Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Nightengale]

I'm still hoping that Jail too, has something up his own sleeve.



It's probably just a style decoration since it's [] shaped style is different from Uno's I shape on her tie, but it doesn't hurt to hope, right?

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

yea Subaru's mode 2 for Mach Calibur. I would want to see that form...if its repaired by that time that is...and Caro's mode 2 for Kerykerion...if Voltaire counts as Mode 2 for her already, but I would just call that an upgraded summon instead.

[Key Board]

Victory depends on tactics and match ups

If Dieci was cloned ten times and all them fought Nanoha, Nanoha would still win since she takes barely any damage from that kind of weapons

Aside from Vivio who will probably be the end boss/ Irui Ganaden of Nanoha, I think section 6 has much better hard hitters, but lose in numbers. Pun intended?

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I'm still hoping that Jail too, has something up his own sleeve.



It's probably just a style decoration since it's [] shaped style is different from Uno's I shape on her tie, but it doesn't hurt to hope, right?

Hmm... Maybe. Since he is a mad scientist after all, he should at least have some sort of personal contingency plan. Wait, the Jewel Seeds were stolen, right? No more mentions of those?

[Key Board]

I think the Jewel Seeds were reverse engineered as chips, actually

[Aaron008R]

Is that so? Well, it certainly feels like a waste. Those Lost Logia could be used for something like a Super-Drone due to their high latent energy potential

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Now for the air. Put all the remaining Numbers in a free-for-all. The bigger the fight, the more I can employ combined arms. If Hayate comes out this time, use some of my Numbers to engage Nanoha and Fate and use one or two to hit Hayate, otherwise just concentrate on the pair for a defeat in detail before Hayate gets onto the field. If I stick to close combat the girls can't power up some really deadly attacks to blast my Numbers...

I'm not sure I agree on that one. Firstly, not all of the Numbers are at home in the air, limiting the available force size. Secondly, a huge close-combat brawl is asking quite a bit of the Numbers' ability to precisely coordinate their teamwork, excellent though it is, and avoid fratricides (sororicides?). Hayate's lack of pinpoint accuracy certainly makes her vulnerable on the battlefield, but her wide-area attacks might make it risky to close with her, especially in groups. Nanoha could well be the toughest nut to crack by swarming, despite her relative weakness in melee, because of her demonstrated excellence at engaging multiple targets from medium to close ranges.

If you're going to play the swarming game, then I'd be inclined to commit a delaying force to hold up the three Aces in the air, concentrating on evasive and defensive ability rather than sheer offense. Meanwhile, focus on overrunning the Stars forwards, who have the least ability to disengage from a bad situation (Subaru can be fast, but I doubt she'll abandon her partner). If the Aces can be forced to come down to surface level to bail out their subordinates, then they can be swarmed effectively by the ground-combat Numbers, while the aerial Numbers provide overhead cover and cut off the upward escape route.

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Meophist

.I was going by the assumption that it'll be all-on-all battle, in which case I think Caro will be a bit too pre-occupied with Lutecia to boost Nanoha or Fate.

Have to agree that Caro, while quite the gamebreaker, has need to be present to use her Boosts. Lute can spam hers and are autonomous. I suppose it'll all come down to wheter or not they will engage one another and be otherwise occupied to use tanking spells on their respective sides.

In their direct encounters however, I'd say Caro is a probably the better summoner- though she'd probably lose if the contest was solely on personal offensive/defensive power.

True, but we still haven't seen any weapons the battleship has other than Arc-en-Ciel, which isn't quite the best weapon to use in the middle of battle. As such, I cannot rate its effectiveness.

Always held that a mobile assault base would be a good thing to have. If it had stealth capacity then it'll at least have a chance to be unsinkable [unlike modern aircraft carriers]. Also, a giant 10km wide beam dimensional distruption weapon is always appreciated.

And, well, that's the problem. RF6 is quite vastly outnumbered. The situations I posted was with a group vs the RF6. Since Lutecia and Zest will preoccupy some of the RF6, the Numbers has a 12-on-4 numerical advantage against the rest, and I imagine that the Numbers will take full advantage of that.

More like 9 combat effective Numbers seen so far + 3 freelancers c/w summons vs 8 R6 agent at the frontline, their commander plus medic and miniboss . Between them we have a scary horde of drones, swarms of bugs, a flight of dragons and the above mentioned battleship. Also, R6 may have combat parity since their cross training allows them to cover one another and face many times their own. The forwards have extensive training tagging [or attempting to ] someone who is both their tactical and raw power superior. Teana's X-fire shoot should prove to be a nasty suprise to the next person who encounters it >_<

That leaves the wildcards [Ginga, Vivio, unaccounted Numbers, ect] to show up and mess the scales around.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05

maybe signum knows some techniques to teach Erio on how to use his Mode 2 Strada more efficiently...with all of those boosters on each side of Strada, there seems to be boundless strategies with his Mode 2.

