[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Kind of, but it's meta: Lambdadelta provided the voice of the "Man From 19 Years Ago".

Altering your voice so its unrecognizable is far different than voice mimicry. I think all of us can change the pitch of our voice to mask it but imitating someone that you dont even hear that much is going to be pretty hard. Without some training it be damn near impossible to trick Battler in a full conversation.Then again Battler is incompetent so maybe he really was tricked!

Why build the guesthouse, get everything almost ready, and then not open it? In-story, the reason given was the Krauss didn't have the money to do it.

I think he wanted more money to grease more paws to get the permits approved. There is a probability that no amount of money could do this though.

[AuraTwilight]

And that I think is a misunderstanding that is going on here.
Shannon or Kanon dying is inherently the same as making an emotional decision based on an internal struggle. Shannon and/or Kanon being killed by Beatrice is a metaphor for Yasu actually deciding something and that is not ditching the role, it is ditching the thing that fills the role with humanity. That is what the whole "being human" meshugas is about...they become human by experiencing, but when you take that thing away you basically discard the humanity from those characters reverting them back to mere furniture as was done with Kanon in EP2.

How meaningful of a decision is it if she can just "revive" them any time she wants? Especially if this is intended to be a murder mystery game and the planned conclusion is "SURPRISE! It was all a hoax!"?

I'm not sure it's useful to think of things as 'fantasy scene' or not. I'm not sure that that's how the narrative actually functions. I think it's was some kind of self-defense mechanism the fans created when they were presented with what appeared to be magic in EP2 and it wasn't meant to be how the Umineko story was to be viewed. It allowed the fans to incorrectly throw away entire scenes as 'not real' without thinking.

I'm not really advocating that line of thinking, but there ARE scenes that are real/not-real. That whole scene on a repeated viewing gives me the vibe of trying to cover up Krauss' true nature, and the existence of Kuwadorian, and generally stoke the fires of speculating. In EP1, Krauss is consistently shown as having power and wealth over his siblings when he's actually pretty much worse off than them.

Maybe you're talking about how there's some kind of lie involved, right? But Umineko scenes that lie tends to still tell us something about the story or characters. Some of them, despite the magic, still retain the same beginning and ending as a non-magic explanation.

You're right. And the conclusion I'm taking from this is that this scene represents Krauss' and Natsuhi's confidence over SOMETHING (that something turning out to represent Kinzo, who is essentially the human equivalent of the gold).

This need to be thought of in terms of what Beatrice-Yasu was trying to reveal in EP1 and 2; the sibling arguments, Krauss showing Natsuhi the gold. Of course, Rokkenjima Prime probably never happened in that way specifically, but she wrote those scenes as a reveal to us of the background. It definitely tells us what she thinks Krauss and the various siblings know.

I mean, there's no particular magic in these scenes and if we dismiss them arbitrarily... well... what's to prevent dismissal of some, most or all of the other scenes without magic in them, leaving us with a totally swiss-cheesed story? (If we dismiss the magic scenes too, then we'd basically have an empty book.)

Okay, again, I never said anything about dismissing things. Chill out.

Also note that Beatrice also wants to cover things up as much as she wants them to be revealed, too. I just can't read this scene as anything other than trying to cover up the Kuwadorian/Dead Kinzo mess with a different conspiracy because it's not really relevant.

But Tooya-Battler's writing of a Happy-Happy Kinzo in EP8, I think, drives home this point; that the people themselves could've been different than they were portrayed in the media.

Good sir, I call bullshit. EP8 Kinzo is the real Kinzo.

Why build the guesthouse, get everything almost ready, and then not open it? In-story, the reason given was the Krauss didn't have the money to do it. Why didn't Krauss do something along the lines of agree to exchange the gold,
1) his share being 10%, and using that money the open the hotel?
2) on the condition that Yasu agree to finance the opening of the hotel?
3) then ask Yasu to support the hotel the way he'd asked Kinzo in the past?

