(L+CR) Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso (NoitaminA)

[EroKing]

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Kaori

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[karice67]

...

I know that this might be slightly against the rules, but I wish to back up some of the points that DragoonKain3 keeps making. I'm not going to pretend that I don't read the manga...but the thing about it is, by this stage (episode 4/5 = up to manga volume 2), I also found myself questioning and revising what I thought was going on, because each chapter reveals something new about Kousei's issues.

For example, the idea that his issues come from the abuse he suffered at the hands of his mother, who beat him and drilled into him the idea that music should be played perfectly according to the score. In this episode, we find out that Kousei had some good memories of his mother as well, and that he doesn't blame her for his problems. Is it just because he's blocking it out and being unreasonable in forgiving her because she's his mother? Well, I'm no psychologist, but is anything ever that simple? Perhaps Kousei does need to look at all the feelings he has about his mother in order to deal with this, in order to accept that she did abuse him. Perhaps that is where at least some of his issues with playing come from. But Kousei needs to sort them out himself, and trying to argue that he should easily and quickly recognise exactly what his problems are means downplaying the complexity of his feelings for his mother. And I really urge everyone here to try to avoid that.

-----

Also, in response to the frequent comments about its style - especially the comic violence and somewhat overly dramatic performance scenes - I'd like to reiterate Flower's point about the type of story KimiUso is.

It's a story about 14-year-olds, and how they figure themselves out. Who they are, what they like and love, who their most important people are, what has made them who they are etc etc. That is why everything is so raw and over-the-top, because it's a representation of what being 14-years-old is like (or perhaps, one version of being 14yo). I haven't been fourteen for a fair number of years (and I can't say that I was anything like any of our four main characters either), so I really don't know how accurate it is as a representation…but if you don't like watching the somewhat insular and self-centered struggles of regular teenagers represented in a really exaggerated way (which, to me, is about as far as you can get from the somewhat unusual teenagers of a certain other noitaminA series represented in a really understated way), then perhaps this show simply isn't for you.

-----

Or maybe I’m just lenient with KimiUso because I usually watch it straight after Psycho-Pass…and it works very well as a pick-me-up after all the ‘grim-dark’ of the latter…

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by karice67

In this episode, we find out that Kousei had some good memories of his mother as well, and that he doesn't blame her for his problems. Is it just because he's blocking it out and being unreasonable in forgiving her because she's his mother?

"Forgiving her" would be a good thing. But he can't forgive her, because he blames himself instead. He blames himself for not being able to fulfill his mother's unreasonable demands. And he can't admit to himself that the demands were unreasonable.

It's the same pattern with Kaori. She cries and he relents. It's a repeat performance, as it turns out down to the illness. Instead of facing his issues, Kousei transfers them onto Kaori.

And Kaori has issues of her own (with selfishness and vanity, much like his mother seemed to have). If she does what she wants on the stage without taking notice of her accompanist, it's no wonder the accompanist ditches her. But it would be "rude" or "cold-hearted" to tell her that, right when she's crying.

The comical violence is problematic in this context, because it gives me the impression that the show is trying to downplay the seriousness of the issues both of them have, and that it's trying to romanticise co-dependent relationships.

This sort of peaks in "music is freedom"; I get a feeling that this is supposed to be a liberating message, when it's really a false dilemma, and a question of institutional context.

None of this is a deal-breaker for me. The direction is great, the music is excellent. The pacing is great, and I'm never bored. But when Kaori collapses at the end of the episode, I feel... nothing. I'm enjoying the scene for its technical beauty (the way she looks into the spot lights; the posture; the beads of sweat...), but if that was the end of her and Kousei would - as a result - never even look at another piano and emigrates to Hong Kong to be a construction worker I wouldn't much care, because deep down I feel it's just cheap melodrama.

I feel the story the show wants to tell is much more modest, and that the trauma is some sort of metaphor that should visualise the emotions involved, but it's presented too realistically for me to ignore that we're actually talking about someone traumatised enough so that he can't hear his own playing. For me, the show is off balance between melodrama and realism, never really settling, and that makes emotional involvment impossible for long stretches.

