[Manga] Chapter 361 Discussion

[Sandaime78]

Originally Posted by cani

oh well...
sasuke is unbeatable...I dont want to know who else he is gonna kill..first oro..now dd(?)
it seems like sharingan can do everything.it can construct a plane with just a piece of paper and a pen, kinda macguyver like.
oh man..i want sasukes ass getting beaten.just like against gaara..when he had no chance at all..
but i guess...if we see sasuke fail, the manga will continue forever!

Only redeeming features on Sasuke vs. Deidara fight is that Sasuke is not overwhelmingly beating Deidara (beating him regardless, but still). If you look at the last scene, Sasuke is almost out of chakra as well (not to mention all beaten up). In terms of destructive powers, Deidara is by far the most devastating opponent; however, its kinda sad that Kishimoto is illustrating Sasuke with the IQ nearly equivalent to Shikamaru and battle prowess to match. At this rate, even the Kages and Sannins will go down as weaklings. I mean, when we first witnessed the Naruto series, we used to think Kakashi to be a ultra-cool badass ninja; however, his power was quickly diminished when Orochimaru stepped in. That in a sense was understandable in a way since he was one of the legendary Sannin; however, now Sasuke is runnin the show (2 1/2 year's worth of training was enough to topple the 40+ years of battle prowess harnessed by Oro is just... NOT RIGHT). Naruto is severely behind by far, still a goof-off, and probably forever stuck in his puberty age and dream about naked girls and panties while Sasuke will grow stronger and stronger. Ugh...

[ZGoten]

The last chapter was realy good, though I have to say, I´m a bit afraid of the next: "The Final Explosion".
Sounds to me like dd wants to kill himself or something....well actually I realy like dd and don´t want him to die.^^

What I´d like to see is Sasuke getting asskicked by Tobi after beating dd, and then Naruto interfering and rescuing Sasuke....what propably wont happen, cause there are Suigetsu, Karin and this other psycho boy, which could easily interfere before Naruto.

[Sandaime78]

Originally Posted by Sinaura

If this arc ends without any combat from Hinata Shino and Kiba I quit.

You won't quit. No matter how much disappointed you are, you will end up watching it for the curiosity of "what would happen next?" If I was a man strong enough to do that, I would've quit this Naruto a long time ago for the sheer corniness of it all. However, I'm stuck like most of the people who agrees with my theory, because just like them my curiosity is also my biggest flaw.

[Suna no tate]

A)depth
when we've seen characters go in the ground they usually go further down then where the mines were.

B)chakra
the chakra that's contained in the mines is probably different then the body.

the mines are bigger then a basketball and are filled w/a high amount of chakra. it's even possible that the chakra seeps to the surface so that when it's stepped on the bombs ignites.

C)did itachi look down?
sasuke focused/actively looked at the mines. if itachi didn't focus his sharigan at what he's trying to analze maybe he didn't see it. sasuke didn't see the bombs in his body until he "zoomed in" on that area.

So let me get this straight... if sasuke is in a room with 1 foot thick walls and I'm on the other side powering up a jutsu, sasuke can focus and look through the walls and can see the color of my chakra on the other side...

but when sasuke or kakashi is looking at a water or sane bunshin, the bunshin is exactly the same as a real person in their eyes and they can't tell its a bunshin until the jutsu is released...

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

So let me get this straight... if sasuke is in a room with 1 foot thick walls and I'm on the other side powering up a jutsu, sasuke can focus and look through the walls and can see the color of my chakra on the other side...

but when sasuke or kakashi is looking at a water or sane bunshin, the bunshin is exactly the same as a real person in their eyes and they can't tell its a bunshin until the jutsu is released...

You didn´t quite understand him, did you?
He didnt say the Sharingan can see Chakra through thick walls, but small clouthes of chakra floating out of the ground.

And the Sharingan can´t always recognize if its an bunshin or not, because the chakra inside the body of the original and the bunshin are the same...

[Kakosan]

Originally Posted by elusive

A)depth
when we've seen characters go in the ground they usually go further down then where the mines were.

B)chakra
the chakra that's contained in the mines is probably different then the body.

the mines are bigger then a basketball and are filled w/a high amount of chakra. it's even possible that the chakra seeps to the surface so that when it's stepped on the bombs ignites.

