the stories she presents, should be a hint.

[Jan-Poo]

I think I know where is the problem. You assume that when ryuukishi said that "you should be able to understand what happens afterward" meant that you should be able to know what happens in each subsequent twilight. However that's simply preposterous and impossible for us.

I think Ryuukishi was misunderstood there. He was simply referring to the fact that in the end everything blows up. This is what he meant by that.

What exactly constitutes Lambda's agency, in the meta-world or as the meta-world tracks to the "real" world, is something I can't rightly speculate on at this time. But I would argue that it's incredibly unlikely that the Rokkenjima stories created by the meta-world characters were actually written by them. Battler "wrote" two stories, yet we had Featherine taking credit for Dawn. That, combined with Bernkastel's attitude toward the stories she presents, should be a hint.

The way I see it the metaworld is simply a metaphoric world. In this metaphor Lambda wrote the story while in Rokkenjima prime the Hachijo duo did. There doesn't need to be any interaction between the two worlds, they might as well happen simultaneously one as the metaphor of the other. In the metaworld Lambda came up with that story by herself without borrowing ideas from Rokkenjima prime. Of course all of her actions in the metaworld might be predetermined by what happens in Rokkenjima prime, but in that case she's most certainly not aware.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think I know where is the problem. You assume that when ryuukishi said that "you should be able to understand what happens afterward" meant that you should be able to know what happens in each subsequent twilight. However that's simply preposterous and impossible for us.

I think Ryuukishi was misunderstood there. He was simply referring to the fact that in the end everything blows up. This is what he meant by that.

It's not preposterous. I could write it right now. Part of that is of course that it has to end in an explosion. But the notion that you can just say "oh and then they blew up" seems in no way consistent with any previous episode. The notion that the suspension of the game means the story cannot continue is patently absurd and you know it. For crying out loud, ep5's board narrative even cuts out on Battler about to say something. It can be continued from that point up until the explosion at the end. It merely was not. "Was not" is not "can not." Moreover, I believe it was continued, in the original text that we have never been shown. The one ep6 Ange claimed to have read (whether Ange-Prime ever did or not).

The way I see it the metaworld is simply a metaphoric world. In this metaphor Lambda wrote the story while in Rokkenjima prime the Hachijo duo did. There doesn't need to be any interaction between the two worlds, they might as well happen simultaneously one as the metaphor of the other. In the metaworld Lambda came up with that story by herself without borrowing ideas from Rokkenjima prime. Of course all of her actions in the metaworld might be predetermined by what happens in Rokkenjima prime, but in that case she's most certainly not aware.

That implies the text is exactly the same in a 1:1 correlation. The point of R-Prime is that we don't know that for sure. Even if it were true that every single piece of narrative text was lifted directly from the text of Hachijou Tohya's End, I highly doubt that his version of End would've abruptly terminated at the point where it did. It wouldn't make any sense. The only reason it does in Ryukishi's ep5 "End of the Golden Witch" is because he adds closure to the storyline by concluding the meta-narrative at the trial.

[AuraTwilight]

I think Ryuukishi was misunderstood there. He was simply referring to the fact that in the end everything blows up. This is what he meant by that.

And I think you're the one misunderstanding, because it takes no special understanding to go to the conclusion that a bomb goes off no matter what, since that's been spelled out for us in the narrative.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's not preposterous. I could write it right now.

What can you write? A fan fiction? You have absolutely no way to logically deduce what was supposed to happen after the story interrupted. What Ryuukishi said is that you could "understand" not that you can come up with a continuation.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And I think you're the one misunderstanding, because it takes no special understanding to go to the conclusion that a bomb goes off no matter what, since that's been spelled out for us in the narrative.

You are tragically forgetting when that interview was done.

[AuraTwilight]

You are tragically forgetting when that interview was done.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that LOLBOMB was obvious as early as EP4, to the degree that the anime directors felt it was appropriate to draw a big ass crater on Ange's map.

What can you write? A fan fiction? You have absolutely no way to logically deduce what was supposed to happen after the story interrupted. What Ryuukishi said is that you could "understand" not that you can come up with a continuation.

It is through creating a Forgery that one can demonstrate that they truly understand the tale. Hachijou shoved this down the reader's throat the entirety of EP6. Ange even remarks that the tale is so similar to the original works that Toya was like "Another Endless Witch".

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

No, I'm not. I'm saying that LOLBOMB was obvious as early as EP4, to the degree that the anime directors felt it was appropriate to draw a big ass crater on Ange's map.

No you said that it was spelled out, smartass.
Also Ryuukishi in that interview never said it was a hard task, but something you could actually understand. Your point is invalid.
And for the hundredth time It was me that made that crater in that picture! It was so obviously shopped that I didn't know it was necessary to tell. I just made it as a a tangible way to make you understand my prediction.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It is through creating a Forgery that one can demonstrate that they truly understand the tale. Hachijou shoved this down the reader's throat the entirety of EP6. Ange even remarks that the tale is so similar to the original works that Toya was like "Another Endless Witch".

Yeah you write a tale as proof that you understand the story not as a mean to understand it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

No, I'm not. I'm saying that LOLBOMB was obvious as early as EP4, to the degree that the anime directors felt it was appropriate to draw a big ass crater on Ange's map.

