2011-10-04, 16:53 | Link #24841 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Anyway if Toya's disease is something not even doctors would know, I find extremely hard to believe that Ryukishi might know it, it's more likely he made it up doing your same reasoning: "it might exist, just because it hadn't been catalogued yet, no one can prove it doesn't". At the same time if he made it up he can give it any characteristic he wants and has no need for it to truly exist. Either way, if Ryukishi made it up, I'm not really happy with his plan. I never liked when authors made up unique psychological diseases for their purposes and I'm not going to start with Umineko. -_- |
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2011-10-04, 17:03 | Link #24842 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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-If it was locked, where is the key? -If the key that locked is (unlikely) the same key that can lock the other door, why it wasn't specified? -If the door was magically removed, why it wasn't stated? What's the damn point in describing in details every other key and every other door if you then miss to tell about one? As Renall explained before this isn't just a riddle for Battler, this is a riddle for the readers. Ryuukishi was supposed to create a challenge and we were supposed to solve it with whatever hole it was left open for us to use. Ryuukishi fucked up because he left a giant hole open that made solving his great chained closed room riddle a trivial matter. If I didn't know better and didn't assume he simply fucked up, I would have been satisfied with this explanation to solve the EP3 first twilight. This was still EP3, whatever red could you use to deny this explanation? Whatever logic could you use to argue that it wasn't the right solution if not for a: "well of course Ryyuukishi simply forgot to mention that door"?
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2011-10-04, 17:22 | Link #24843 | |||
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Actually, according to Krauss and Natsuhi's plan the siblings wouldn't really met with Kinzo... just believe he took part to the game. Maybe they believed Shannon's script would trick one of the cousins into thinking he had met Kinzo or something like that. Of course Shannon's plan were different but, as said before, once the game was set, they wouldn't be able to openly argue what were supposed to be Kinzo's instructions. Actually there's also the chance Natsuhi and Krauss feared they couldn't keep up the mummery up any further and were planning to use the game to persuade the siblings that Kinzo had disappeared. With no body and no proofs the siblings wouldn't be able to say that Kinzo was dead by more than a year (in the games Kinzo's body is burned or magically disappear which can be a hint to Krauss and Natsuhi wanting to get rid of 'Kinzo'). Krauss and Natsuhi could call the police and insist Kinzo was alive and that had vanished during the game. The siblings could have their own suspicions but no proofs. If Kinzo's body was really burned when he died, it would be reduced to ashed by 1986 and therefore no one could find it. The police would have to accept Kinzo left the house during the game, went closer to the sea and, due to the bad weather fall into the sea and disappeared. Kinzo's disappearance and following death declaration would have probably been bad for Krauss but less bad that if he were to be discovered lying about Kinzo being still alive. Too bad their plan didn't work as planned. Quote:
To be honest the bomb might have been pre existing in the military bases and Kinzo didn't have it to be turned inactive in order not to reveal about the bases. Or he kept it not to gamble but merely to blow up the island if he'd been forced to leave it without being able to move away the gold. In Umineko is also hard to trace a line between real intention and fantasy. Yasu might have toyed with the idea to use it but never really planned to do so as Maria toyed with the idea of killing Rosa but never did or she could have actually been firm in her purpose to use it. Since however I think the bomb had been switched on to cover the murders perpetrated by someone else, we'll never be able to prove if Yasu had the firm intention to use it and would be able to carry it on. Quote:
I tend to think those are merely fiction as it's unlikely Toya might have found out about them. But that's based on my belief that Ange's travel was also fiction so I guess you can disagree on this.[/QUOTE] |
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2011-10-04, 17:45 | Link #24844 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-10-04, 18:04 | Link #24845 | |
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He was hired entirely on Natsuhi's prerogative (seems she just really, really wanted a cook), though after Kinzo's death. According to his extra TIP, he was familiar with Kanon. Based on that TIP, one can assume that Yasu and Gensawajo perhaps considered letting him in on the secret, but decided he was either too much a jerk, or too much a liability. Also, Gohda uses the Devil's Proof regarding keys and eyewiness accounts to disprove Kanon's story about Beatrice, and Kanon was described as : At that time, the facial expression Kanon-san showed, eyes wide opened, I'll never forget it. It was as though his face said: 'You'll never get away unharmed after saying those dreadful things', ...... as though frightened at the vision of a fool daredevil, ... a face like that. ...which I assume was Yasu's inspiration for including the red text, whether that was ... misguided or not. <_< |
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2011-10-04, 18:35 | Link #24846 | ||||
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And after a whole year he doesn't show his face to anyone someone comes up with these crazy orders from him, but they yet don't see him say all that in person. I personally wouldn't buy that. Quote:
That or Yasu did, or the bomb never existed, but what you speculate is simply not possible. Quote:
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I don't really think that it was just fiction because it would really make no sense if that was so. I mean what kind of justification Ryuukishi can provide for showing us something like that if it bore absolutely no relevance? That wasn't even something inside the catbox of the rokkenjima incident. If there's anything that's dubious is the fact that Ange's escapade was described in Touya's forgery. Not only it makes little sense, but the scene where that was hinted is dubious in itself.