That, and Kaori is the sort of person I'd avoid like the plague. Tsubaki all the way. Lol.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dahm

They're really kind of mucking up Kaori's interpretation with this adaptation pretty badly at this key juncture IMO. Really playing up this idea of her apparent perfection and always being righteous and the one everyone always has to live up to including the establishment itself when in reality this is supposed to be a rather crucial moment when Arima realizes that she needs him as a grounding force and support not for her performance but for her dreams that are about to get crushed by an establishment unconcerned with innovation and personal interpretation as much as he kind of needs her energy and willpower to handle his issues in the long run as well. It really doesn't come across that way here again though and more like everyone must acknowledge Kaori who basically all but forces the guy into performing with her and making it through the whole thing rather than convinces him with the truth of their situations.

I feel like the anime is always making things way to much about Kaori and a sort of character worship for sure when really it's supposed to be more focused on Arima and how it's strictly him who feels this way out his own sense of self-loathing. Somehow Arima's idealized interpretation of her is being conveyed as the shows general interpretation of her as well basically and it's causing some problems.

Oh yes. I think it's pretty typical for stories to push characters as something but in this case it's a bit offputting. As I've joked, she feels too "LN'ized" where the anime tries to overplay her positive traits and thus kind of shoved in your face and hard to accept. Trying to push in that sudden swerve with a possible illness is quite cringeworthy. (oh look more sympathy!) It's the same thing I have trouble with stuff like Monogatari or Kawahara shit sometimes.

I understand a lot of this is due to Friend A's perception of her and she is supposed to stun the world as an idealized first love but it can get very overblown and I think the narrative is taking too much for granted.

I find this show best when people are just doing things instead of brooding over some overcooked melodrama. I just think it does so much better when it's not trying to go to grasp for more serious hard hitting topics. The moments right before performance at the beginning of episode 4 is a good example of what this show has to bring where it manages to just isolate the scene away from the outside world for some good ol' music and sound. Most importantly, it's to capture how the performers feel. And then during the performance, the music almost acts like a prop to the scene. As for the anime itself, these moments help the audience play along to the tone of the series, so to speak because it allows me to ignore the hackneyed stuff in favor of the messages it's trying to convey. So to me, this is the first truly strong episode. Now if only A-1 would stop pulling Shafts for the show. The end of the episode does raise concern given the anime's tendencies I've witnessed thus far since I don't really trust it to handle it in a decent matter, but we'll have to see.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

*snip*

How should I put this...?

The thing is, your criticism would be valid if what we've been shown is all there is to Kousei's character development in terms of his issues. And if what we've been shown is all there is to his issues.

But is it? Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. The only way we'll find out is if we keep watching.

As such, isn't it a little bit early to be complaining that the mangaka doesn't know what he's doing? Or that what he's doing is shallow? Why are you (and everyone else who's complaining) so certain of this just 4 episodes into a 22-episode series?

Kousei managed to get through one performance yes. But do you really expect him to overcome such a serious issue in just one week in the timeline of the story? Even though the audience loved it in the end, does this actually mean that he's overcome his issues and that we'll see him actually back at the piano in episode 5? The thing is, he still couldn't hear the piano, not even when he started playing again the second time. So if we do see him back at the piano next episode, then hell, I'll join you all in lambesting the mangaka. But that next episode isn't here yet, is it?

[cyth]

We get it, you read the manga, but the discussion is valid up to anime episode 04.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by cyth

but the discussion is valid up to anime episode 04.

Yes it is. But to me, it feels like you're all discussing what the writer (i.e. the mangaka) understands and wanted to depict about psychological trauma as if the series were finished, rather than as if we've only seen episode 04.

[cyth]

But those kind of projections people make all the time, I find plently I dislike about the characters, but it is my prerogative whether to stick with the show or not, others might make a different decision.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by cyth

But those kind of projections people make all the time,

This is something I really don't like about this fandom. But I'll drop it since it's not like I can do anything about it...I guess this is another series that confirms for me that I enjoy watching anime more when I stay away from forums...

Originally Posted by cyth

I find plently I dislike about the characters, but it is my prerogative whether to stick with the show or not, others might make a different decision.

But this (the fact that we all have different opinions) is completely fine with me. And that's why I'm just going to drop this issue here.


edit: and my apologies for anything that people think I shouldn't have said. If any of the moderators feel I said too much, please do delete my posts.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by karice67

How should I put this...?
As such, isn't it a little bit early to be complaining that the mangaka doesn't know what he's doing? Or that what he's doing is shallow? Why are you (and everyone else who's complaining) so certain of this just 4 episodes into a 22-episode series?