C)did itachi look down?
sasuke focused/actively looked at the mines. if itachi didn't focus his sharigan at what he's trying to analze maybe he didn't see it. sasuke didn't see the bombs in his body until he "zoomed in" on that area.

A) This is not a convincing argument. In Narutoverse, even people without the sharingan can sense chakra at fairly large distances. I don't believe that Kakashi was below 10 meters down. He's not an earth-type, BTW.

B) Chakra is not an unlimited-type of energy. The amount of chakra in any of the bombs CANNOT be more than the jutsu user. I sincerely believe that Kakashi's charkra is more than any of the bombs in there.

C) I agree with this. But again, if the sharingan can look through solid objects (sensing chackra, even if you do not actually "see" it), I would expect Itachi to use this ability in his fights. After all, he's far more experienced with the sharingan than Sasuke. So, it's just bad luck I guess (or good luck for Kakashi)... that's why I'm afraid of "adding" abilities to the sharingan just for the sake of saving a fight for a character (in this case, Sasuke).

[Sandaime78]

Sharingan, just like Byakugan can see through the chakra; however, they do not grant an x-ray vision. I'm assuming their chakra sight works like a thermo vision of sort where you can see the images through a certain extent of depth.

ps. Regular bunshin is just an image; however, kagebunshin is an actual clone with chakra in it, so it is very hard to be distinguished between the real one and a fake one.

ps2. By the way, why are we being so technical and theory-driven? It doesn't matter how much we think it matters or not matters for Kishimoto is the only person who is fully in charge of this series and no one else.

[elusive]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

So let me get this straight... if sasuke is in a room with 1 foot thick walls and I'm on the other side powering up a jutsu, sasuke can focus and look through the walls and can see the color of my chakra on the other side...

but when sasuke or kakashi is looking at a water or sane bunshin, the bunshin is exactly the same as a real person in their eyes and they can't tell its a bunshin until the jutsu is released...

i'm not saying what i said is fact, i'm just attempting to theorize what possibly happened.

let me theorize again.

a foot thick wall and a foot of soil is not the same. again, soil is porous making it possible for chakra to seep through. the same way that if you buried a body a foot deep the stench would probably seep through so you bury it deeper. since dd can't see chakra he didn't know the bombs' chakra is visible at that depth. i assume dd had tobi bury the mines at a depth where they can be triggered. if tobi buried them 3,4,5, or 6 feet deep, the proportion of dirt to chakra would make them less visible the further down they are. problem is if they're that far down they won't detonate.

i don't get how bunshins are related to mines. a kage bunshin is the same as a real person chakra wise.

Sandaime78 is right. byakugan has x-ray and chakra vision, the sharigan does not. the sharigan sees chakra. sasuke didn't "see through" the dirt. he SAW THE CHAKRA eminating from it.

so itachi wouldn't see kakashi's chakra under the ground unless the chakra he's giving off is strong enough to seep through the soil.

look at when kakashi and zabuza felt naruto's nine tails chakra. they felt it because it was leaking from his body and into the air. chakra is contained in the body unless you're leaking it or performing a jutsu. neji didn't detect kisame's chakra until he looked at him w/byakugan. had kisame done a jutsu or molded chakra anyone would feel it.

i believe dd's mines leak chakra through the dirt and when you step on that chakra the bomb is triggered.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

A) This is not a convincing argument. In Narutoverse, even people without the sharingan can sense chakra at fairly large distances. I don't believe that Kakashi was below 10 meters down. He's not an earth-type, BTW.

B) Chakra is not an unlimited-type of energy. The amount of chakra in any of the bombs CANNOT be more than the jutsu user. I sincerely believe that Kakashi's charkra is more than any of the bombs in there.

C) I agree with this. But again, if the sharingan can look through solid objects (sensing chackra, even if you do not actually "see" it), I would expect Itachi to use this ability in his fights. After all, he's far more experienced with the sharingan than Sasuke. So, it's just bad luck I guess (or good luck for Kakashi)... that's why I'm afraid of "adding" abilities to the sharingan just for the sake of saving a fight for a character (in this case, Sasuke).

I really can't belive people are having a hard time understanding why Sharigan could sense the Chakra of the Bombs (well, I do understand that from those who hate Sasuke), let me first re quote HUnter's post that was direct and simple to understand...

Originally Posted by Hunter

-Sharingan allows to see the aura of the chakra, the mine weren't very deep and he could see the aura passing through the ground. In the case of the Mist jutsu Zabuza was simply too far from Kakashi for his aura to be seen.

