Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[aldw]

No, but the Nasuverse is a multiverse. Just because HA may have happened in one universe, it doesn't mean that the FSN endings are suddenly not canon.

FSN endings being one end of canon doesn't mean that there aren't other canon ends either. In any multiverse it is as the old saying goes, 'a neverending story'...

[Endscape]

Exactly, in a multiverse, everything is canon.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Er... um... I'm listening to the music on my second play-through...

So it's like... maybe I did it backwards, but I'm getting the full experience in the end...

Yeah, it all does fit together in the end, haha.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by aldw

FSN endings being one end of canon doesn't mean that there aren't other canon ends either.

Yeah, and I never claimed it did. But the other guy was saying that the FSN endings aren't canon because HA is, which is clearly not true. Whether or not HA is canon is irrelevant (to me) as long as the main game is canon.

[Endscape]

Yeah, because it's quite obviously not a FSN sequel. In fact, of the characters from Fate, it has only Archer and Lancer. Rin and Shinji are different people who are using that look as an avtar, Sakura is an NPC and Saber just 'happens' to look the same. Nonetheless, it's rather revealing that, despite it being a different game in a totally different setting, they still chose to include a Sakura look-alike, a Rin look-alike, a Shinji look-alike, a Kotomine look-alike and a Saber look-alike, along Archer and Lancer.

There is a difference between making an RPG loosely based around FSN and making an actual sequel, and cutting out 90% of the characters from the original, especially if all you're doing is casting them into the background and leaving them to suffer horribly, like they would be with Sakura, is not going to win you any friends.

Go look at the 'sequels' Nasu has made so far. One thing that they all have in common is that they try to satisfy everyone. Nasu knows that he has a diverse fanbase, and to make a sequel which involves only a small proportion of the characters would destroy that, so he won't do it. Hence why we won't get a genuine FSN sequel, because someone would get angered by it....

HA and Kagetsu Tohya aren't really serious sequels, but rather fundisks made purely for fans. I mean HA is more serious, but some really ridiculous shit happens in Kagetsu Tohya and Plus Disc, to the point where I wondered what Nasu was smoking...

But in a real sequel, Nasu as a professional writer must realize that it's impossible to please everyone all of the time. If he wants to write a true sequel, he'll have to annoy some people yes, but it's F/SN. Any sequel made is bound to make absurd amounts of money.

And seriously, in a UBW sequel, he can just have a little flashback or whatever detailing how they save Sakura. I doubt the fandom will crucify Nasu if he includes that. Sakura can be a character in the game, you know. The world won't stop spinning if she isn't the center of attention. As I said earlier, if a sequel is made following any of the three routes, it'll be UBW because.

1. Popularity. Let's face facts, UBW is the most popular route. I, personally don't wish to see the shitstorm that would happen if he made a HF based sequel and I'm sure Nasu doesn't want to see it either.

2. Scope. As others have said, UBW has the most scope for a sequel exploring the lesser known aspects of the Nasuverse. Yes, you can have that in HF, but it would be with Rin alone, because seriously there is no reason post HF for Shrou or Sakura to go to the Clock Tower. Neither of them have any interest in pursuing the path of a magus, so why subject themselves to it? Therefore a post HF sequel would have Rin, probably Luvia, and some new characters, while a post UBW Good sequel would have a Shirou, Rin, Saber, probably Luvia and some new characters. See the difference? Hell, it would make more sense for a saved post UBW sequel Sakura to go to the Clock Tower than post HF Sakura.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Endscape

HA and Kagetsu Tohya aren't really serious sequels, but rather fundisks made purely for fans. I mean HA is more serious, but some really ridiculous shit happens in Kagetsu Tohya and Plus Disc, to the point where I wondered what Nasu was smoking...

Yeah, and, like I said, there's a reason for that. Fandisks are easy to make (relative to a proper sequel) and will sell pretty well.

But in a real sequel, Nasu as a professional writer must realize that it's impossible to please everyone all of the time. If he wants to write a true sequel, he'll have to annoy some people yes, but it's F/SN. Any sequel made is bound to make absurd amounts of money.

Which is why he won't make one. It's not worth the effort, because it will be a very different type of story. Plus he'll get crucified by some members of the fandom for milking FSN whatever he does (people already complain about this). If he's going to go to the effort of making a FSN sequel, he may just as well make a new work.

