AnimeSuki Forums

Casshern · 2004-01-20, 12:37

About the "moe~" mentality...

you're saying that a "moe" is a character which is made specificaly to provoke sympathy from the viewer?

i.e Henrieta is an innocent girl who is conditioned to kill without remorce. The remorcelesnes from the brainwashing contradicted to the pure-heartedness which stems from withing her is a kind of tragic irony. The viewer therefore feels sympathy for this character, who is not even real.

So the name "Moe" given to the windup-doll in Love Hina is actually a pun?

Kensuke · 2004-01-21, 08:43

Quite suprising that they introduced a new girl (I haven't read manga, I have ordered first volume thought, but it hasn't arrived yet

)
Else is coldest of the girls, devoting her life completely to her instrutor and not caring anybody else.
Raulo on the other hand doesn't want to interact his partner and basically treats Elsa like tool, he even compares that Elsa is like a weapon, making him number two bastard of the organization.

I wonder that is this going to be bi-weekly series since ep. 10 airs january 28th...

wao · 2004-01-21, 09:43

Heh, this episode had great animation and art. My favourite ep along with Episode 4... I personally think they handled the tension and drama pretty well in this ep. Also I've been waiting and waiting for a girl like Elsa to come up - not blind like Rico, but still as "professional"... And IMO she's the cutest of them all - Triela comes close though. ^_~

Actually, I can understand the moe~ mentality... I'm just not good enough with words to explain it. Gawd I sound like a wannabe, but I really do understand that mentality... Don't they have an anime to explain this?! o_o;

Weissent · 2004-01-22, 16:52

Hmmmm,
I have to say I really enjoy the soundtrack of GG (ending excluded). The Delgados opener is simply great, but the piece with classical orchestration during the weapon cleaning / confrontation in the dark room in ep 09 was, simply put, earcandy. Extraordinary.

Ayu-ayu · 2004-01-22, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kj1980

There we go. I guess the closest thing to "moe~" in Western standards are people who love Audrey Hepburn. (wow that was a bad example!)

Yes, the concept of "moe" is pretty non-existant in Western culture, at least here in the States. Especially as most Western males think themselves "above" extreme emotional attachment to anything (except perhaps sports). It's that kind of passion and aesthetic that continues to elude non-Japanese animation and comics at large. And it's a damn shame. Of course we have little here to inspire and drive that particular passion in the first place.

Given the amount I saw it shouted on Japanese BBSes, I'da thought that Ayu was more "moe" with fans than Haruka in KGNE... ^_^;

I think Comic Party TV did a reasonable explanation of what "moe" is, but it still was probably hard to grasp for anyone who's not a serious otaku.

On a total tangent it reminds me of the producer of the LOTR games for Electronic Arts saying recently that "games have yet to make one cry--but maybe five years from now". Obviously this guy never played a well-written Japanese game such as Kanon, Final Fantasy VII, etc... why is it so many Westerners are so dense on this sort of thing?

CompShrink · 2004-01-22, 20:44

I understand moe... just slightly...

I disagree, guys int he US (stereotypically) get emotionally attached to cars/boats/planes as well as sports. But yeah, nothing really like moe...

Moe is very difficult to explain, it's part of the culture! You need to have a certain level of understanding of Japanese culture to get it, so words themselves cannot explain it without living in Japan, studying it for a long time, or watching enough anime/j-drama.

Shii · 2004-01-22, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompShrink

studying it for a long time

Like this?

stormy001_M1A2 · 2004-01-23, 02:05

This is in general terms.

Westerners is more expressive and open with their emotions, Asians don't in general. Therefore Asians need a trigger to release and also safe from public viewing for their emotional release and attachment. It also explained why Westerner need more exotic emotional perogative to be emotional with, things like pathos or massive tragedy or maybe paean needed. Stuffs like King Henry V exhortation to his English troops in Shakespeare or reading the accounts of Leonidas and 300 Spartans Last Stand in Thermopylae or The Charge of Light Brigade in Balaclava. It is well noted that Western culture have higher regard for this tales, Asians did not really have as much such emotional attachment to the examples above.

Moe is a sophisticated reaction formation to the social condition, since it is animated, it is designed to exploit on the factor more. Japanese game designers is not stupid, they design games with good eye on using moe to pull in people to buy their games.

How is moe look like or more importantly, what feeling does it stroke when someone look at it? Usually the target has to very appealing hairdo and hair colour, bright multitwinkling eyes, confident expression or cutesy one plus an aura that she/he is approachable yet incorruptible. This is what I understand so far, after some thinking here and there.

Just some musings so far. By the way, I agree the music score for the room scene of Elsa and the subsequent confrontation with Henrietta is excellent, also not forgetting the sniper scene music score too.