Why does Krauss conceal Kinzo's death? In-story, he does it because the books aren't in order, so he can't survive the investigation that would normally ensue. If he were helping Yasu liquidate the gold, why didn't he:
1) his share be 10%, and use that money to buy back title to the island, etc.?
2) support Yasu as epitaph-solver and sole heir to Kinzo, on the condition that Yasu ignore the problems with the finances. (With Yasu as sole heir, none of the other sibs have any authority to investigate the finances.)
3) have himself publicly solve the epitaph, so Krauss is sole heir on paper, but Yasu really controls everything. (Again, none of the other sibs have cause to investigate.)
4) agree to let Kanon marry Jessica, on the condition that Jessica publicly solves the epitaph and is sole heir.

As for the survey, how about
1) Kinzo had bought out the nearest surveying companies some time ago
or
2) When he heard Krauss was surveying the island, Kinzo paid off its head
and told them to falsify the reports around Kuwadorian.

The answer to all of this is that Krauss doesn't know about Yasu and her gold, or atleast not until she presumably reveals it to all the adults at the conference. In order for this to hold up, it means that his investigation of the island didn't happen.

Altering your voice so its unrecognizable is far different than voice mimicry. I think all of us can change the pitch of our voice to mask it but imitating someone that you dont even hear that much is going to be pretty hard. Without some training it be damn near impossible to trick Battler in a full conversation.Then again Battler is incompetent so maybe he really was tricked!

Natsuhi isn't the Detective, so her perspective isn't reliable. She's also crazy. A not-Jessica going "Hello, Mother" is probably going to make her conclude it's the Man From 19 Years Ago regardless of who it sounds like.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Shannon or Kanon dying is inherently the same as making an emotional decision based on an internal struggle. Shannon and/or Kanon being killed by Beatrice is a metaphor for Yasu actually deciding something and that is not ditching the role, it is ditching the thing that fills the role with humanity. That is what the whole "being human" meshugas is about...they become human by experiencing, but when you take that thing away you basically discard the humanity from those characters reverting them back to mere furniture as was done with Kanon in EP2.

...

It is not deleting the character which erases parts of her personality, it is giving up on certain things or casting them away which makes the program, which is the character, obsolete.

And if she later changes her mind...?

Example: Yasu chooses George and "kills" Kanon as the resolve to pursue Jessica has faded and she knows she can no longer love both, allowing Shannon to "win." George is later killed. Having lost what Shannon stands for, Yasu "kills" Shannon as it is now impossible to fulfill Shannon's desire. However, she does nothing more at the time. Then Battler dies, so the "Beatrice" thing is pretty much shot, so she "kills" Beatrice, except Jessica is still alive and she's not a robot who deletes jessica_feelings.exe in an instant. Therefore she chooses to go with her third best option, which is being Kanon for Jessica. Kanon therefore comes back because... why the fuck not?

You guys act like people exist in binary states. Nothing prevents her from going back on her decision, thus nothing prevents her from just flat-out bringing somebody back. If you decide to be with someone, you can change your mind. If you change your mind, your little metaphor character - who exists only for you and thus has no effect on how anyone else perceives things - can come right back and there's no rule that says otherwise. It's cheating.

[Cao Ni Ma]

You all clearly lack love. Everything would be clear to you if only you where a japanese school girl that trough her own machinations got stuck in an unhealthy love triangle. The answer becomes obvious, commit serial ritualistic murder on all the family and then kill yourself.

[J the Drafter]

Episode 3 does hint that the Shannon and Kanon personalities can be revived after being slain. ...The whole personality death idea was unfair from the start, however.
Some forum called "The Meido Appreciation Thread" had two interesting thoughts on Yasu. The first was that Shannon was actually the real person, and that she created [b]Yasu[/] in order to have someone to feel superior towards. Shannon is pretending that the bullying directed at her is going to Yasu instead.
The second thought is that Yasu created Kanon when she started going out with George, so that she'd keep her promise to Jessica that they'd get boyfriends together.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

You all clearly lack love. Everything would be clear to you if only you where a japanese school girl that trough her own machinations got stuck in an unhealthy love triangle. The answer becomes obvious, commit serial ritualistic murder on all the family and then kill yourself.

It's true. Unlike Ryukishi, I have never been a young girl in love.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I reiterate. I don't think Yasu killed anyone.

Do you have a suspect in mind?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

AND? Who says the Man From 19 Years Ago speaking to Natsuhi is Yasu? It could be someone who knows about Yasu's secret who is doing this to get at Natsuhi for whatever reason. I'm liable to think so because Yasu is consistently portrayed as non-malicious.