Whatever he does with a FSN sequel, he'll piss people off. Saber fans will complain that it's Shirou x Rin (or Shirou x Sakura in the event that it was HF), Archer fans will complain that he's not there, Ilya and Rider fans will complain that they're not there, and other people will just complain that he can't be arsed to write new ideas. It's much better for him to write entirely new Visual Novels, with totally different characters and then milk Fate for all it's worth with things like Extra and Unlimited Codes in the meantime.

And seriously, in a UBW sequel, he can just have a little flashback or whatever detailing how they save Sakura. I doubt the fandom will crucify Nasu if he includes that. Sakura can be a character in the game, you know. The world won't stop spinning if she isn't the center of attention. As I said earlier, if a sequel is made following any of the three routes, it'll be UBW

Well, honestly, if he can manage to do a decent job of saving Sakura (especially if he involves her in the story), I wouldn't really mind a UBW sequel. In fact, in some ways I'd prefer it to a HF one, because a HF sequel would necessarily disrupt Sakura and Shirou's peaceful life, whereas to make a UBW sequel in such a way would mean giving her an escape from the hell that Zouken is putting her through and, likely, making her happy (because Shirou and Rin aren't going to want her to be sad).

But, saving Sakura from Zouken is not easy. He's a real bitch to kill, and so it's possible that Nasu won't bother. And, if that's the case, then I will seriously rage, because she deserves better than to be entirely ignored and left to suffer whilst the other two heroines are just fine, and it'll be a clear case of Nasu going "fuck you, you're too small a minority to matter" to Sakura fans, especially if he picks the ending that caters to Saber fans rather than the 'more canon' UBW True ending, which would also make for a more 'natural' sequel (because they don't have an absurdly powerful Heroic Spirit on their side and Rin has fewer constraints on her prana supply).

1. Popularity. Let's face facts, UBW is the most popular route.

I'm not sure this is actually true, at least in the West. Most people generally have Either UBW > HF > Fate or HF > UBW > Fate, with a few die-hard Sakura haters who can't stand HF. UBW probably wins overall, but it's a lot closer than you think.

No idea about Japan, though.

I, personally don't wish to see the shitstorm that would happen if he made a HF based sequel and I'm sure Nasu doesn't want to see it either.

Perhaps, although picking any route for a sequel is going to cause a certain amount of anger. Also, I'm not entirely sure UBW is the favourite route in Japan. Over there I think Fate has considerably more popularity than it does over here.

But, I don't think picking HF would cause that much rage, at least not amongst the real fans. The HF haters tend to be the more casual fans, who couldn't be bothered to read it properly and go posting on 4chan about how boring it was. Most of the more hard-core fans tend to like HF, even if they prefer UBW. IMO, a HF-based sequel would not get significantly more of a shitstorm than a UBW-based one, especially if the UBW-based one ignored Sakura. The problem is that there is a small but vocal group of Sakura haters who attack her at every opportunity, and another group of Sakura fans who go around defending her (like me). Then, there are lots of people who either don't care about her, or who like her but not enough to bother defending her.

Either picking HF or picking UBW Good and ignoring Sakura would lead to a shitstorm, albeit with different groups of people doing the complaining.

Yes, you can have that in HF, but it would be with Rin alone, because seriously there is no reason post HF for Shrou or Sakura to go to the Clock Tower.

Well, Rin did offer, and Sakura turned her down, but it's not impossible to envisage her accepting.

Neither of them have any interest in pursuing the path of a magus, so why subject themselves to it?

Well, the training would help them, because they have powers that it would be useful to learn to control (especially Sakura). Plus, she'd be with her sister.

Therefore a post HF sequel would have Rin, probably Luvia, and some new characters, while a post UBW Good sequel would have a Shirou, Rin, Saber, probably Luvia and some new characters. See the difference?

Well, yes, I can see the potential difference there. The main question is how they deal with Sakura, because whilst it won't bother many fans, it will certainly hugely bother some.

Hell, it would make more sense for a saved post UBW sequel Sakura to go to the Clock Tower than post HF Sakura.