Yes, and no. That's why I don't use the term "shallow" to describe stuff because it's only been a small span of the actual story. Indeed, when people use the word depth, I'm thinking they're confusing it with complexity.

Still storytelling often follows a thought process that allows people to reach a certain conclusion, and that's just as important. However, in evaluation of anime, I think by certain points there are certain expectations.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but the problem is putting forth the series on a pedestal (with the assumption that it turns out right) is an assumption you're putting forth [you can't disprove a negative]. And since spoilers are't allowed, this kind of discussion is irrelevant anyways.

But that's not even the problem here. You're simply dismissing the points here based on your assumption; you didn't address anything specific but presented a host of rhetorical questions.

Anyhow, I would definitely say that the anime has definitely committed some rather odd choices in regards to tone and presentation that I think really are off putting that simply aren't going to be affected by plot choices. In the end, just accept that it's 2 different mediums and can have different effects and reactions.

[cyth]

Well, my biggest complaint about characters right now, regardless of the whole picture, is that Kousei seems kind of dumb. This has been addressed before, but right now he has no agency and really who else can you blame but the girls?

[Arya]

Originally Posted by cyth

Well, my biggest complaint about characters right now, regardless of the whole picture, is that Kousei seems kind of dumb. This has been addressed before, but right now he has no agency and really who else can you blame but the girls?

Well, he is supposed to have no agency. That's the result of that kind of relation he had with her mother. So I can't really see how the girls are responsible for it. Tsubaki is forcing him exactly because he has no agency. You can dislike her and Kaori's approach, but someone had to move him from the place he's stuck. The how is a whole different matter, but since we haven't seen any adults around, well, that's better than nothing.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but the problem is putting forth the series on a pedestal (with the assumption that it turns out right) is an assumption you're putting forth [you can't disprove a negative]. And since spoilers are't allowed, this kind of discussion is irrelevant anyways.

I don't think I'm trying to put this series on a pedestal. I think I understand some if the issues that people have with it (including the tone), but

Spoiler for Quick manga comparison until current episode:

that's precisely the tone of the manga. So I am a bit puzzled by you suggesting that the two mediums have presented things in different ways. The non-chronological presentation of what Kousei's issues are also a factor, but again, that was just as...how should I put it...'confusing' in the manga.

In any case, I think it should be obvious by now that people looking for something with a really serious presentation that they think befits the subject matter aren't going to get it...?

What I'm actually more worried about is the tone of the discussion - basically, reactions focusing on how viewers want something depicted instead of trying to understand how the show itself has chosen to represent things - because I've seen the spiral of negative reinforcement that this can create in several other series recently. I'm not saying that criticising the tone is an invalid response - some viewers will be able to overlook it as comic violence, and others won't. Personally, I see it as an effort by the mangaka to maintain a more light-hearted tone despite depicting some really heavy issues, though I do understand why some people think that he shouldn't have done that, and that the anime planning staff should have changed it. But the tone really isn't going to change, and I think that people will miss the story that the KimiUso is trying to tell if they keep focusing on their own expectations about how this kind of story should be depicted.

Anyways, I think I am going to drop out of this discussion. I do hope that anyone and everyone who keeps watching does find at least one thing that makes it worth their while.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by karice67

I don't think I'm trying to put this series on a pedestal. I think I understand some if the issues that people have with it (including the tone), but

Spoiler for Quick manga comparison until current episode:

that's precisely the tone of the manga. So I am a bit puzzled by you suggesting that the two mediums have presented things in different ways. The non-chronological presentation of what Kousei's issues are also a factor, but again, that was just as...how should I put it...'confusing' in the manga.

In any case, I think it should be obvious by now that people looking for something with a really serious presentation that they think befits the subject matter aren't going to get it...?

What I'm actually more worried about is the tone of the discussion - basically, reactions focusing on how viewers want something depicted instead of trying to understand how the show itself has chosen to represent things - because I've seen the spiral of negative reinforcement that this can create in several other series recently. I'm not saying that criticising the tone is an invalid response - some viewers will be able to overlook it as comic violence, and others won't. Personally, I see it as an effort by the mangaka to maintain a more light-hearted tone despite depicting some really heavy issues, though I do understand why some people think that he shouldn't have done that, and that the anime planning staff should have changed it. But the tone really isn't going to change, and I think that people will miss the story that the KimiUso is trying to tell if they keep focusing on their own expectations about how this kind of story should be depicted.