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2011-10-04, 18:59 | Link #24847 | ||||
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Basically they're two contrasting hints. Why wouldn't the siblings try to meet Kinzo again? And if they did why didn't they mention each time they wanted to meet him they were told he was in a bad mood? It would have been more suspicious than saying that LAST YEAR father was in a bad mood and couldn't meet them. Or am I remembering wrong? Quote:
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I see it as a hint the number showed in Ep 3 referred to the code for a bank account, though I think the bank account would have been the one you 'win' if you solve the epitaph. |
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2011-10-04, 19:21 | Link #24848 | |
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If the discussion had been from the beginning if the disease was fictional or not I would have agreed on it being fictional and be done with it. The existence of a fictional disease in his world would have made his fear plausible... even if by the end of Umineko we learn he's apparently still Toya although he apparently remembers his past... Also, the easiest psychological explanation would have been that Toya were scared to remeber because something traumatic happened to him. It's pretty common if you had a amnesia tied to a traumatic episode (no matter what caused your amnesia) to be troubled by the idea of remembering because you really don't want to remember that fact. |
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2011-10-04, 20:14 | Link #24849 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-10-04, 21:17 | Link #24850 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
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What I'm saying is that rejecting the narrative value of Touya's condition on the grounds that it has not been documented to exist is the same as rejecting the narrative value of any fictional character or fictional anything just because it's fictional. However, if you find it so implausible that it fails to suspend your disbelief, then that's another story. So, do you find Touya's fictional condition to be that implausible? Quote:
The problem is the reason given that they didn't have locks: They weren't needed since the courtyard was surrounded by the mansion. I think we all extrapolated this to logically apply to all 3 doors from the courtyard, since the boiler room door to the courtyard also meets this description. I also rechecked episode 3 (English). It doesn't say anything about what is locked and what isn't; it merely says that the boiler room key was found (in some room I don't remember) and that the adults went there where they found Kinzo's corpse, the key to the next room, and (mentioned later) a letter. It's really quite rushed- one or two lines of text and that's it. Quote:
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Also, in episode 1 Genji suggested that the fact that the culprit had access to the boiler room meant that he or she had a master key, which would be a pretty obvious lie if the courtyard door was not lockable. And I know I'm repeating myself, but it makes no sense that there would be a room with one lockable door and another door with no lock. As a matter of fact, there was no red saying that any of the doors were even locked at all. Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-10-04 at 21:44. |
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2011-10-05, 02:17 | Link #24851 |
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I think in Episode 3's manga Ryukishi had the boiler room closed room corrected, not by locking it though, by blocking the doors to the courtyard with something. Similar to how the parlor was made into a closed room in episode 6. I'm not completely sure of this since it's been awhile. but it's something I remember hearing.
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2011-10-05, 07:13 | Link #24852 | ||
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Think about the very case of the episode3 chained closed rooms: we are practically certain now that the trick used was Shannon moving to the chapel after being discovered first. It would be brilliant, if it wasn't for the fact that... 1) If only Battler's perspective is reliable and it is possible that everyone else can lie, then this particular case can simply be explained with everyone lying about it. It wouldn't be different from the first twilight in EP2. 2) If the adults could be fooled by a fake corpse, then the presence of Shannon and her "magic trick" wasn't necessary at all. Anyone could achieve the same result simply by faking their own death in the last room. Naturally a simple red could expose it, but then it's like admitting that the characters inside the game are aware of the metaworld, and that's pretty lame, even if it's a fiction inside a fiction. Quote:
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2011-10-05, 11:47 | Link #24855 | |
Goat
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2011-10-05, 12:11 | Link #24856 |
別にいいけど
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The point is that if ryuukishi didn't just forgot about that door then the adults either ignored the second door completely, which is lame, or they noticed it but that was simply not told to the readers for no reason, which is even lamer.
So assuming that this was slip up from Ryuukishi's part who forgot the door's existence is the least grave among the scenarios that I can speculate really. The other options are even worse in my opinion.
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2011-10-05, 12:32 | Link #24857 | |
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2011-10-05, 12:35 | Link #24858 | |
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From the way it's presented I find it implausible. Maybe reading it by myself I'll notice something that will made me revise my opinion but, so far, from what all people said about it, all I can think is Ryukishi hadn't done a good work with it. |
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2011-10-05, 14:05 | Link #24860 | |
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