I don't see how though, Signum doesn't need a device to fly, so she'll probably won't be able to help him control Strada... Well, the 'safe' way that is.

It's probably a flight-combat lesson, learns things through battle

Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05

About the new opening, if they do the same combatant pairing as the opening, then Signum will surely take on Zest in the final fight.

I won't say 'final' fight, but rather Subsequence fights.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

In a way, he's in over his head.
At least that should give Signum and Strada's other forms some screentime for the next ep.

That's what it means to do things Ichigo-style And frankly, with all the safety issues going on, I don't mind this change one bit.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

And while their at it, show a glimpse of the other forms of the devices of the other forwards as well.

I doubt there's much to see, considering how the other forwards comment on Strada having the most radical change.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Meophist

That said, I don't believe the Numbers will die. At the very least, not all of them. In fact, I don't believe many characters will die at all. I see a high possiblity of Zest and possibly the General(why does it always have to be the guys?) and Carim dying but little beyond that. Although, I can't say I'll be too surprised if Lutecia dies, however much that defies convention. As for the most obvious possible death, Scagaletti, it's actually a little hard to see for me. The thing is, I don't think he'll mind, but I also don't think he'll be one to commit suicide. However, the thing that lends to him possibly dying is that I don't think it'll be easy for the TSAB to keep him in prison, for various reasons.

In any case, that's what I've thought of so far. I'll post again with more thoughts once I think of them.

But what could possibly the numbers live for once their benefactor is gone? They cant exactly go and say: "Can we join the TSAB? We can use our powers to help rebuild and stuff" They could possibly leave and become guns for hire...

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Victory depends on tactics and match ups

If Dieci was cloned ten times and all them fought Nanoha, Nanoha would still win since she takes barely any damage from that kind of weapons

Aside from Vivio who will probably be the end boss/ Irui Ganaden of Nanoha, I think section 6 has much better hard hitters, but lose in numbers. Pun intended?

Not really. Even an apparently blocked hit is a severe drain on magical capacity. We simply couldn't see how draining it had really been on Nanoha. Plus the effects of simulataneous hits versus single hits, add that Dieci wasn't quite blasting at full power...

[Nightengale]

First, let's remove the unknown factors and wildcards.

Jail, Vivio, Due, Ginga, alongside possible backup from Navy/Church like Acous, Chrono, etc.

Alongside that, we'll put it so that Zafira, Vice and Shamal are down for the count. Shamal isn't offensive to begin with, so not that she matters, fine or not.

Uno, Quattro, and Sein are the non-direct combatant backbones of the Number team. Their primary abilities aren't offense, but their assist towards the frontliners are of utmost importance. So, it depends on how well the 3 work, but overall, they won't be the actual fighters.

Deici is a direct-offensive support, but otherwise, she's probably similar to Sein and Quatrro in their IS respect. So, no rivals here too.

Tre and Sette are the close/mid-range flight-interceptors, and argubly 2 of the more powerful in the Numbers, seeing how they were quite even with Fate. It'll be assumed that these 2 crosses Fate out.

Garyuu and Lutecia will fight Elio and Caro. Voltaire and Hakuten-ou. Freid and Jirai-ou. Case in point closed.

Zest against Signum. Rein and Agito.

Subaru/Teana and Nove/Wendi. That's pretty much given considering they seem to work in pairs on that respect. Let's throw in Otto as extra firepower just in case.

Deed seems to be a fast-twin blader... and Cinque's a mid-range bomber. Although they don't seem to be very versatile in that respect, we can probably throw in extra factors and assume that they'll occupy Vita or something like that.

Vita will probably be Nanoha's support in the coming episodes. And we know for sure Vivio will be the l33t Saint, that is all powerful, so there's Nanoha covered right there.

There's still some extras right and left for both sides, but overall, things lean towards Numbers a little SO LONG as RF6 doesn't get any reinforcements.

There's still the question of Jail's stash of Relics though... Why bother showing him possessing so many, if only one (( or 2 )) looks like it's actually going to be used...Hmmm....

Likewise, I still have doubts of certain things. Like Verossa.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

There's still some extras right and left for both sides, but overall, things lean towards Numbers a little SO LONG as RF6 doesn't get any reinforcements.

Hayate's a pretty big extra there. Admittedly, though, from what we've seen so far she's a bit of a wildcard; if the tactical situation allows wholesale nuking she's a major factor, but her lack of accuracy (and we haven't seen much from her in the way of combat mobility, either) makes her much less useful in a close-quarters dogfight.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

First, let's remove the unknown factors and wildcards.

Jail, Vivio, Due, Ginga, alongside possible backup from Navy/Church like Acous, Chrono, etc.