Anyways, I think I am going to drop out of this discussion. I do hope that anyone and everyone who keeps watching does find at least one thing that makes it worth their while.

There is a certain imposition of expectations on the story, no doubt. I mean certainly it can get to the point where it gets unreasonable and people start expecting the show being something it wasn't meant to be. At the same time, when you try to mix a lot of different approaches you tend to pick up a bit of more of a challenge when trying to tell a story.

And this I'd definitely say it comes down to the viewer on how they want to roll with the show.

Originally Posted by cyth

Well, my biggest complaint about characters right now, regardless of the whole picture, is that Kousei seems kind of dumb. This has been addressed before, but right now he has no agency and really who else can you blame but the girls?

This I think is something that I would roll with. I mean, at the same time, I can see why the guy has no will; there's no other reason to suggest otherwise and is most likely the point of the plot.

Originally Posted by Arya

Well, he is supposed to have no agency. That's the result of that kind of relation he had with her mother. So I can't really see how the girls are responsible for it. Tsubaki is forcing him exactly because he has no agency. You can dislike her and Kaori's approach, but someone had to move him from the place he's stuck. The how is a whole different matter, but since we haven't seen any adults around, well, that's better than nothing.

I don't agree that it's better than nothing. If done wrong, it's just going to drag him further down. Fortunately the key thing with Kaori seems to be that she would definitely see through to it at the very least, so at least it's not just some whimsical crap.

But yes, they are ultimately responsible for what happens since they did start... something.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't agree that it's better than nothing. If done wrong, it's just going to drag him further down. Fortunately the key thing with Kaori seems to be that she would definitely see through to it at the very least, so at least it's not just some whimsical crap.

I meant it within the show, not IRL (despite personally I do think that being moved is better than being left drowning). I wrote that bit with the assumption that they will succeed in some way. Since there are no adults around they are the only one supposed to move Arima and the plot. Otherwise there wouldn't be a story to tell.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But yes, they are ultimately responsible for what happens since they did start... something.

Definitely they will be responsible of whatever will happen to Arima, to a certain extent (I don't see him as dumb, he is just completely out of willpower). What I was pointing out was that they are not responsible for Arima's lack of agency, because that's the premise of the story. The story begins when Kaori appears on the stage because before that moment Tsubaki was out of options, powerless.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Arya

I meant it within the show, not IRL (despite personally I do think that being moved is better than being left drowning). I wrote that bit with the assumption that they will succeed in some way. Since there are no adults around they are the only one supposed to move Arima and the plot. Otherwise there wouldn't be a story to tell.

I sort of get that too, but my issue is the narrative definitely is forcing on a certain point. Sometimes this is good, other times when they pull those assumptions that it can be hard to buy. It's a given that the plot will revolve around them of course,

I think it's true that fiction must rely on contrivances, otherwise we'd get some pretty uninspired storytelling, so it's definitely up to the show to deliver something compelling and that's going to vary from person to person though at this point I'm just looking at the setup.

And no, the silly kid isn't dumb. He's just a silly kid.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And your second question (it's more of an accusation, really) doesn't even merit a response, but for the record - if you want to consider all anime by the same standard regardless of genre, demographic or intent than sure - why would you care about the content at all? It's all cartoons so what difference does it make.

Well, sorry for taking so long to respond to this, but... Dude, don't be so uptight.

I'm not "accusing" anyone of anything that they're not actually doing. Yes, I believe the cartoony violence is a staple of most anime, and this simple assertion certainly cannot be contradicted with examples from this one.
If you think those instances of slapstick humor and violence are unwarranted, sorry, but if so, you didn't realize the actual tone, genre, demographic or intent of this show, and instead, you're judging it against your own preconceptions.

Sorry if that's the case.

Honestly, not even Cross Game was completely absent of those kinds of scenes... And we won't argue about the merits of that one, will we?

[Mentar]

This was a show I went into with zero expectations, expecting to drop it after 10 minutes. Good lord, was I wrong

Usually, I tend to loathe hyperactive over-genki positive girls who force others to cater to their whims.

