Fate/ Series Q&A

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

She's a great Servant, but I'd hesitate to call her one of the 'Best', since I'd put Berserker, Lancer and Saber on a higher level and Archer and maybe Caster on an equivalent or close to equivalent level. She's definitely not as skilled in close combat as most of the others, so her victories would probably depend on her use of Pegaus and maybe her Mystic Eyes.

Well, Rider would trivially beat Caster, I'd imagine, because she has Pegasus and decent Magic Resistance. As for Archer, Rider most definitely out-ranks him in terms of raw strength, and in terms of her NP (you can directly compare them pretty well, because Sakura and Rin have the same prana output and (presumably) similar characteristics, so the strengths and weaknesses that they impart on their servants should probably be roughly the same). However, he could quite possibly beat her, because of his True Eye of the Mind. Then again he's stated to be even in a fight with Saber, so....

As for Lancer, I don't think he's above Rider, actually. Yeah, Gae Bolg (the stabbing version) would kill her, but I don't think he'd ever get close enough to even use it. OTOH, Bellophron would undoubtedly kill him. Other than that, they're about equal, I believe.

But, the one servant who can undoubtedly take down Rider is Saber, as Fate proves (unless Rider has help, like in HF). So, she's not a huge problem for Saber to win the war. Of course, a full-powered Rider would be working under Sakura anyway, and thus there is precisely zero chance of her fighting Saber, since Saber is Shirou's servant (or, at full power, Rin's).

And, yeah, Rider is also very good at dealing with masters. She's fast and her Bloodfort and Mystic Eyes can cause them serious problems, if not kill them outright. The problem, again, is that Sakura wouldn't allow it (in most cases) and Shinji is an utterly awful master.

[orangejuicetang]

Well, first off, I'm not comparing Rider under purely stats, but overall combat capability. While Rider has the highest overall speed, Lancer has the highest instantaneous speed/acceleration. And, well, according to Nasu, Lancer has the advantage over Rider since he's apparently an 'excellent monster exterminator, meaning Rider's in for a tough fight.' Actually, let me just post the comment.

The two boasting the most outstanding speed in the game. Rider, able to move like a bullet and race around the battle field vs Lancer, able to counter attackers with a lance with the speed of gods, while standing still. In average speed, Rider is faster, but in immediate maximum output, Lancer will win. While Rider has several different types of Noble Phantasms, Lancer also has protective ability from rune sorcery, hence counter measures from her mystic eyes. Against an expert monster exterminator like Lancer, one who has a monster alignment such as Rider might seem to be in for a tough fight....!?

Servants with a MGI of B (I think, might be lower) can resist the petrification of her eyes after making a successful roll but will still have each stat lowered a rank. Bloodfort actually doesn't work that well against Masters, since it can be resisted with magic and takes a long time to set up. It's best for 'food', as Fate explains.

Also, against Gilgamesh, doesn't he pull out some 'mirror shield magic reflector' out of GoB against Ilya? Considering Rider's origin, that could probably allow him to deal with her.

[Arbitres]

It all depends on the circumstances of the battle, then. If Gilgamesh had the preemptive he could probably snuff out both Lancer and Rider (if they were completely offguard/unprepared for GoB)

And Rider could pretty much own Archer/Gil if she got the preemptive if she was Sakura's servant and not Shinji's. If the circumstances can be tweaked and changed, I bet the battles would alittle differently.

Shinji doesn't deserve a servant. Sakura should get one on the condition she kills Shinji. Shirou is an incompetent master that I dislike outside of the Shirou-Archer relationship.

Rin is the standard-bearer for master. The truth of the matter is it all depends on prana. We heard about Sojiro's case because he was dependant on Caster, he probably would dissipate near morning or late morning. (anime, haven't played VN yet... >< I'm getting it soon, though.)

If Gilgamesh was Shirou's servant he would absolutely blow. "King of pwnd" being his new title... What I mean is it's prana/master dependant along with the strategy/environment they are facing off in.

Rider is so obviously skilled at open areas while Gilgamesh is as well. Archer would probably prefer small areas, the same goes for True Assassin while Assassin prefers even ground. Berserker tears down the environment, basically. Lancer is all for open environments, but he has proven he is good with small/medium areas, too. (example: hallways.)

Inherent skill also plays a part in this. But i'll let others take it from here, they probably are better explaining things then me.

;_; I hoped I helped.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

It all depends on the circumstances of the battle, then. If Gilgamesh had the preemptive he could probably snuff out both Lancer and Rider (if they were completely offguard/unprepared for GoB)

If Gil fights seriously, Gil wins. Full stop. He just pulls out Ea and levels the whole damn town....

And Rider could pretty much own Archer/Gil if she got the preemptive if she was Sakura's servant and not Shinji's.