This is probably true, yes. In fact, I'd be very surprised if Rin didn't invite her along if she found out the truth and saved her, simply because the alternative would be to leave her alone in Fuyuki.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Endscape

2. Scope. As others have said, UBW has the most scope for a sequel exploring the lesser known aspects of the Nasuverse. Yes, you can have that in HF, but it would be with Rin alone, because seriously there is no reason post HF for Shrou or Sakura to go to the Clock Tower. Neither of them have any interest in pursuing the path of a magus, so why subject themselves to it? Therefore a post HF sequel would have Rin, probably Luvia, and some new characters, while a post UBW Good sequel would have a Shirou, Rin, Saber, probably Luvia and some new characters. See the difference? Hell, it would make more sense for a saved post UBW sequel Sakura to go to the Clock Tower than post HF Sakura.

I think I would be okay with a sequel with the HF ending that stars Rin or has Rin in it to some degree. You can have a new protagonist in English doing something and he could encounter Rin. However, Rin could not be a love interest because she is for Shirou. Every route ends with her having feelings for the big loaf.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

This is probably true, yes. In fact, I'd be very surprised if Rin didn't invite her along if she found out the truth and saved her, simply because the alternative would be to leave her alone in Fuyuki.

I don't think Sakura would follow Shirou and Rin. No one wants to see the person they love with another person, let alone a sibling.

[Endscape]

Which is why he won't make one. It's not worth the effort, because it will be a very different type of story. Plus he'll get crucified by some members of the fandom for milking FSN whatever he does (people already complain about this). If he's going to go to the effort of making a FSN sequel, he may just as well make a new work.

Whatever he does with a FSN sequel, he'll piss people off. Saber fans will complain that it's Shirou x Rin (or Shirou x Sakura in the event that it was HF), Archer fans will complain that he's not there, Ilya and Rider fans will complain that they're not there, and other people will just complain that he can't be arsed to write new ideas. It's much better for him to write entirely new Visual Novels, with totally different characters and then milk Fate for all it's worth with things like Extra and Unlimited Codes in the meantime.

If he writes a sequel, people will be happy, regardless. And i doubt the fans you mentioned are going to be all that pissed if they aren't there. People are more reasonable than you think.

Perhaps, although picking any route for a sequel is going to cause a certain amount of anger. Also, I'm not entirely sure UBW is the favourite route in Japan. Over there I think Fate has considerably more popularity than it does over here.

But, I don't think picking HF would cause that much rage, at least not amongst the real fans. The HF haters tend to be the more casual fans, who couldn't be bothered to read it properly and go posting on 4chan about how boring it was. Most of the more hard-core fans tend to like HF, even if they prefer UBW. IMO, a HF-based sequel would not get significantly more of a shitstorm than a UBW-based one, especially if the UBW-based one ignored Sakura. The problem is that there is a small but vocal group of Sakura haters who attack her at every opportunity, and another group of Sakura fans who go around defending her (like me). Then, there are lots of people who either don't care about her, or who like her but not enough to bother defending her.

Either picking HF or picking UBW Good and ignoring Sakura would lead to a shitstorm, albeit with different groups of people doing the complaining.

If he really wants to make one, that won't stop him. Yes, people complain about exploiting fate, but you and I both know that if a sequel came out, no one would care about that. and I think fans are more reasonable than you think. if it's a post UBW, I don't think Illya fans, Rider fans, Archer fans and the rest will be all that angry if they don't appear.

Well, honestly, if he can manage to do a decent job of saving Sakura (especially if he involves her in the story), I wouldn't really mind a UBW sequel. In fact, in some ways I'd prefer it to a HF one, because a HF sequel would necessarily disrupt Sakura and Shirou's peaceful life, whereas to make a UBW sequel in such a way would mean giving her an escape from the hell that Zouken is putting her through and, likely, making her happy (because Shirou and Rin aren't going to want her to be sad).

But, saving Sakura from Zouken is not easy. He's a real bitch to kill, and so it's possible that Nasu won't bother. And, if that's the case, then I will seriously rage, because she deserves better than to be entirely ignored and left to suffer whilst the other two heroines are just fine, and it'll be a clear case of Nasu going "fuck you, you're too small a minority to matter" to Sakura fans, especially if he picks the ending that caters to Saber fans rather than the 'more canon' UBW True ending, which would also make for a more 'natural' sequel (because they don't have an absurdly powerful Heroic Spirit on their side and Rin has fewer constraints on her prana supply).

Yes, if he wants to save Sakura he will, and if he wants to kill off Zouken, they can find a way. Also true End is not more canon than Good End. Weren't we just talking about multiverses?

I'm not sure this is actually true, at least in the West. Most people generally have Either UBW > HF > Fate or HF > UBW > Fate, with a few die-hard Sakura haters who can't stand HF. UBW probably wins overall, but it's a lot closer than you think.