Alongside that, we'll put it so that Zafira, Vice and Shamal are down for the count. Shamal isn't offensive to begin with, so not that she matters, fine or not.

Uno, Quattro, and Sein are the non-direct combatant backbones of the Number team. Their primary abilities aren't offense, but their assist towards the frontliners are of utmost importance. So, it depends on how well the 3 work, but overall, they won't be the actual fighters.

Deici is a direct-offensive support, but otherwise, she's probably similar to Sein and Quatrro in their IS respect. So, no rivals here too.

Tre and Sette are the close/mid-range flight-interceptors, and argubly 2 of the more powerful in the Numbers, seeing how they were quite even with Fate. It'll be assumed that these 2 crosses Fate out.

Garyuu and Lutecia will fight Elio and Caro. Voltaire and Hakuten-ou. Freid and Jirai-ou. Case in point closed.

Zest against Signum. Rein and Agito.

Subaru/Teana and Nove/Wendi. That's pretty much given considering they seem to work in pairs on that respect. Let's throw in Otto as extra firepower just in case.

Deed seems to be a fast-twin blader... and Cinque's a mid-range bomber. Although they don't seem to be very versatile in that respect, we can probably throw in extra factors and assume that they'll occupy Vita or something like that.

Vita will probably be Nanoha's support in the coming episodes. And we know for sure Vivio will be the l33t Saint, that is all powerful, so there's Nanoha covered right there.

There's still some extras right and left for both sides, but overall, things lean towards Numbers a little SO LONG as RF6 doesn't get any reinforcements.

There's still the question of Jail's stash of Relics though... Why bother showing him possessing so many, if only one (( or 2 )) looks like it's actually going to be used...Hmmm....

Likewise, I still have doubts of certain things. Like Verossa.

Nice summary. Right now, I am rather more eager to see more about the unknown wildcards with just eight episodes to go, they should at least show what they can do! Chrono and Acous should at get a chance to fight some drones at least. I'm itching to see Durandal in non-AoE action! Carym... I don't know. And the Claudia! Please don't tell me that it's just a decorative ship with nice armor plating for the show!

And about Hayate...

Originally Posted by Guppy

Hayate's a pretty big extra there. Admittedly, though, from what we've seen so far she's a bit of a wildcard; if the tactical situation allows wholesale nuking she's a major factor, but her lack of accuracy (and we haven't seen much from her in the way of combat mobility, either) makes her much less useful in a close-quarters dogfight.

Sadly, it would seem that what you said is happening right now. It was a given that being a high-ranking commander would entail some shaft. But not this much! She's the third Ace for goodness sake! And what's more, the way they portray her in the battles she was in is as a plain nuker. I understand that she has a incredibly large amount of magical potential, but please don't tell me that her being SS is just based on pure power.


Ugh. Hopefully, they can cover it up in the next episodes. If not, then maybe we could get an OVA or a Movie conclusion.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Meophist

And: *waves at Chaos2Frozen*

You're alive!!! Like Aaron said, I've been looking all over for ya. Was afraid that we shafted you.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I'm still hoping that Jail too, has something up his own sleeve.



It's probably just a style decoration since it's [] shaped style is different from Uno's I shape on her tie, but it doesn't hurt to hope, right?

Erm... Doctor Wily wasn't a Reploid until Megaman Zero... Unless...?

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Sadly, it would seem that what you said is happening right now. It was a given that being a high-ranking commander would entail some shaft. But not this much! She's the third Ace for goodness sake! And what's more, the way they portray her in the battles she was in is as a plain nuker.

Unfortunately, I think that's probably close to the truth. Hayate herself has indicated several times now that she hasn't got the accuracy and control that is Nanoha's (and to a lesser extent, Fate's) hallmark. That being the case, she pretty much has to use overpowered attacks where it doesn't matter if she doesn't get a direct hit.

Of course, it may be a different story when Hayate unites with Rein, who can then take over the job of targeting, but I very much doubt that Hayate is going to switch styles dramatically when she enters Unison Mode. The best we could probably hope for is that she can launch massive precision multiple-target attacks like a boosted version of Nanoha.

I wonder how much Hayate's development as a mage was affected by the fact that she's always had the Wolkenritter with her? I'd expect Signum and Vita in particular to be horrified at the prospect of Hayate actually going hand-to-hand with anyone, so her close-in melee and evasion skills might well have suffered from lack of real-world experience.

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Hayate's a pretty big extra there. Admittedly, though, from what we've seen so far she's a bit of a wildcard; if the tactical situation allows wholesale nuking she's a major factor, but her lack of accuracy (and we haven't seen much from her in the way of combat mobility, either) makes her much less useful in a close-quarters dogfight.