With Archer, she's about equal, actually (judging by the one time they fight). With Gil, he'd kill her for sure, if he was being serious (which he never is, so...).

If the circumstances can be tweaked and changed, I bet the battles would alittle differently.

Which is pretty much exactly what the game does, in fact....

Some servants who do very poorly in some routes do a hell of a lot better in others.

Shinji doesn't deserve a servant. Sakura should get one on the condition she kills Shinji.

I take it you haven't played the game, then....

Shirou is an incompetent master that I dislike outside of the Shirou-Archer relationship.

He gets a lot better in the game, especially in the later two routes.

Rin is the standard-bearer for master. The truth of the matter is it all depends on prana.

Yeah. There's only one other person in FSN who can (in theory) match Rin, and she's heavily limited by her circumstances (excepting nearer the end of one of the routes).

We heard about Sojiro's case because he was dependant on Caster, he probably would dissipate near morning or late morning.

Actually, he's not dependant on Caster, once he's been summoned. In the game, he sticks around at the temple for a good week or so after Caster is killed. His true 'master' is the temple (which is why he can't leave the gate), since Caster (as a servant) can't act as his anchor. She simply provided him with a pool of prana sufficient to last two weeks and told him to stand there and defend the gate.

(anime, haven't played VN yet... >< I'm getting it soon, though.)

Yeah, thought not.... Well, I'll avoid spoilering it for you.

If Gilgamesh was Shirou's servant he would absolutely blow. "King of pwnd" being his new title...

I dunno. GoB doesn't seem to have a particularly large prana requirement. Of course, if he were Shirou's servant, his circumstances would have had to have changed a lot, since that would mean that he had been summoned in this war, and not in the last one. In that case, he may well have sucked, especially since Shirou wouldn't allow him to eat souls, and I doubt Shirou would be too fond of the idea of supplying him with prana the alternative way....

Archer would probably prefer small areas

Not really. Archer is better in areas where he can use his mind more, or where he can snipe people from long range. Rider is probably better in open areas, in general, but because of the situations she tends to get into, that's not always the case (especially when she has to protect her master).

Inherent skill also plays a part in this. But i'll let others take it from here, they probably are better explaining things then me.

Yeah, you're missing quite a bit from not having played the game (yet). The anime doesn't cover everything in enough detail to allow you to make these judgements. Hell, even playing just the original game (and not Hollow Ataraxia etc.) limits your knowledge somewhat, apparently.

[Arbitres]

I don't have the good fortune of the VN... Yet. Still, thanks for clearing that up. I pretty much suck at explanation, i've only watched the anime. But -hopefully- that will change next week. I got the URL for the english patch and everything. Heres to hoping it works...

[orangejuicetang]

Would you consider Rin the standard for a Master though? Because isn't she 'lol genius, eventually one of top 100 in entire association'. Although it is rather hard, since the master's are usually 'prodigy' or 'failure' with really no in between. I'd say the standard is more Kiritsugu, Bazette, and maybe Waver.

And just one thing. If any of the Servants get a preemptive/surprise attack on the other, they'll win, because pretty much all of them have a sure-kill NP or attack. Except maybe against Berserker, because of his passive Godhand defense, but otherwise yeah.

Also, Gilgamesh under Shirou wouldn't be that different. The only real difference is that he wouldn't be able to spam Ea and would rely more on GoB, but he doesn't really use Ea anyway. He has independent action A (A+ after getting doused with grail mud) so he doesn't really use that much prana anyway. And GoB has a pretty small prana requirement. True, he wouldn't eat souls or 'lol prana transfer', but he wouldn't need too. TBH, Gilgamesh doesn't even really need to eat the orphans to stay in the world since he has a real body that the World won't try to crush, but apparently according to some theories, he was preparing for the next war. On the other hand, he might decide to randomly skewer Shirou right away for being a 'faker', or he might not.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Would you consider Rin the standard for a Master though? Because isn't she 'lol genius, eventually one of top 100 in entire association'. Although it is rather hard, since the master's are usually 'prodigy' or 'failure' with really no in between. I'd say the standard is more Kiritsugu, Bazette, and maybe Waver.

He didn't say "standard", he said "standard-bearer", as in best, not average. Although, to be fair, Bazette and Kiritsugu are actually better masters, probably, because, whilst they can't supply their servant with as much prana, they're a lot more useful as combatants (Kiritsugu can take down enemy masters pretty well, and Bazette can actually kill servants).

And just one thing. If any of the Servants get a preemptive/surprise attack on the other, they'll win, because pretty much all of them have a sure-kill NP or attack. Except maybe against Berserker, because of his passive Godhand defense, but otherwise yeah.

Even with Berserker, they would kill him in a lot of cases. Rider quite possibly could take all 12 lives with Bellophron, and Saber probably could with Excalibur.