Wandering_Youth · 2004-01-23, 03:42

Did Else get left behind in the end or what in episode 9?

wao · 2004-01-23, 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth

Did Else get left behind in the end or what in episode 9?

I have a sad feeling she did... the poor girl, she tried to be so professional... and she never knew she was being mean....

tcrystalis · 2004-01-23, 13:52

I loved that episode too. All Else cared about and desperately needed was some Possible spoiler

Spoiler:

This is definitely one of my favorite episodes.

My first post. I hope I am doing the spoiler thing correctly. Well i am off to try and read the Gunslinger Girl so that I don't have to watch what I read so carefully

I hope that it is as good or close as Battle Angel Alita.

I love your Triela pic Wao. How do you get your own pic like that? I had to choose from a long list and I could not find any for Gunslinger Girl. Not sure as I would pic one though being a guy, but I like the one I picked.

wao · 2004-01-23, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcrystalis

I loved that episode too. All Else cared about and desperately needed was some Possible spoiler

Spoiler:

This is definitely one of my favorite episodes.

My first post. I hope I am doing the spoiler thing correctly. Well i am off to try and read the Gunslinger Girl so that I don't have to watch what I read so carefully

I hope that it is as good or close as Battle Angel Alita.

I love your Triela pic Wao. How do you get your own pic like that? I had to choose from a long list and I could not find any for Gunslinger Girl. Not sure as I would pic one though being a guy, but I like the one I picked.

You do?! :O Thanks! Well I cut out the image from the OP and then gave it a borderish thingy in Photoshop and sharpened the image, etc... yeah, I made it myself, you can make custom avatars!

Triela's my favourite, actually Else is cuter but she's so evil.

tcrystalis · 2004-01-23, 23:35

Henrietta is my favorite

Still, I like them all in different ways. I was looking at episode 9 again and at the end I can't help but feel so very sorry for her. More so than any of the other girls. All of the girls are devoted to their supervisors (mentors? brothers?) but for Else it seems to go beyond that. She has invested all of her being into her mentor and I can almost see the wheels turning in her mind at the end. Not sure if this is a spoiler or not so I will play it safe

Spoiler:

Oh, how beautiful the music is. Anime music is so wonderful at times and in this series it just is a work of art. The whole show is actually a work of art for me. I wish that there were more people around here who would give anime a try, but even when they do it is hard to spark their interest.

One thing I find interesting is that the girls loyalty to their supervisor does not always take on the same form as Henrietta's. Triela's loyalty made her almost aloof and irritated towards her mentor. Actually they all take to the loyalty progamming differently.

I just read the manga and I have to say that the anime is better. The last two chapters were very interesting though. If this anime continues to follow the manga things should start getting very interesting soon. If this manga is only volume one I hope they make another anime series out of vol. 2.

Weissent · 2004-01-25, 06:21

Just a short excursion regarding names in GSG:

I'm still a little uncertain about the romanization of some names, especially the one of Triela's 'big brother'. I've seen many different versions. Triad name him "Hirsyer", in the translated manga (ADV) he's called "Hillshire".

IMHO, since we learn in GSG#4 that he's German, in all probability the most plausible romanization would be "Hirscher", which is quite a common German name:

<hi-ru-shaa> Since the <u> is silent, the pronunciation of the katakana and the German name Hirscher is as close as two completely different languages could possibly get. (in (high-)German, it is actually pronounced like 'here - share' in British English)

Just a thought. And, yes, I noticed that this pic from the official GSG homepage is actually named "hirsyer", (different interpretation of 'sha'?) so I could be completely off-track. On the other hand, Henrietta's portrait is named 'henrjetta' which is also somewhat off ... Any thoughts / ideas concerning this conundrum?

(from ppl who actually *can* speak Japanese?

)

stormy001_M1A2 · 2004-01-25, 08:46

My interpretation of instructor's relation to their girls:

1. Henrietta and Jose = family, brother and sister
2. Jan and Rico = Master and slave
3. Triela and Hirscher = colleagues
4. Claes and Rabarro = father and daughter
5. Angelica and Marco = teacher and student

Elsa is almost bordering on obsessive love.

LordBrian · 2004-01-25, 20:15

Almost bordering? I'd call it more like religious worship.

stormy001_M1A2 · 2004-01-25, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBrian

Almost bordering? I'd call it more like religious worship.

Elsa fits the Fatal Attraction scenario. I guess I underpresented her intensity, she is definitely in love with her instructor.

tcrystalis · 2004-01-26, 00:11

I have all of these screen sots of Gunslinger Girl in a folder of mine and one picture I saw just caused me to bust up laughing last night. It is a shot of Elsa polishing her gun while looking at a photograph of Raulo

just a little bit creepy there.