Oddly enough, she should be able to mimic the melee spells of her knights + Fate/Nanoha. The question is wheter or not she is trained to use them Then again, there isn't much subtlety in smacking someone with a giant hammer if they get too close That, or we get to see Diabolic Emmission again

I rather favour Teana coming ahead in any engagement she's in. Despite lacking in mobility, I'd rate her command skills and general sneakiness ahead of any of the Numbers. Even if the Dr does the long overdue sensor upgrade [I swear, if they fall for the same trick another time ] to negate her stealth and decoy, the homing AP bullet is not something to ignore. She is deficient in melee considering her specialisation- which is where the power hatchets come in Best chance, phase in the moment she slips and just "remove" her from combat.

Subaru, her opposite I can only describe as a walking cliche now. Scary should any of them kick in. Probably the only way for the Numbers to stop her is a massed melee attack, or a really good ranged one. Either is difficult, especially if Teana is around in an anti-missile capacity Get rid of Teana and it'll be a little bit easier. How much is entirely dependent on the resources committed to taking down a berserk cyborg with some really haxx boosts.

Signum vs Zest: Amazingly enough, I don't know who will come ahead in this one. Signum has been rare in cartridge use, things die/critically hurt when she does . Zest smacked off Vita [which is no small feat] although the cost to self was considerable. Funny thing for them to cancel themselves out

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Not really. Even an apparently blocked hit is a severe drain on magical capacity. We simply couldn't see how draining it had really been on Nanoha. Plus the effects of simulataneous hits versus single hits, add that Dieci wasn't quite blasting at full power...

Nanoha has been tanking heavy bombardment spells such as Phalanx Shift like nothing since the first season. The writer Suzuki has said that while Nanoha has above average magical powers, what's really monstrous about her is her magical defense towards magical attacks.

I frankly can not remember the last time she was injured by energy blasts, you need to physically SMACK her to deal any damage. Anything that goes pew pew pew is reduced to 10 damage

Furthermore, I'm not sure which fansub you follow, but kochi mo full power jyanai to wa ie, maji de? means that Dieci was surprised to learn that just like Hayate, Nanoha has been concealing her true powers.

[arkhangelsk]

Phalanx Shift is only AAA+ (Heavy Barrel is S), and blocking it severely drained her energy (as per the Nanoha light novel). Only the fact she had SB which allowed her to reuse some of the energy she had thrown out into the combat allowed her to win with 6% of magical reserves left.

The fact she has good magical defense just means she will block the shot. It does not mean that the defense does not drain her energy, or that she enjoys a No Limit fallacy.

Dieci was no doubt surprised her shot didn't get through, but there's no evidence to even say a more powerful shot won't pierce through, let alone 10.

Sadly, it would seem that what you said is happening right now. It was a given that being a high-ranking commander would entail some shaft. But not this much! She's the third Ace for goodness sake! And what's more, the way they portray her in the battles she was in is as a plain nuker. I understand that she has a incredibly large amount of magical potential, but please don't tell me that her being SS is just based on pure power.

The really sad thing is that so far she isn't even that good a commander (see all my comments in the Ep17 thread). To be fair, all indications suggest that this has to do with the low level of officer training (one cannot expect much of three-month training that can be passed by 8-9 year olds, even if we assume they had IQs of 200!) in the TASB, but that still doesn't fully exonerate her, since she's a Terran and has easy access to the much wider range of material on the Art of War that's available on Earth (we are such a warmonging people).

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Phalanx Shift is only AAA+ (Heavy Barrel is S), and blocking it severely drained her energy (as per the Nanoha light novel). Only the fact she had SB which allowed her to reuse some of the energy she had thrown out into the combat allowed her to win with 6% of magical reserves left.

The fact she has good magical defense just means she will block the shot. It does not mean that the defense does not drain her energy, or that she enjoys a No Limit fallacy.

Dieci was no doubt surprised her shot didn't get through, but there's no evidence to even say a more powerful shot won't pierce through, let alone 10.

I wonder if the same principles that allow Nanoha to execute SLB will also work for a hardened shield. It may explain why the longer she fights, the more difficult it becomes to overcome her defences [unless broken by a cartridge boosted attack ]. Pure speculation, but she's the the devil for real if it's true.

Someone posted a gif of the HV Barrel shot where it appeared she blocked the attack in 3 stages. There was a protection field [punched through quickly] set up, followed by an exploding cloud behind the shield [likely the jacket purge] before the smoke clearing and Nanoha standing with her heavy suit. Say, each stage takes down 1 power level, then the attack would have been reduced to AAA and therefore manageble IMO.

As it is, there isn't much info shown for Nanoha's new BJ form save that it's to counter the stress and power surge from using the Velka system. I'd assume it'll be very much heavier than her S1 and S2 suit. It's in her favour though that Nanoha has probably been battling all manner of interdimensional criminals and training promising TSAB cadets for the better part of a decade by now. That sort of experiance is difficult to assess, though it's likely she's been fighting for longer than some of the Numbers have been alive