He has independent action A (A+ after getting doused with grail mud) so he doesn't really use that much prana anyway.

Actually, I'm not sure that IA reduces prana consumption. I think that it just reduces the reliance on the master acting as an anchor, therefore allowing them to reduce their prana usage when they lack a master.

And GoB has a pretty small prana requirement.

Well, we don't really know its prana requirement. But, it probably is pretty low, yeah.

TBH, Gilgamesh doesn't even really need to eat the orphans to stay in the world since he has a real body that the World won't try to crush, but apparently according to some theories, he was preparing for the next war.

I'm not sure about that, actually. Even though he has a real body, he's still a contradiction (because he should be dead, according to Akasha), so it's still trying to crush him. What his body gives him, I believe, is an anchor, meaning that he no longer needs a master.

[Polar_Lord]

Does Projecting a Conceptual Weapon lower the power of its concept, so to speak? I know that Archer's projection lowers weapons by 1 rank but does it also apply to the weapon's effect? e.g. Rho Aias.

In the case of GOB, wouldn't Protection from Arrows be nullified since it doesn't work against attacks with great area of effect. Since Gil tends to fire a lot of them at a time, isn't this counted as great area of effect?

Btw, how strong is Bazette actually if she can match Servants? I haven't played Hollow Ataraxia but from Fate/Unlimited Codes, I know that she has rune enhanced hand-to-hand combat and some kind of counter NP so I would wager that she is similar to Kuzuki?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Polar_Lord

Does Projecting a Conceptual Weapon lower the power of its concept, so to speak? I know that Archer's projection lowers weapons by 1 rank but does it also apply to the weapon's effect? e.g. Rho Aias.

It's never made clear. The weapons Archer projects are lowered by a rank, but it's not certian what that actually means in terms of their total strength. I presume it would be weaker, though, since his projection isn't perfect (hence the reduction in rank).

Btw, how strong is Bazette actually if she can match Servants? I haven't played Hollow Ataraxia but from Fate/Unlimited Codes, I know that she has rune enhanced hand-to-hand combat and some kind of counter NP so I would wager that she is similar to Kuzuki?

She can't match a servant in a fight. If you put her up against a servant on her own, she'd be screwed. But, in conjunction with a servant of her own, she's deadly, because her NP allows her to counter the trump card of any servant and instantly kill them (hell, she could even take Gil, if she could force him to be serious enough to use Ea).

So, as a lone fighter, she'd be pretty hopeless (when it came to fighting servants), but as a master, she's damn useful, because if her servant can force their opponent to use their NP, then she's won because she can just use Fragarach on them. So, basically, the only way to defeat Bazette and her servant is to do so without using your 'trump card' (notably, God Hand counts as a 'trump card'). Gil could do it, because he could just GoB-spam them, and Archer maybe could, because I'm not sure UBW would count as a 'trump card', but most servants would be at a huge disadvantage, especially if Bazette and her servant were fighting tactically (like she does with Avenger in HA). Add to that the fact that she could take pretty much any master in a fight (because her job is hunting rouge magi and sealing them) and she's a pretty damn formidable opponent.

[orangejuicetang]

Technically, even though God Hand counts as a 'trump card', she'd still be screwed against Berserker because while Fragarch would instantly take off one life, Godhand would develop a resistance, and there really isn't anything she or Avenger can do there.

Oh, and she's also screwed against Caster since Caster apparently 'doesn't have a trump card' or 'an attack that qualifies as a trump card' or something like that.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Technically, even though God Hand counts as a 'trump card', she'd still be screwed against Berserker because while Fragarch would instantly take off one life, Godhand would develop a resistance, and there really isn't anything she or Avenger can do there.

Is that actually the case, though? I don't know what happened in HA when she fought him.

Oh, and she's also screwed against Caster since Caster apparently 'doesn't have a trump card' or 'an attack that qualifies as a trump card' or something like that.

Yeah, I know. I'd imagine the same would apply to Archer, too, although UBW might count. But, she's a master. She's not supposed to be able to take down servants. The fact that she's able to deal with most of them, in certain circumstances, coupled with the fact that she can outfight any master (pretty much, anyway) means she's almost certainly the best master in the war, overall.

[orangejuicetang]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Godhand would develop a resistance, but I can't find it now. But regardless, I'll just post the relevant quotes.

It's powerful but not as good against those that can resurrect themselves after being killed once (Berserker). Also, only responds that way in regards to the trump card of the opponent, whether it's a Noble Phantasm or not. Can be used normally, but it is the equivalent of a C or D ranked Noble Phantasm when used without those special conditions (the non-Answerer effect).

Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win?
A: If it's the first fight, then Kuzuki will win. If it's the second fight, then Bazett would pretty much completely win. Kuzuki could even drive Saber into a corner as long as his trick was kept hidden, but Bazett is also an expert at hand-to-hand combat thought of and developed by human beings. There's the possibility that she might adapt to Kuzuki's "snake" quicker than the Servants, who are more emphasized by their talent. However, since she might underestimate Kuzuki-sensei as being a normal person, Bazett could be beaten pretty simply.

Bazett vs. Caster
Nasu: As has been speculated (by the editors), the battle would proceed with Caster winning overwhelmingly.
As Caster doesn't have a trump card to use against Bazett, she's quite the difficult opponent for Bazett to handle (note: in other words, Fragarach is useless). While lady Bazett is at times able to dodge, deflect, or nullify high thaumaturgy, she'd be fatigued before she could grab a chance at getting the upper hand.

.....Oh and you see. Caster-san. She's merciless against mature women.

Bazett vs Shirou
What Nasu said:
With this time's battle, since we're working off the assumption that Shirou "has trained/is operating himself to the max", people might think that this might end up being a good fight, but m'lady Bazett's a trained professional specializing in anti-magus battles. Technique, experience, and battle power. Against someone like her whose superior in all those regards, even with a "Broken Phantasm", Shirou's disadvantages are still not going to change. And you see. She's ruthless.

Summary of....oh, who the hell cares:
Lesse. Stuff to note is that the editor response mentioned stuff like "unleashing true name of Noble Phantasm", "Reality Marble", "Nine Lives", etc. Kinoko didn't mention anything about this, but if Shirou had all these skills, the only difference would be the "guardian" modifier Archer gets with his "Reality Marble". And we already know that Bazett is no match for a Servant, even a no-name like Archer.

[Cherry_Lover]

I'm pretty sure that Archer is more powerful than fully-trained Shirou, actually. I think that the world gave him a physical boost as part of his contract (after all, he must have gained something from it).

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I'm pretty sure that Archer is more powerful than fully-trained Shirou, actually. I think that the world gave him a physical boost as part of his contract (after all, he must have gained something from it).

I thought that all he gained was that the people he failed to save (in whatever the incident at the time was) were spared in exchange for his contract.

Plus, of course, his class specific abilities.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

I thought that all he gained was that the people he failed to save (in whatever the incident at the time was) were spared in exchange for his contract.

Plus, of course, his class specific abilities.

I don't think that's how Alaya works. I think that, by making a contract with Alaya, it gives you the ability to do what you want, rather than just doing it for you. For example, rather than just materialising a Grail in Saber's hands, it sends her to any location where she might be able to obtain one by her own actions. Alaya gives her the ability to obtain it, but she has to do the actual work. I'd imagine the same applies to Archer. He had to save the people, but Alaya gave him the power to do so. And, even if Alaya didn't boost him before death, I'd imagine it did afterwards, because even a fully-trained magus simply isn't a match for a servant, and Archer is. I don't think Shirou could ever have the physical stats that Archer possesses, even if he's capable of obtaining the same abilities.

[GDB]

In a possible work-around that fits both, it could be that it sent him back far enough (with the knowledge of the incident or whatever) so that he was able to save the people. Though I suppose it's possible that he received a boost, it's hard to say.

As for his power level, Shirou did pretty well against Gilgamesh considering he was using a very "shared" mana pool and had been training that power for all of... what? A week, if that? Archer could quite possibly have gotten that strong naturally, plus whatever class abilities he was bestowed.

[orangejuicetang]

Yeah, Archer did receive some form of boost from Alaya. And if I recalled correctly, the game said 'he received the power to save the one hundred people' or something along those lines.

[rastilin]

I'm not sure where I heard it, but I have the impression that Alaya's boost is only temporary. It grants a wish in exchange for the user's soul. Archer never manifests any power that couldn't be accomplished in-universe by a trained mage with reinforcement and projection except for his rm and Shirou can deploy that too.

For example, he's strong and fast. But Kotomine dodges bullets in Fate/Zero, and at one point uproots a tree. Rin moves like a servant for a while and she finds reinforcement much harder than Shirou. He uses projection, but Shirou projects too. He's a crack shot, but he's always been that way.. etc..

[Cherry_Lover]

Servants are supposed to be way ahead of humans. Archer is a servant, and can fight with other servants, so he must be above normal magi.

Plus, even if Alaya's boost was only temporary when he was alive, I can't see why Alaya wouldn't apply the same boost to him after death, when he became a Counter-Guardian.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Servants are supposed to be way ahead of humans. Archer is a servant, and can fight with other servants, so he must be above normal magi.

Except his stats are piss poor, despite having a Master as powerful as Rin.

Besides, we've already seen Shirou hold his own against Archer and Gilgamesh with very little training, plus he was able to fend off Kuzuki for a good amount of time. I'd say with a few decades of experience and training, he could easily reach or surpass Archer's level without any miracles.