No idea about Japan, though.

Maybe, but it still wins, doesn't it?

Perhaps, although picking any route for a sequel is going to cause a certain amount of anger. Also, I'm not entirely sure UBW is the favourite route in Japan. Over there I think Fate has considerably more popularity than it does over here.

But, I don't think picking HF would cause that much rage, at least not amongst the real fans. The HF haters tend to be the more casual fans, who couldn't be bothered to read it properly and go posting on 4chan about how boring it was. Most of the more hard-core fans tend to like HF, even if they prefer UBW. IMO, a HF-based sequel would not get significantly more of a shitstorm than a UBW-based one, especially if the UBW-based one ignored Sakura. The problem is that there is a small but vocal group of Sakura haters who attack her at every opportunity, and another group of Sakura fans who go around defending her (like me). Then, there are lots of people who either don't care about her, or who like her but not enough to bother defending her.

Either picking HF or picking UBW Good and ignoring Sakura would lead to a shitstorm, albeit with different groups of people doing the complaining.

I highly doubt that there will be mass complaining if a UBW sequel was made. People will be happy with any sequel. Probably a UBW sequel would get a vaque shitsorm while a with a HF, you'll have people posting all over on how it's ruined...

Well, Rin did offer, and Sakura turned her down, but it's not impossible to envisage her accepting.

Why? As you said that would disrupt her peaceful life for no good reason.

Well, the training would help them, because they have powers that it would be useful to learn to control (especially Sakura). Plus, she'd be with her sister.

One, there's a difference between mages, which is what Rin is, and spellcasters, which are what Shirou and Sakura are post HF. Being a mage is like a way of life, you know.

And also, why would she need to join the Association to be near Rin? She isn't a puppy. They can talk on the phone, or even by webcam, or iin the most extreme situation move to London, but they really don't need to join the Association.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I'm not sure this is actually true, at least in the West. Most people generally have Either UBW > HF > Fate or HF > UBW > Fate, with a few die-hard Sakura haters who can't stand HF. UBW probably wins overall, but it's a lot closer than you think.

.....

*eyes favorite order of routes, which is currently at UBW > Fate > HF*

*hastily flees*

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

.....

*eyes favorite order of routes, which is currently at UBW > Fate > HF*

*hastily flees*

... you're not alone.

*run, run, run away*

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I think I would be okay with a sequel with the HF ending that stars Rin or has Rin in it to some degree. You can have a new protagonist in English doing something and he could encounter Rin. However, Rin could not be a love interest because she is for Shirou. Every route ends with her having feelings for the big loaf.

Well, whilst she is indeed still in love with Shirou, she knows that she has no hope of getting him (and, indeed, she wouldn't want to, because it would mean taking him away from her sister), so it's quite plausible for Rin to find someone else.

I don't think Sakura would follow Shirou and Rin. No one wants to see the person they love with another person, let alone a sibling.

Perhaps, but the alternative isn't something I want to think about, TBH. Leaving her alone in Fuyuki with no-one to help her and no-one who truly cares about her is just shit. She deserves much better than that.

Plus, Rin manages it just fine in HF. Admittedly, Rin is somewhat less totally devoted to Shirou than Sakura is, but Sakura never expected to end up with him, and was (in theory...) happy for him to find someone else (although she probably wouldn't be overly happy that it was Rin). If she has a choice of being with Shirou as a friend and not being with him at all, I don't think she'd choose to stay alone in Fuyuki. Or, at least, I hope she wouldn't, because the only chance of her ever having a decent life is if Rin and Shirou can help her get over her past and be able to be happy around other people. Without Shirou there, she'll likely just remain in her shell, unable to ever feel truly happy.

Originally Posted by Endscape

If he writes a sequel, people will be happy, regardless.

Not necessarily, because the only things that the sequel will really have in common with the original is the characters (well, that and the fact that it's set in the Nasuverse, but that doesn't mean it has to be a FSN sequel). So, if they don't include the characters that people want to see, there's no reason to be happy about it. Rin fans will be, of course, and Saber fans probably will be (some would be upset that it followed the end where Shirou was with Rin rather than Saber), but people who aren't overly fond of those two wouldn't have any reason to be pleased with it (even if they don't go into fanboy rage over it...).