Hell, maybe Battler's doing it to avenge his dickgirl childhood girlfriend or something. He seems to be in on the murders anyway.

I also thought something like that could be possible, though not for the same reasons. Let's check alibis!

Second call:
- Erika has George, Jessica, and Maria under observation in the cousins' room at the time Genji reports the call.
- Erika is with Nanjo during the call.
- Krauss has everyone in the dining room under observation during the call.

Third call:
- Erika has George, Jessica, Maria, Battler, and Rosa under observation in the cousins' room during the call.
- Kanon and Gohda come to Natsuhi's door during the call.

So if we assume that the same person made all of the calls, that means one of three things:

1) Genji made the calls.
2) Kumasawa made the calls.
3) One of the people in the dining room made the calls, and all of them knew about it including Krauss.

What's Krauss's incentive for going along with tormenting his wife in a plan designed to reveal that he committed a crime? Or, maybe the others jumped him and that's when he was captured. But in that case, what's the point of faking the letter from Beatrice? Why wasn't the Man From 19 Years Ago worried that Krauss might blurt out somebody's name on the phone? Why did Eva freak out and start pummeling Natsuhi like she thought George and Hideyoshi were actually dead?

[AuraTwilight]

Do you have a suspect in mind?

It's kind of irrelevant; I'm undergoing the thought experiment of Yasu-As-Murderer for the sake of the games, but also running them by "But what if these were actually happening instead of fictions she wrote, for the sake of motive-analysis"?

Because if we're going to go with "Yasu is the culprit in the fictions to cover up a real life culprit" then her motive as a murderer is "To kill people just because."

So, honestly, analyzing the Yasu-Murderer of the games doesn't really make any sense from my point of view. You can only analyze the real Yasu, who I'm convinced doesn't have it in her to be a murderer whatsoever.

So if we assume that the same person made all of the calls, that means one of three things:

1) Genji made the calls.
2) Kumasawa made the calls.
3) One of the people in the dining room made the calls, and all of them knew about it including Krauss.

What's Krauss's incentive for going along with tormenting his wife in a plan designed to reveal that he committed a crime? Or, maybe the others jumped him and that's when he was captured. But in that case, what's the point of faking the letter from Beatrice? Why wasn't the Man From 19 Years Ago worried that Krauss might blurt out somebody's name on the phone? Why did Eva freak out and start pummeling Natsuhi like she thought George and Hideyoshi were actually dead?

Krauss's incentive is "Do it or we'll have the police blow the lid on this whole dead Kinzo fiasco, motherfucker."

His hands are tied.

As for Eva, maybe someone came in and killed them for real, she's taking advantage to deal physical abuse against Natsuhi she's wanted to vent for a long time, or it's Bern and Lambda doing their stupid Diabolus Ex Machina bullshit as usual.

Honestly the whole thing kind of falls apart around the time Erika announces Natsuhi as the culprit. I bet you could call a Logic Error on something somewhere.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Honestly the whole thing kind of falls apart around the time Erika announces Natsuhi as the culprit. I bet you could call a Logic Error on something somewhere.

Couldn't you call Logic Error on the third call, citing Shkanon? Obviously Lambda would have to deny that, and in theory she could deny that, but...

[jjblue1]

I think we're taking Shannon and Kanon's death in the wrong way. What we're reading are stories. If in a story I decide permanently to stop Yasu's body from using the Shannon personality then Shannon is dead.

For the author of the story it's pretty easy to keep this resolution as all he has to do is to write the story in such a way he won't need the Shannon personality to be revived...
Now, a popular assumption is that the episodes are based on tales but what we read is Toya's rielaboration.

We're not really sure what's in the tale and what's just Toya's fantasy but all we need is either the tale saying Shannon is dead and never resurrecting her or Toya (who hasn't recovered his memory yet) to believe Shannon is dead and therefore never resurrecting her in his fantasy.

A different matter is Rokkenjima Prime where, if Yasu survived, theoretically she could resurrect the Shannon personality at will, at least in the time that was short after the Rokkenjima incident.

Years afterward it would be more difficult unless she was always faking the Shannon personality and therefore can get in the role easily.
Personally I tend to think in the beginning the Shannon personality was mostly genuine... or at least pretty close to Yasu's true nature... but with time Yasu would grow and her own personality would spontaneously change.