By the way, does anyone know what the special meaning is to the ice cream for henrietta? I could not figure it out.

drvtech · 2004-01-26, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcrystalis

By the way, does anyone know what the special meaning is to the ice cream for henrietta? I could not figure it out.

If you mean Episode 6 where she asks for ice cream...it's from an only 1956(I think?) movie called Roman Holiday (starring Audrey Hepburn). If you haven't seen it, but you have a girlfriend or wife...should rent it and watch it. Then you'll get the gist of the ice cream. If not, then try a few websites out there that'll explain the significance of the ice cream. Don't want to spoil too much.

Dark_Sun · 2004-01-27, 02:11

wow..that scared me...i thought gsg fanservice was gone O.o.......that one girl in the newest episode is a brat.

2004-01-21, 08:43	Link #222
Kensuke Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Finland	Quite suprising that they introduced a new girl (I haven't read manga, I have ordered first volume thought, but it hasn't arrived yet ) Else is coldest of the girls, devoting her life completely to her instrutor and not caring anybody else. Raulo on the other hand doesn't want to interact his partner and basically treats Elsa like tool, he even compares that Elsa is like a weapon, making him number two bastard of the organization. I wonder that is this going to be bi-weekly series since ep. 10 airs january 28th... Last edited by Kensuke; 2004-01-21 at 08:59.

2004-01-22, 16:52	Link #224
Weissent on and off member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Black Forest	Excellent soundtrack Hmmmm, I have to say I really enjoy the soundtrack of GG (ending excluded). The Delgados opener is simply great, but the piece with classical orchestration during the weapon cleaning / confrontation in the dark room in ep 09 was, simply put, earcandy. Extraordinary.

2004-01-23, 02:05	Link #228
stormy001_M1A2 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia	This is in general terms. Westerners is more expressive and open with their emotions, Asians don't in general. Therefore Asians need a trigger to release and also safe from public viewing for their emotional release and attachment. It also explained why Westerner need more exotic emotional perogative to be emotional with, things like pathos or massive tragedy or maybe paean needed. Stuffs like King Henry V exhortation to his English troops in Shakespeare or reading the accounts of Leonidas and 300 Spartans Last Stand in Thermopylae or The Charge of Light Brigade in Balaclava. It is well noted that Western culture have higher regard for this tales, Asians did not really have as much such emotional attachment to the examples above. Moe is a sophisticated reaction formation to the social condition, since it is animated, it is designed to exploit on the factor more. Japanese game designers is not stupid, they design games with good eye on using moe to pull in people to buy their games. How is moe look like or more importantly, what feeling does it stroke when someone look at it? Usually the target has to very appealing hairdo and hair colour, bright multitwinkling eyes, confident expression or cutesy one plus an aura that she/he is approachable yet incorruptible. This is what I understand so far, after some thinking here and there. Just some musings so far. By the way, I agree the music score for the room scene of Elsa and the subsequent confrontation with Henrietta is excellent, also not forgetting the sniper scene music score too. __________________ My Anime Blog

2004-01-23, 03:42	Link #229
Wandering_Youth lost in wonder forever... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: edge of my dream in the land of twilight...ZzzZzZ	Did Else get left behind in the end or what in episode 9? __________________

2004-01-23, 13:52	Link #231
tcrystalis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	I loved that episode too. All Else cared about and desperately needed was some Possible spoiler Spoiler: sort of compliment or recognition from her supervisor and then she saw Henrietta getting freely what she needed so badly and it hurt. Then the time came when she was supposed to do her job and she felt like this was her one and only chance to prove herself to her supervisor to make him proud. Because she was so nervous she began to make mistakes and her supervisor became disgusted wih her. Because she had invested all of herself into him her failure was totally devastating to her. This is definitely one of my favorite episodes. My first post. I hope I am doing the spoiler thing correctly. Well i am off to try and read the Gunslinger Girl so that I don't have to watch what I read so carefully I hope that it is as good or close as Battle Angel Alita. I love your Triela pic Wao. How do you get your own pic like that? I had to choose from a long list and I could not find any for Gunslinger Girl. Not sure as I would pic one though being a guy, but I like the one I picked.

2004-01-20, 12:37	Link #221
Casshern Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	About the "moe~" mentality... you're saying that a "moe" is a character which is made specificaly to provoke sympathy from the viewer? i.e Henrieta is an innocent girl who is conditioned to kill without remorce. The remorcelesnes from the brainwashing contradicted to the pure-heartedness which stems from withing her is a kind of tragic irony. The viewer therefore feels sympathy for this character, who is not even real. So the name "Moe" given to the windup-doll in Love Hina is actually a pun?