And i doubt the fans you mentioned are going to be all that pissed if they aren't there. People are more reasonable than you think.

I suppose it depends. Sakura fans are the ones who would be most pissed, simply because there's no fundamental reason why she can't be there, and indeed her not being there has bad implications. Plus she's one of the main heroines of the story (as a whole), so she damn well should be in a FSN sequel. The other characters can't be there because of the ending of the original route, and there's no real way around that.

I still think he'd probably do a sequel based on some hypothetical 'good end', though, if he were going to make one.

[quote]If he really wants to make one, that won't stop him.[quote]

Yeah, if he wants to. But, I see no sign of that. I would be very surprised if we see a FSN sequel, because it's just too risky, and I don't think Nasu would want to make one ending "more canonical". Also, I get the distinct impression that Nasu favours pairing Shirou with Sakura, although he generally keeps it quiet because he doesn't want to upset the Japanese fandom (who ship Shirou x Saber hard). I also know that Rider is his favourite character, so if he was going to do a sequel that he wanted to do (with no interest in the feelings of the fans), he'd probably rather it include her....

Yes, people complain about exploiting fate, but you and I both know that if a sequel came out, no one would care about that.

I'm not so convinced....

At very least, it'd be an excuse for people who weren't overly fond of Saber to bash it.

and I think fans are more reasonable than you think. if it's a post UBW, I don't think Illya fans, Rider fans, Archer fans and the rest will be all that angry if they don't appear.

I would imagine fans of such characters would want them to appear, though. Admittedly, in most cases it would be difficult to do, but for Ilya and Rider, it could be done if they picked a different route.

What would get at me is if he picked UBW Good and left Sakura out/gave her only a tiny cameo. If he does that, then it's obvious that he's deliberately picked that ending solely because it has the two most popular characters (plus the hero) and decided to say a great big "fuck you" to fans of the other characters. I can imagine that causing rage from those portions of the fanbase that are already pissed at the absurd over-use of Saber in everything (and, it's not just me...).

The problem is that you don't really seem to be part of the fandom in the same sense as I am. You only know this forum, and most people on here are people who've only seen the anime and, thus, love Saber, hence why she's doing so well in the character polls (and why Sakura is doing so badly). If you go to more game-oriented forums, I bet you'd find a lot more people who would be angered by the idea of Nasu catering to the two biggest characters and saying "fuck you" to everyone else.

Yes, if he wants to save Sakura he will, and if he wants to kill off Zouken, they can find a way.

Well, yes, true. I suppose that's the advantage of being the inventor of the characters. If he decides that Zouken has a mysterious allergy to mollusks that causes him to just drop dead on the spot, then it's canon....

Also true End is not more canon than Good End. Weren't we just talking about multiverses?

The True ends are generally considered 'more canon', in the sense that they're the ends that are "assumed" to happen (or, at least, to have happened 'more often'), and adaptations and sequels will usually follow from them rather than from the Good Ends.

Maybe, but it still wins, doesn't it?

Not by anywhere near as much as you think, though.

I highly doubt that there will be mass complaining if a UBW sequel was made. People will be happy with any sequel. Probably a UBW sequel would get a vaque shitsorm while a with a HF, you'll have people posting all over on how it's ruined...

No, you'd have a few morons on 4chan complaining that it's "ruined". A HF sequel would not be substantially less well-received (in the West, anyway) than a UBW sequel would be.

Of course, what we think is irrelevant, because it will be made for the Japanese market rather than the Western one, and over there you may well be right....

Why? As you said that would disrupt her peaceful life for no good reason.

she needs to learn magic to help control the power flowing into her, and if Shirou comes with her it's not really disturbing her life all that much. Being Rin's apprentice at the Association doesn't necessarily mean living life as a true magus. They wouldn't even be full members.

One, there's a difference between mages, which is what Rin is, and spellcasters, which are what Shirou and Sakura are post HF. Being a mage is like a way of life, you know.

Yeah, but Sakura and Shirou could go to London as Rin's apprentices and learn magic from her without living like true mages.

And also, why would she need to join the Association to be near Rin? She isn't a puppy. They can talk on the phone, or even by webcam, or iin the most extreme situation move to London, but they really don't need to join the Association.

She doesn't have to, no, but the point was that Rin was going to train her, so she could deal with her magic better. That doesn't mean becoming a mage, or even joining the Association, but it would mean that they were involved in any such sequel.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, whilst she is indeed still in love with Shirou, she knows that she has no hope of getting him (and, indeed, she wouldn't want to, because it would mean taking him away from her sister), so it's quite plausible for Rin to find someone else.