If Yasu survived, 1998Yasu would find not so easy to act as 1986Yasu.

The fact that the episodes are all tales can allow the characters to do things they wouldn't be able to do in RP.

For example is a lot more easier to kill people in a tale than to kill people in real life, which is why I've no problems with Yasu killing George or Jessica in the tales... but I think it would be a lot harder if not impossible for her to do it in real life.

Also, if we assume magical scenes were created by Toya in his mind, we've no proof Shannon or Kanon tried to protect Jessica or George from Beatrice in the tales.
Yasu might have tried to protect them in RP if the murderer was someone else, or she can be hesitant to kill them if she was the murderer though...

There's to say that the author of the tales might have thought the Shannon and Kanon characters weren't useful after George or Jessica's death and decided to kill them out... but they could have ended their usefulness prior it as well...

[AuraTwilight]

I think we're taking Shannon and Kanon's death in the wrong way. What we're reading are stories. If in a story I decide permanently to stop Yasu's body from using the Shannon personality then Shannon is dead.

EP3 invalidates the entire direction you're going with this argument.

EP6 too.

Also, if we assume magical scenes were created by Toya in his mind, we've no proof Shannon or Kanon tried to protect Jessica or George from Beatrice in the tales.

That's a pretty big-ass if, since EP6 Ange seems to imply that atleast some of the magic scenes are in there.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's kind of irrelevant; I'm undergoing the thought experiment of Yasu-As-Murderer for the sake of the games, but also running them by "But what if these were actually happening instead of fictions she wrote, for the sake of motive-analysis"?

Because if we're going to go with "Yasu is the culprit in the fictions to cover up a real life culprit" then her motive as a murderer is "To kill people just because."

So, honestly, analyzing the Yasu-Murderer of the games doesn't really make any sense from my point of view. You can only analyze the real Yasu, who I'm convinced doesn't have it in her to be a murderer whatsoever.

*nods* I agree. For me Yasu can murder only in fiction. Or in her mind like Maria does with her mother.
In real world she would likely be as powerless to murder as Ange when she was being bullied.
It's not so easy to kill a random stranger person. It's even harder to kill someone you care about.

It would be a little easier to kill someone you hate but still, as Battler said, it's hard to picture the culprit hated them all in the same manner, yet the order of the murders always changed.
For Yasu to manage to commit so many murders with so little motivation in a calm and rational manner she should be totally insane.

Also I seem to remember Bern herself said she wrote the stories to cover up what had really happened.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Do you have a suspect in mind?
Second call:
- Erika has George, Jessica, and Maria under observation in the cousins' room at the time Genji reports the call.
- Erika is with Nanjo during the call.
- Krauss has everyone in the dining room under observation during the call.

Nope. Krauss wasn't in the dining room by then. Natsuhi received the phone call by midnight and by midnight in the dining room there were Rudolf, Kirye, Rosa, Eva, Hideyoshi, Shannon and Kanon. Krauss was out of the room with Genji and went in the dining room short later.

My guess would be that Yasu handed the ring to Battler along with the truth she was the kid Natsuhi tossed away. Now... I don't know if she proposed the idea of the fake murders to the siblings or they came up with it by themselves... however likely the phone call was done in front of them.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Third call:
- Erika has George, Jessica, Maria, Battler, and Rosa under observation in the cousins' room during the call.
- Kanon and Gohda come to Natsuhi's door during the call.

So if we assume that the same person made all of the calls, that means one of three things:

1) Genji made the calls.
2) Kumasawa made the calls.
3) One of the people in the dining room made the calls, and all of them knew about it including Krauss.

There's a tape recorder in the Ushiromiya house.
If Yasu recordered on it her voice she could have one of the Ushiromiya playing it at the phone... though I'm not sure Yasu would be able to predict Natsuhi's replies and record a tape accordingly.

There's also the possibility someone else is faking being Yasu. Natsuhi is scared and she had just woken up. She could be tricked easily.

The third possibility is that Kanon isn't really out of the door. His voice and Gohda sound a little shrill. Gohda could have been faking Kanon's voice while Kanon made the call from a nearby phone. As soon as Natsuhi would put down the receiver and go to open the door he would put down the receiver as well and reach the door before Natsuhi were to open it.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Why wasn't the Man From 19 Years Ago worried that Krauss might blurt out somebody's name on the phone?