Usually, I tend to hate "damaged goods" MCs that went through traumatic experiences which caused them to stop applying their skills.

Usually.

Kaori has a positive charm and direct honesty which is very hard to resist. And Kousei manages to at least maintain a fundamental politeness and decency _regardless of his trauma_ which makes me like him. I appreciate people who manage to handle themselves with proper manners even when injured.

We'll have to see where this goes. I'll be resisting my urges to read up on things, but I can imagine that Kaori's massive attack to drag Kousei out of his shell may be dangerous in the medium run, because he will now chase her and use her as a crutch. "Chase the freedom", so to say. What if she doesn't reciprocrate? What will Tsubaki do, now that her smile faded when she saw Kousei look at Kaori?

Anyway, this is a charming story of interesting, likable people. Gets my full mark of approval.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by karice67

Kousei managed to get through one performance yes. But do you really expect him to overcome such a serious issue in just one week in the timeline of the story? Even though the audience loved it in the end, does this actually mean that he's overcome his issues and that we'll see him actually back at the piano in episode 5? The thing is, he still couldn't hear the piano, not even when he started playing again the second time. So if we do see him back at the piano next episode, then hell, I'll join you all in lambesting the mangaka. But that next episode isn't here yet, is it?

I probably didn't express myself well. I certainly don't think he's over his issue. I think we're in the set-up stage, and we're about to see Kaori's side better. I mean, there are other musicians in the opening, and they look like they'll bring something to the show, too.

The key point is that - when you're dealing with a fully blown trauma - you can't start with a performance in the very venue under the very conditions that first saw it surface. It's like dropping an arachnophobe into pit of spiders and expecting him to come out and say, "You know, spider's aren't so bad?" The outcome of this episode is pretty much what I expected (except for Kaori collapsing near the end). I think they've been very lucky to have that outcome, but I can't see that the show acknowledges this.

Instead they top it with Kaori collapsing, which muddies the point, because even if there is actually a regression, there's too much of a parallell with his mother, that the original issue gets lost.

What I'm actually more worried about is the tone of the discussion - basically, reactions focusing on how viewers want something depicted instead of trying to understand how the show itself has chosen to represent things - because I've seen the spiral of negative reinforcement that this can create in several other series recently. I'm not saying that criticising the tone is an invalid response - some viewers will be able to overlook it as comic violence, and others won't. Personally, I see it as an effort by the mangaka to maintain a more light-hearted tone despite depicting some really heavy issues, though I do understand why some people think that he shouldn't have done that, and that the anime planning staff should have changed it. But the tone really isn't going to change, and I think that people will miss the story that the KimiUso is trying to tell if they keep focusing on their own expectations about how this kind of story should be depicted.

I think you're making a good point here, with the spiral of negative re-inforcement. But other than shutting up and not talking about this aspect of the show at all, I'm not sure what to do about it. For the sake of posting, I have to focus on a point, because I get easily confused and side-tracked. As a result, it may well sound that I feel more strongly about the issue than I do. I certainly don't sit around thinking, "Oh god, that again!"

The problem I have with the tone isn't the tone itself, but how it's employed. It feels as if the show uses the tone to gloss over how severly stupid and potentially dangerous it is, what the girls were doing. And this one of my pet peeves with anime in general: anime isn't very good at dealing with the dark side of "ganbatte". And I see no evidence that KimiUso is any better in that respect so far.

None of that means that I don't appreciate what the show does right (for me).

edit: and my apologies for anything that people think I shouldn't have said. If any of the moderators feel I said too much, please do delete my posts.

I don't think there's anything you shouldn't have said, personally. You're pretty clear about your point of view, and you're always respectful. People feel differently about different aspects of a show. This isn't a surprise.

For example:

Originally Posted by Mentar

Kaori has a positive charm and direct honesty which is very hard to resist.

This is pretty much the polar opposite of the impression I had of her.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Kaori has a positive charm and direct honesty which is very hard to resist.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

This is pretty much the polar opposite of the impression I had of her.

Well... I gotta say I'm firmly in Mentar's camp, for now; she's certainly won me over, just like she did Kousei, so far - aside from the "honesty" bit. After all, she is kinda two-faced, isn't she? But we'll see how that goes, from now on.