It is plausible for her to find someone else, but that might bother Rin fans. It bothers me a little.

Perhaps, but the alternative isn't something I want to think about, TBH. Leaving her alone in Fuyuki with no-one to help her and no-one who truly cares about her is just shit. She deserves much better than that.

What about her friends in the archery club and Taiga? It's hard to debate Shirou's value in regard to Sakura, but I think Taiga contributed to her happy times with Shirou.

Plus, Rin manages it just fine in HF. Admittedly, Rin is somewhat less totally devoted to Shirou than Sakura is, but Sakura never expected to end up with him, and was (in theory...) happy for him to find someone else (although she probably wouldn't be overly happy that it was Rin). If she has a choice of being with Shirou as a friend and not being with him at all, I don't think she'd choose to stay alone in Fuyuki. Or, at least, I hope she wouldn't, because the only chance of her ever having a decent life is if Rin and Shirou can help her get over her past and be able to be happy around other people. Without Shirou there, she'll likely just remain in her shell, unable to ever feel truly happy.

HF's normal ending painted a somewhat dreary picture of what Sakura's life was with Shirou dead so it's hard to argue how she would act without him. But I think if in a world after UBW where Shirou & Rin saved Sakura, she would be okay with him leaving with Rin because the process of helping her includes breaking her shell and freeing her from Zouken & Shinji.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Perhaps, but the alternative isn't something I want to think about, TBH. Leaving her alone in Fuyuki with no-one to help her and no-one who truly cares about her is just shit. She deserves much better than that.

To be fair, if it's post-UBW, then Shinji's had a change of heart. While he couldn't really do anything about Zouken (...probably, he did read a lot of the Makiri tomes of magic), he'd at least make sure Sakura had someone to comfort her and keep her from being alone.

What would get at me is if he picked UBW Good and left Sakura out/gave her only a tiny cameo. If he does that, then it's obvious that he's deliberately picked that ending solely because it has the two most popular characters (plus the hero) and decided to say a great big "fuck you" to fans of the other characters. I can imagine that causing rage from those portions of the fanbase that are already pissed at the absurd over-use of Saber in everything (and, it's not just me...).

The problem is that you don't really seem to be part of the fandom in the same sense as I am. You only know this forum, and most people on here are people who've only seen the anime and, thus, love Saber, hence why she's doing so well in the character polls (and why Sakura is doing so badly). If you go to more game-oriented forums, I bet you'd find a lot more people who would be angered by the idea of Nasu catering to the two biggest characters and saying "fuck you" to everyone else.

If he were going to pick a current ending rather than make up a new ending, it's only logical to pick the ending that has the most popular characters. It's not a "fuck you" to fans of the other characters, it's a "here you go" to the fans of the most popular ones. And since they're the most popular, the sales would be higher. Someone getting something that you don't isn't the same as having something taken away from you, so it's hardly a "fuck you" to the other fans. It's pure business.

Oh, and you shouldn't try to pull the "I'm a bigger fan than you" card. It takes all credibility away, whether it's true or not that you go to more forums dedicated to the game than others.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

It is plausible for her to find someone else, but that might bother Rin fans. It bothers me a little.

Well, perhaps, but that issue is always going to be there, because there's only one Shirou (well, technically there are two, but one always dies, so...). However, if you feel like that about Rin, then imagine how Sakura fans feel in UBW. It's the same principle, only ten times worse because, unlike Rin, Sakura genuinely needs Shirou, and it's hard to envisage her finding someone else.

What about her friends in the archery club and Taiga? It's hard to debate Shirou's value in regard to Sakura, but I think Taiga contributed to her happy times with Shirou.

What friends at the Archery club? She barely speaks to anyone. And, whilst she does like Taiga, without Shirou there they'd likely never meet anyway. Shirou is the focus of her life.

HF's normal ending painted a somewhat dreary picture of what Sakura's life was with Shirou dead so it's hard to argue how she would act without him.

Well, to be fair, I don't think she'd be as bad post-UBW as she was in HF Normal, because the big thing there is that she simply can't accept that he's gone, whereas here she knows that he's with Rin. But, at the same time, if she were left entirely alone, I can't see her ever truly moving on, and in all honestly what would she do with her life? She has no plans or goals, because she expected to spend the rest of her life as Zouken's pawn, and she has no-one to guide her or look up to with Shirou gone. She needs some help and guidance, and they're the only ones who would know enough to give it.