Moreover, it requires no understanding of the truth to observe the aftermath of the incident and derive the notion that there was an explosion. Anyone who exists in the future of the incident can see that, and it was fairly obvious to us from an early point.

That is a far cry from understanding the truth of the story to even begin to guess as to why an explosion happened, let alone much else. A forger who knows nothing about the incident except that there must have been an explosion can easily write a story which ends in one. That alone is not sufficient to write a forgery which reaches Beatrice's heart or whatever nonsense it is we're supposed to look for.

I assure you, I do not think he would have wasted such open-ended and ambiguous words on "and then everyone blows up, the end." I think it's clear that he meant that understanding the story would permit you to speculate as to how it might flow to its conclusion. That doesn't mean that you'd guess the second half of ep5 exactly the way Ryukishi would've told it. It just means that if you knew what you were doing, you could construct a forgery that's basically "End + Stuff" and that forgery would reach the heart of the story. If you did it right he'd be able to read it, nod, and say "Yes, that's one way it could have happened that speaks to the truth." As opposed to, say, suddenly having space aliens attack. There's a big difference between plausibly detailing a narrative that could have been the second half of End and just writing whatever to fill space.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah you write a tale as proof that you understand the story not as a mean to understand it.

Here I totally disagree.

Writing forgeries is also a way towards the truth...if your story matches the requirements and is unable to be tackled by counterarguments, then you might have pretty much arrived at something close to the truth.
Maybe not THE truth, but that was never the intention of the forgeries anyway.

Even in the narrative of Umineko EP3-5 were methods of Tôya to arrive at a truth he had not regained yet. And EP1 and 2 are only predictions of what might happen. Only EP6 and 8 were written with the full knowledge of the truth.

[AuraTwilight]

No you said that it was spelled out, smartass.
Also Ryuukishi in that interview never said it was a hard task, but something you could actually understand. Your point is invalid.
And for the hundredth time It was me that made that crater in that picture! It was so obviously shopped that I didn't know it was necessary to tell. I just made it as a a tangible way to make you understand my prediction.

Oooh, someone's getting a bit touchy touchy touchy.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a genius, but I feel that "Everyone dies no matter who is still alive to carry out the last murders" and "Everything is fucking gone except a piece of Maria's jaw" and "The entire island is vaporized into a big-ass crater" to mean "Explosion."

Yeah you write a tale as proof that you understand the story not as a mean to understand it.

Splitting-hairs desu. Also what those other two guys said. You really need to lighten up; it's like you have a personal problem with being corrected about anything.

[cronnoponno]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lambda knew the whole truth, so by necessity she knows of and believes in Yasu. She's intentionally misleading Bernkastel and company to keep the game going infinitely as she desires.



Didn't she say that during the replay of the game? Meaning technically Erika declared the culprit before we could even see the Game?



Indeed, there was no culprit until Erika decided to be a bitch.

Kanon saved Battler by essentially calling a bluff. The fact that Beatrice 'used magic' implies that there was trickery. The most obvious way of solving this problem is that Shannon crawled out her window, became Kanon, rescued Battler, enter the closet, and then stopped being Kanon and became Shannon again, thus "Kanon is nowhere in this room."

The final Red Truth between Erika and Battler/Beatrice basically amounts to "You're imaginary, Erika. Get the fuck out because you were never on Rokkenjima."

Was that what the red truth really meant? I thought the final red truth was basically confessing that someone was imaginary. After reading EP 7, I figured it was talking about either Kanon or Shannon. It also seemed like, after asking Beato if she was sure she wanted to expose it, it'd be something related to her and not Erika.

Basically meaning there were 16 humans, and Erika joining would have made it 17. Whether she was alive or dead, and whether or not she counted in the case of being dead wasn't really something I considered though. (although seeing Kinzo doesn't count despite being dead that's probably not correct, unless they pulled some bullshit about ''humans'' being different from ''corpses'' like in EP 5)

[Cao Ni Ma]

Eh not really imaginary but splits from the same person. Yasu did it to compensate whenever she needed to by making people up and living them out. For all intended purposes that person existed until Yasu decides they dont exist anymore.

[AuraTwilight]

Was that what the red truth really meant? I thought the final red truth was basically confessing that someone was imaginary. After reading EP 7, I figured it was talking about either Kanon or Shannon. It also seemed like, after asking Beato if she was sure she wanted to expose it, it'd be something related to her and not Erika.

If it was talking about Kanon or Shannon exclusively, how would that deny Erika's existence? But it does also hurt Beatrice's hurt a little, as it implies Shkanon. Regardless, the point is that Erika can't be who she claims to be.

[cronnoponno]

I figured that it'd had just made a hole in her ''Kanon is in the room'' argument, in case ''Kanon does not exist in this room'' wasn't enough for her, plus just a ''lolfuckyou'' to her last statement, since she knew she was boned anyway, and it makes a great opportunity to spell it out to certain readers(myself included at the time).

Plus, in all honesty, she pretty much lost 3 times, if she had happened to say 2+2=3 and they countered with 2+2=4, I'm sure they still would have been able to kill her.


Although now that I hear it's referencing Erika that changes everything, I really thought it didn't, lol....