We're told Krauss' eyes and hears are covered so he might not have seen who had kidnapped him.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

EP3 invalidates the entire direction you're going with this argument.

EP6 too.

I said 'if'.
Also in Ep 3 Shannon is resurrected in a magic scene and the same can be said for Kanon therefore we don't know if this really happened. Jessica might have been pretending to hear Kanon's voice and Shannon might have never wake up to George's call.

Since I divide meta/fantasy scenes from... let's call them 'apparently real' scenes (since we can never be sure if they really happened or not) as far as I'm involved Shannon and Kanon would resurrect for REAL only if this were to happen in a not meta, not fantasy scene.

Does this make my idea more clear?


...

I can't remember Shannon and Kanon dying in Ep 6...

Kanon is 'deleted' in a fantasy scene... (actually once the people is closed in rooms, Kanon's presence is fictional as he and Shannon can't be in two different places at once) and resurrected in another fantasy one. As said before I discharge the idea of fantasy resurrections as real resurrection.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's a pretty big-ass if, since EP6 Ange seems to imply that atleast some of the magic scenes are in there.

If you believe Ep 6 Ange is real Ange yes.
I don't. As far as I'm involved Ange and Featherine never met so that discussion is purely fictional and therefore it can contain things that aren't true or Ange might be aware of the meta/fantasy world because she hadn't read just the real books but also the meta/fantasy scenes.

I guess everything depends on what you chose to believe.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Beatrice was always shown to have the power of resurrection/reconstruction in fantasy scenes but its mostly a temporary thing. Once a thing or person got broke she could use magic to prop it back up, but it would eventually fall apart again. Thats the best I can come up with to try and explain this situation in terms of meta foolery that we've been shown.

It does seem like cheating because the only way out of EP3s 1st twilight that I could come up with was a name trick or a personality trick. It involved dodging a red in a way that wasnt really all that clever or well executed.

[AuraTwilight]

I said 'if'.
Also in Ep 3 Shannon is resurrected in a magic scene and the same can be said for Kanon therefore we don't know if this really happened. Jessica might have been pretending to hear Kanon's voice and Shannon might have never wake up to George's call.

Since I divide meta/fantasy scenes from... let's call them 'apparently real' scenes (since we can never be sure if they really happened or not) as far as I'm involved Shannon and Kanon would resurrect for REAL only if this were to happen in a not meta, not fantasy scene.

Does this make my idea more clear?

The fantasy scenes are laden with symbolism. They obscure the truth but do not totally replace it with a lie. If magic shows us Shannon and Kanon coming back from the dead, there is a reason for it. Fantasy does not exist in a void, but it embellishes what already exists.

...

I can't remember Shannon and Kanon dying in Ep 6...

Kanon is 'deleted' in a fantasy scene... (actually once the people is closed in rooms, Kanon's presence is fictional as he and Shannon can't be in two different places at once) and resurrected in another fantasy one. As said before I discharge the idea of fantasy resurrections as real resurrection.

Kanon is described as being dead, using loophole to save Battler. The Fantasy scenes Mean something. If you're going to ignore them you might as well not read Umineko.

If you believe Ep 6 Ange is real Ange yes.

It doesn't matter if she's real or not. She's describing and reading a manuscript, and aside from EP6's manuscript, she describes EP4's manuscript, and her death in it, meaning either she read the alternate 1998 or she read a Meta-World scene.

As far as I'm involved Ange and Featherine never met so that discussion is purely fictional and therefore it can contain things that aren't true or Ange might be aware of the meta/fantasy world because she hadn't read just the real books but also the meta/fantasy scenes.

Why include it if it doesn't give us any information we can use? Ryukishi, for all his faults, doesn't give us meaningless padding and fluff just because. His Fantasies exist to deliver a point.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Beatrice was always shown to have the power of resurrection/reconstruction in fantasy scenes but its mostly a temporary thing. Once a thing or person got broke she could use magic to prop it back up, but it would eventually fall apart again. Thats the best I can come up with to try and explain this situation in terms of meta foolery that we've been shown.