But I think if in a world after UBW where Shirou & Rin saved Sakura, she would be okay with him leaving with Rin because the process of helping her includes breaking her shell and freeing her from Zouken & Shinji.

Yeah, but to do that they need to spend time with her. She's not going to suddenly come out of her shell overnight, and the only people who can help her are Shirou and Rin, since they're the only ones who would know.

Originally Posted by GDB

To be fair, if it's post-UBW, then Shinji's had a change of heart. While he couldn't really do anything about Zouken (...probably, he did read a lot of the Makiri tomes of magic), he'd at least make sure Sakura had someone to comfort her and keep her from being alone.

No, just no.

Whilst Shinji is no longer abusing her, it doesn't mean that he's suddenly turned into the world's best brother. And, even if he has, he still has the baggage from the years of abuse he's given her to deal with. He can't comfort her because every time he goes to hug her she'll be remembering all the times he raped and beat her. And, whilst he couldn't kill Zouken himself (even if he knows the right spells, he can't use them), he could quite easily go and tell Rin about Sakura's situation, and give her access to the Matou books and his knowledge. Yeah, it'd put him in danger (of having his ass kicked by her...), but if he truly wanted to atone, then that's what he should do.

If Shinji is the only person she has to 'comfort' her, then her life is seriously shitty.

If he were going to pick a current ending rather than make up a new ending, it's only logical to pick the ending that has the most popular characters. It's not a "fuck you" to fans of the other characters, it's a "here you go" to the fans of the most popular ones. And since they're the most popular, the sales would be higher. Someone getting something that you don't isn't the same as having something taken away from you, so it's hardly a "fuck you" to the other fans. It's pure business.

Yeah, and I'm fucking sick of him doing that all the fucking time. He's done it with Unlimited Codes, with the anime and with the manga. It's just fucking annoying.

But, anyway, leaving Sakura out when she could quite easily be included in the story (since she's alive and has a potential relationship with Rin and Shirou) is a great big "fuck you" to her fans, even more so if he ignores her story entirely.

Oh, and you shouldn't try to pull the "I'm a bigger fan than you" card. It takes all credibility away, whether it's true or not that you go to more forums dedicated to the game than others.

Yeah, but the other guy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. He's got a smaller sample to go on than I have, and his 'information' seems to come mainly from reading 4chan and seeing the anti-HF rants on there.

[Flinch]

Could you not only go on about HF?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Could you not only go on about HF?

I don't "only go on about HF". I discuss whatever is there to discuss. Obviously, I have a certain bias towards HF, because it's what most interests me, but if people are going to keep talking shit about it, like you do, then I'm going to respond.

Besides, that last conversation wasn't about HF, it's about the idea of a FSN sequel, which could be based on HF, but could not be. Just because you don't care about Sakura or HF, that doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to discuss it.

[Flinch]

I'm not going to start a flaming argument with you, but if you only go on with one path over and over, you're bound to annoy people.

[Cherry_Lover]

You know, I've just been looking through the old posts on this forum, from before I joined, and I'm certainly not the first person you've rubbed up the wrong way with your dickery and constant attacks on Sakura. So, stop it. I may be annoying you, but you are sure as hell annoying me.

Yes, I am a little aggressive in my defense of Sakura, but at least I'm not a total dick who can't take being called out for constant trolling, like you are. This is a FSN forum, so I am perfectly entitled to talk about HF and Sakura. She is part of the story, as much as you seemingly wish she wasn't.

[DragoZERO]

Whether you mean it or not, you come off as a preacher (and that's putting it nicely) with regards to Sakura and HF. Like 90% of your posts somehow mention or refer to HF, even if no one else is talking about it (ie: UBW movie thread). I know you don't mean to come off like that, so I've been quiet about it.

I think we all should take a step back here.

Let's talk about something that can't be turned into violent debate about Sakura & HF...


What is everyone's favorite BGM? I think mine is Emiya and Illusion in piano.

[LostHanyou]

Shinji as best big brother for UBW sequel. Fixes a one-dimensional trash character, and makes me feel less awful for Sakura!

I like Loreli (I think that's what it's called?) the song that plays during Ilya scenes, and obviously Emiya.