So to your doubts:


How do you know Kakashi was not at 10 meters? in fact, look how deep he was when he did it against Sakura and Naruto, where she had to destroy the whole ground, it wasn't 10 meters but it sure wasn't 1 inch, also look how deep Saksuke was put into the ground when Kakashi did it the first time.

And then, Kakashi does not have his Affinity on to earth, but none the less, he has used Doton Jutsu quite a lot, so the argument that he is not an earth type is irrelevant.

Been that said, When Kakashi was underground, Itachi was not seen to the ground, as of now, Sharigan does not have a 360 degree vision, so, in order for Itachi to be able to see Kakashi chakra flow, he would had need to be focusing on the ground at a point where he was close enough to the ground, which is wasn't the case, not to mention, you don't know if Itachi saw him right before he jumped out of the ground.

This case of Itachi and Kakshi can be applied to what Kakuzu did against Kakashi when he was about to do Raikiri to Hidan, but here we do know it was because he was not focusing on the ground.

[remase2]

every action anime I seen has the same flow. It's like everyone has said here, the char start small and then overcome these bond type enemies. I mean honestly can someone be as analytical as sasuke in the heat of battle? and how sasuke is being set up he is unbeatable by naruto. Naruto needs the brains of kakashi and shiki with his demon power to beat sasuke. Sasuke was able to defeat naruto's teacher (yamato) b4 defeating oro, matter of fact naruto's entire team was defeated by sasuke alone. After completing his training Sasuke shouldn't be as powerful as oro cause how are you going to dominate someone who is as powerful as you?
In Bleach ichigo completed a training (bankai) that takes several years in several days eventually defeating everyone he came to defeat. Now he can go fully vizard after not completing the training to do that and there's no explaination for that.

I guess since animes are made for kids its not unreasonable for the author to do these adjustments. Who as a child would seriously sit down and analyze these animes, plus there's the whole weekly schedule which means ideas will be rushed.

[abazou]

Originally Posted by Sinaura

Before these eyes, your arguments are powerless. People aren't fanboys if they dislike a char, quite the opposite really.

Sasuke is becoming as stagnant a character as ever. Predicting his fights are going to be easy now; he uses the sharingan, is outclass by the opponent until he goes CS2, uses his sharingan to analyze everything about the opponent from reading his chakra level to checking his prostate, and finally says "before these eyes....useless blahblahblah". What happened to all of those little nifty jutsus Oro taught him, don't reduce a good 2.5 yrs of training to CS2 and chidori mastery Kishi. I guess the Sannins are all the same with their training.

If this arc ends without any combat from Hinata Shino and Kiba I quit.

He's not as predictable as Naruto, opens a fox with more tails.. turns orange/red and rasengan type of special. Then his senseis warn him about using it again

Also if this fight proves anything it proves that Sasuke's fights are the most interesting in the series, he always uses new techniques to win or overcome his enemy. Hate him or like him you have to agree that Sasuke V.S Deidara's fight is one of the best battles in the series. I just cant wait till team Hebi is fully in action! Oh i wonder when will kishimoto rename the series lol

[Suna no tate]

chakra leaking through the ground and the air is fine. But I'm a little bothered by how clearly sasuke saw the mine and the nano bombs with his sharingan vision. It wasn't a hazy blurry image as we'd assume if chakra was aimlessly leaking out of something. it was bang on clear with rigid definition. he saw those mines and he saw those bombs as clearly as he sees deidara's face. so I'm a little hesistant to accept that theory. his sight is bordering x-ray vision now, which is inconsistent with the past behavior of other sharingan users.

here's another question thats been bothering me for a hell of long time: so the sharingan can see color. How come none of the sharingan users in the past ever commented on naruto's very distinct chakra color except when its blazingly obvious? I mean seeing color doesn't seem to be a high level trick of the sharingan and yet sasuke for the longest time has never noticed that naruto uses red chakra which is way different from everyone elses? Has he been so blind for the longest time? Its not like he hasn't had chance after chance to pick up on this very simple fact and yet, until he actually met the kyubi, he thought naruto's chakra was pretty much the same as everyone elses?

[That Other Ninja]

Fanboys will be fanboys.

[ZGoten]

Sasuke did notice the special chakra of Naruto.
In episode 133 he said to Naruto something like..."I aknowledge you´re special" and he also saw the Chakra leaking out of Naruto right before the final Chidori vs. Rasengan. He even said: "For you too, it is risky to use this power".