It does seem like cheating because the only way out of EP3s 1st twilight that I could come up with was a name trick or a personality trick. It involved dodging a red in a way that wasnt really all that clever or well executed.

I think Beatrice's power of resurrection works only in fantasy and is a trick in the real world.

In case of the candy in Ep 2 for example she probably replaced Maria's broken one with the one Maria handed to Kanon short before.

In fantasy scenes is pretty easy to resurrect people as many times you want... unless like with Maria and Sakutarou for some reason you're refusing/feel unable to resurrect something.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The fantasy scenes are laden with symbolism. They obscure the truth but do not totally replace it with a lie. If magic shows us Shannon and Kanon coming back from the dead, there is a reason for it. Fantasy does not exist in a void, but it embellishes what already exists.

I agree on the fact that fantasy might have a symbolic value. However we don't necessarily know which was in that moment.

In Ep 5 Natsuhi was shown talking with Beatrice when she actually was alone.In Ep 3 Jessica talking with Kanon might be merely her finding strenght through picturing Kanon with her. Also George might have been tricked into believing Shannon was faking her death. Somewhere in the text is said both he and Jessica had wondered if it was possible Kanon and Shannon were faking their death so that scene might be symbolic for his deception.

...

Though I can't really tell what's the truth, merely how I interpretate it...

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Kanon is described as being dead, using loophole to save Battler. The Fantasy scenes Mean something. If you're going to ignore them you might as well not read Umineko.

I always give to the fantasy scenes a meaning but it's evidently different from yours.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It doesn't matter if she's real or not. She's describing and reading a manuscript, and aside from EP6's manuscript, she describes EP4's manuscript, and her death in it, meaning either she read the alternate 1998 or she read a Meta-World scene.
Why include it if it doesn't give us any information we can use? Ryukishi, for all his faults, doesn't give us meaningless padding and fluff just because. His Fantasies exist to deliver a point.

I think we're arguing merely because we give a different interpretation to the fantasy scenes, and therefore we come to different conclusions.


When Hachijo talks with Ange they say:

"......End of the Golden Witch. I've read that one. ......Seems you love killing off other people's families."

"Is that why you came all this way? Just to say that...? I think not, final descendant of the Ushiromiya family."

In her latest forgery, 'End', she killed off seven of my relatives, at least during the actual story.

No, if you count 'Alliance' and 'Banquet', the other forgeries she's made before now, then she's killed off most of my family in horrible ways, over and over again...

Ange talks about Hachijo's books killing her family, not her.

Ange's death is mentioned when the discussion switch to Meta Ange and Featherine:

"I find you to be truly interesting, child of man. ......Your charming nature is the perfect thing to alleviate my boredom."
"Yeah, well, I don't see anything charming about this. ......Why am I alive? ...Wasn't I killed in a pretty nasty way for breaking the rule about revealing my name...?"

I think the info about the books that are 'real' are the ones exchanged between Ange and Hachijo in that first part, not the ones exchanged between Meta Ange and Featherine after

There's another scene that mention Ange's death and that's the final discussion between Ange and Hachijo at the end... though we don't know if Ange is talking about how she died for revealing the truth to Battler or of how she died on Rokkenjima killed by the Sumadera. It's possible that Hachijo's book contained that dead and not the meta one.

In my interpretation Ange and Hachijo are talking of the scene in which Ange dies on Rokkenjima and the meaning of it, it's merely to inform us that Ange's death on Rokkenjima was fiction and didn't happen in the real world.

It's all a matter of interpretations and choices in what to believe.

[Cao Ni Ma]

That whole scene was borderline meta. Time slowed down, she had some knowledge of what was going to happen eventually in the story but forgot some pieces. It felt more like the vacillations of a person just getting up while under the influence of some drugs. That or some sort of false awakening dream, wasn't she sleeping before the scene?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

That whole scene was borderline meta. Time slowed down, she had some knowledge of what was going to happen eventually in the story but forgot some pieces. It felt more like the vacillations of a person just getting up while under the influence of some drugs. That or some sort of false awakening dream, wasn't she sleeping before the scene?

*nods* Yes, Ange woke up in Hachijo's house. Also Ange says in Ep 6 that she was sure the meeting with Hachijo never happened and Ep 8 also agreeing with the fact the meeting we're shown in Ep 8 never took place.