2004-01-21, 09:43	Link #223
wao OK. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Fields of High Attus Age: 34	Heh, this episode had great animation and art. My favourite ep along with Episode 4... I personally think they handled the tension and drama pretty well in this ep. Also I've been waiting and waiting for a girl like Elsa to come up - not blind like Rico, but still as "professional"... And IMO she's the cutest of them all - Triela comes close though. ^_~ Actually, I can understand the moe~ mentality... I'm just not good enough with words to explain it. Gawd I sound like a wannabe, but I really do understand that mentality... Don't they have an anime to explain this?! o_o;

2004-01-22, 20:44	Link #226
CompShrink getting in comps' heads Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: #ToTan @ irc.chatsociety.net	I understand moe... just slightly... I disagree, guys int he US (stereotypically) get emotionally attached to cars/boats/planes as well as sports. But yeah, nothing really like moe... Moe is very difficult to explain, it's part of the culture! You need to have a certain level of understanding of Japanese culture to get it, so words themselves cannot explain it without living in Japan, studying it for a long time, or watching enough anime/j-drama.

2004-01-23, 23:35	Link #233
tcrystalis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	Henrietta is my favorite Still, I like them all in different ways. I was looking at episode 9 again and at the end I can't help but feel so very sorry for her. More so than any of the other girls. All of the girls are devoted to their supervisors (mentors? brothers?) but for Else it seems to go beyond that. She has invested all of her being into her mentor and I can almost see the wheels turning in her mind at the end. Not sure if this is a spoiler or not so I will play it safe Spoiler: She was utterly and completely devastated at letting Raulo down, because for her to have the least amount of adoration or acceptance from Raulo would mean everything to her and that is more than I can comprehend. I don't know why, but I feel that when she saw henrietta with Jose Elsa realized that what she needed so much she just couldn't have. As we see Elsa at the very tail end of the movie I have to wonder if she was pushed over the edge emotionally. Oh, how beautiful the music is. Anime music is so wonderful at times and in this series it just is a work of art. The whole show is actually a work of art for me. I wish that there were more people around here who would give anime a try, but even when they do it is hard to spark their interest. One thing I find interesting is that the girls loyalty to their supervisor does not always take on the same form as Henrietta's. Triela's loyalty made her almost aloof and irritated towards her mentor. Actually they all take to the loyalty progamming differently. I just read the manga and I have to say that the anime is better. The last two chapters were very interesting though. If this anime continues to follow the manga things should start getting very interesting soon. If this manga is only volume one I hope they make another anime series out of vol. 2.

2004-01-25, 06:21	Link #234
Weissent on and off member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Black Forest	Regarding Names Just a short excursion regarding names in GSG: I'm still a little uncertain about the romanization of some names, especially the one of Triela's 'big brother'. I've seen many different versions. Triad name him "Hirsyer", in the translated manga (ADV) he's called "Hillshire". IMHO, since we learn in GSG#4 that he's German, in all probability the most plausible romanization would be "Hirscher", which is quite a common German name: <hi-ru-shaa> Since the <u> is silent, the pronunciation of the katakana and the German name Hirscher is as close as two completely different languages could possibly get. (in (high-)German, it is actually pronounced like 'here - share' in British English) Just a thought. And, yes, I noticed that this pic from the official GSG homepage is actually named "hirsyer", (different interpretation of 'sha'?) so I could be completely off-track. On the other hand, Henrietta's portrait is named 'henrjetta' which is also somewhat off ... Any thoughts / ideas concerning this conundrum? (from ppl who actually can speak Japanese?) Last edited by Weissent; 2004-01-27 at 22:05. Reason: pictoral evidence added ;)

2004-01-25, 08:46	Link #235
stormy001_M1A2 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia	My interpretation of instructor's relation to their girls: 1. Henrietta and Jose = family, brother and sister 2. Jan and Rico = Master and slave 3. Triela and Hirscher = colleagues 4. Claes and Rabarro = father and daughter 5. Angelica and Marco = teacher and student Elsa is almost bordering on obsessive love. __________________ My Anime Blog

2004-01-25, 20:15	Link #236
LordBrian Triad's Friendly Editor Join Date: Jul 2003 Age: 43	Almost bordering? I'd call it more like religious worship.

2004-01-26, 00:11	Link #238
tcrystalis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	I have all of these screen sots of Gunslinger Girl in a folder of mine and one picture I saw just caused me to bust up laughing last night. It is a shot of Elsa polishing her gun while looking at a photograph of Raulo just a little bit creepy there. By the way, does anyone know what the special meaning is to the ice cream for henrietta? I could not figure it out. Last edited by tcrystalis; 2004-01-26 at 04:08.

2004-01-27, 02:11	Link #240
Dark_Sun I LOVE YOU! Join Date: Jan 2004	wow..that scared me...i thought gsg fanservice was gone O.o.......that one girl in the newest episode is a brat.