Well...this battle was the first time Sasuke noticed but think about it. Sasuke hadn´t had a chance to notice it before. During the fight against Haku...he was uncounscious. During the fight Neji vs. Naruto...Sasuke was at training with Kakashi...And against Gaara, Naruto used his own Chakra, not Kyubi´s.

But as I said...Sasuke noticed the special Chakra during their second fight. Which means he was aware of that, even before he directly saw Kyubi inside of Naruto.

[elusive]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

chakra leaking through the ground and the air is fine. But I'm a little bothered by how clearly sasuke saw the mine and the nano bombs with his sharingan vision. It wasn't a hazy blurry image as we'd assume if chakra was aimlessly leaking out of something. it was bang on clear with rigid definition. he saw those mines and he saw those bombs as clearly as he sees deidara's face. so I'm a little hesistant to accept that theory. his sight is bordering x-ray vision now, which is inconsistent with the past behavior of other sharingan users.

sasuke clearly said he saw the color/aura of the mines' chakra. he did not see through the ground. the transparent ground image of the mine wasn't what sasuke saw. the image of the mine is for us, the reader.

[Kakosan]

Ok, ok, so in summary sharingan is capable of:
1) Reading every movement, even giving you a hint of future actions
2) See the color of the chakra, with ultra-high definition
3) Make capable of copying any hand-seal-based jutsu
4) Genjutsu (in all their degrees)
5) Teletransportation to nothingness
6) Probably I forgot something...

Seriously, is Kishi going to invent new "abilities" associated with the Sharingan every time Sasuke is in trouble??

Originally Posted by abazou

I just cant wait till team Hebi is fully in action! Oh i wonder when will kishimoto rename the series lol

I also was hoping some action from Hebi as a team. About the name of the series, sorry but Sasuke is and will be only a character used to fuel determination in Naruto. In fact, to be honest Naruto probably wouldn't have done anything in his life without this type of motivation.

Given the fact that Sasuke can see everything, most probably in the final battle Naruto is gonna use the Harem jutsu and Sasuke is gonna start nose-bleeding until he collapses.

FIN

[elusive]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

Ok, ok, so in summary sharingan is capable of:
1) Reading every movement, even giving you a hint of future actions
2) See the color of the chakra, with ultra-high definition
3) Make capable of copying any hand-seal-based jutsu
4) Genjutsu (in all their degrees)
5) Teletransportation to nothingness
6) Probably I forgot something...

Seriously, is Kishi going to invent new "abilities" associated with the Sharingan every time Sasuke is in trouble??

kakashi did 1, 2 (well kind of, he saw lee's chakra when he opened the gates), 3,and 5 and no one complained.

itachi did 1,3, and 4 and no one complained.

the only "new" thing sasuke did was see the "color" of the chakra. to say kishi "invented" new sharigan abilities to bail him out of fights is WRONG.

let's break down who did what 1st and when:
1) zabuza arc (before sasuke had sharigan) - KAKASHI
2a) chuunin exam (seeing chakra) - KAKASHI
2b) technically new (color) - SASUKE
3) zabuza arc - KAKASHI
4) after chuunin exam - ITACHI
5) rescue gaara arc (only done by kakashi) - KAKASHI
6) entering naruto's mind - SASUKE
7) black fire - ITACHI

7 abilities yet only 1 1/2 or 2 were "invented" for sasuke.

[shaselai]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

Ok, ok, so in summary sharingan is capable of:
1) Reading every movement, even giving you a hint of future actions
2) See the color of the chakra, with ultra-high definition
3) Make capable of copying any hand-seal-based jutsu
4) Genjutsu (in all their degrees)
5) Teletransportation to nothingness
6) Probably I forgot something...

Seriously, is Kishi going to invent new "abilities" associated with the Sharingan every time Sasuke is in trouble??

The ironic part is how the sharingan is so powerful yet Itachi single handedly destroyed an entire clan -1 of Sharingan users who undoubtly has members who *should* be equal if not better than him in skills - although he is a genius (so is kakashi too), he can't be at that age better than shinobis with tons of years of experience above him right? Anyway, Itachi took the "sacrifice people dearest to you to obtain MS" to a whole new level.. i mean there were 2 others before him with MS - and the clan still existed... so the rational thing Itachi shouldve done was to kill his family only...

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

chakra leaking through the ground and the air is fine. But I'm a little bothered by how clearly sasuke saw the mine and the nano bombs with his sharingan vision. It wasn't a hazy blurry image as we'd assume if chakra was aimlessly leaking out of something. it was bang on clear with rigid definition. he saw those mines and he saw those bombs as clearly as he sees deidara's face. so I'm a little hesistant to accept that theory. his sight is bordering x-ray vision now, which is inconsistent with the past behavior of other sharingan users.

As elusive said, what you are referring to was not what Sasuke was actually seen, it what Kishi did to give the reader the idea on how Sasuke disable the wall mine.

here's another question thats been bothering me for a hell of long time: so the sharingan can see color. How come none of the sharingan users in the past ever commented on naruto's very distinct chakra color except when its blazingly obvious? I mean seeing color doesn't seem to be a high level trick of the sharingan and yet sasuke for the longest time has never noticed that naruto uses red chakra which is way different from everyone elses? Has he been so blind for the longest time? Its not like he hasn't had chance after chance to pick up on this very simple fact and yet, until he actually met the kyubi, he thought naruto's chakra was pretty much the same as everyone elses?

You say none of the Sharigan users as if there are hundreds of them, actually they are just two, and one of them did not had the need to comment on it.

Now, lets see the part where Naruto has use Kyuby Chakjra in front of Sasuke:

A) VS Haku, Sasuke is unconscious

B) In the forrest vs Oro, Sasuke did not had the Sharigan on.

C) VS Gara, Sasuke did not had the Sharingan On.

D) In the Hall vs Itachi , Sasuke was on the floor Agonizing.

E) In the VOTE, Sasuke commented on the color of the Chakra, this is basically the first time Sasuke gets to see Naruto with his different Chakra source., so we can say Since chapter 229, We knew that Sharingan could see the Chakra color....


So Basically Sasuke have not noticed Kyuby Chakra, because before VOTE, Naruto had never used Kyuby chakra while Sasuke was seen him wiht the Sharigan activated. Furthermore, Naruto has used Kyuby chakra in front of people, and the best thing we hear is just "what is the chakra", or Blah Blah Blah.


Also, before this last chapter you haven't heard people talking about Chakra color while using their Sharingan, because it is something new, Just like how conveniently for Naruto, Kage Bushin sends the experience to the original, so Naruto could learn his RasenShurinken in Days.

Either way, even if the color thing wouldn't had been introduce, the SHaringan would had still been able to see the Mines because of the Chakra. in short, what Sasuke did is a basic Sharingan ability that has been there since always.

Now, if I where a Sasuke hater, I would had been complaining a lot about how he saw the Nano-bombs inside his body, instead of the other thing. even so, I really feel the same way I felt when The new Kagebushin ability was introduced, I just did not like the convenient timing of the introduction.

Originally Posted by shaselai

The ironic part is how the sharingan is so powerful yet Itachi single handedly destroyed an entire clan -1 of Sharingan users who undoubtly has members who *should* be equal if not better than him in skills - although he is a genius (so is kakashi too), he can't be at that age better than shinobis with tons of years of experience above him right? Anyway, Itachi took the "sacrifice people dearest to you to obtain MS" to a whole new level.. i mean there were 2 others before him with MS - and the clan still existed... so the rational thing Itachi shouldve done was to kill his family only...

The thing is that we are seen all this Sharigan pwnage because Sasuke and Itachi are that good, your average Uchiha most probably did not had that mastery of the Sharigan behind them.

And About Someone the cold had been better than Itachi, the answer is just NO, basically, even with tons of experience, Itachi was just too darn strong for any of them, as Kakashi said, there are people that are stronger than Him, but even younger than Naruto at 13 Age.

[yungz21]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

Ok, ok, so in summary sharingan is capable of:
1) Reading every movement, even giving you a hint of future actions
2) See the color of the chakra, with ultra-high definition
3) Make capable of copying any hand-seal-based jutsu
4) Genjutsu (in all their degrees)
5) Teletransportation to nothingness
6) Probably I forgot something...

Seriously, is Kishi going to invent new "abilities" associated with the Sharingan every time Sasuke is in trouble??

sasuke saw those ninja naruto defeated in the forest of death chakra color but he only saw it for a little because the curse seal was hurting him none of the things you put are new