[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

It's an incongruous scene because not only is it a single butterfly (as opposed to many), no one actually sees it. Rosa can't see it because it's not in her field of vision, and no one else can see it because nobody was observing her at that point.

So I think the gist of the interview question is: Why was it there?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by goldendust

Maybe Rosa asked someone in the group whose she trusted to try to smoke out the culprit and report it to her since they are more likely to slip up when not confined into a room. Though it is too easy to suspect Rosa as the culprit or accomplice with her actions.

She did whisper something to Nanjo before he and the servants were forced out of the parlor.

Originally Posted by goldendust

Not necessarily. Perhaps if a letter planting trick was triggered by a wire placed in an unusual/not noticeable spot to guide the letter on the table. Possibly that she triggered the mechanism after she said the table was empty.

The problem is that after Battler found the letter on the table Rosa said she saw that the table was empty when she entered the room, so letter-placing device X would have to have placed the letter on the table within the short period after Rosa looked at it but before Battler sat down.

Originally Posted by goldendust

Though it possible that culprit(s) asked Rosa to send out Battler and gave Rosa the letter. Though why do it in such roundabout way? She could just tell him that as a mother, she cannot let Maria be around anyone potentially dangerous and sends him out.

It is weird, but remember that piece-Yasu is the mastermind here and her motive seems to be to mess with piece-Battler's head. The letter-planting thing could all be very specific instructions from Yasu to serve this end.

Alternatively, the only reasons Rosa herself would have for doing things in such a way are to influence the opinion of either Maria or Battler. Making Battler more clearly into a bad guy may make her look more reasonable to her daughter (though I'm not sure she really needs to do that), or the letter might give her a better excuse for chasing Battler out, who might be more stubborn about leaving otherwise.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Sure it happened, but given the information from the servants and Rosa, it couldn't have happened. Thats the whole point of a fake locked room. Sure Maria had the letter, but it was sealed thus giving her an alibi. Given this scenario, Battler never once suspected Maria. So we can assume that it worked in the end. e- I think I know how you'll respond to this but just in case. Even after the red was revealed and Battler resigned his "No family member could have ever done this" , he never suspected either Rosa or Maria. So yeah, I'd say that if she did do this for this reason, it worked.

Battler's refusal to suspect anybody he knew in episode 2 is a non-point because he did so regardless of rooms being opened or closed. There was already a 19th person supposedly on the island, who she and Kyrie supposedly met. Rosa would do best to just leave the chapel door unlocked and blame the human "Beatrice".

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

On your second point, thats the part where Rosa would have fallen apart. Her initial idea that Maria could have been part of it was laid to rest after the second twilight. So assume that she comes back and notices the letter near the end of the episode. She knows that she didn't place it and she knew that the doors and windows where locked, no one was inside the room at the time and she held all the keys that could open the door.

There's only two possibilities that remain, Battler or Maria. Even if she knew that Battler didn't placed it there, she would not incriminate her daughter. So Battler had to go.

Rosa herself was far from convinced it was a closed room; she didn't believe for even one second that there were only 5 master keys (and in fact, the parlor's individual room key was unaccounted for). Her case against Battler entirely hinges on her supposedly seeing that the table was empty when she entered the room.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well if RK07 is to be believed then I guess its some sort of symbolism to Rosa's actions? She's going insane but she cant notice it till the very end of the episode when she's in the chapel?

[Wanderer]

I always thought that his comment about no sane person seeing golden butterflies just meant that no one actually saw them.

[goldendust]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

She did whisper something to Nanjo before he and the servants were forced out of the parlor.

Hmm, interesting. Then I guess I could be right.

The problem is that after Battler found the letter on the table Rosa said she saw that the table was empty when she entered the room, so letter-placing device X would have to have placed the letter on the table at some time within the short period after Rosa looked at it but before Battler sat down.

Though it wouldn't be impossible.

It is weird, but remember that piece-Yasu is the mastermind here and her motive seems to be to mess with piece-Battler's head. The letter-planting thing could all be very specific instructions from Yasu to serve this end.

It is weird. It just that if Rosa had no idea what it contained, then it timing was pretty spot on. More so what if Rosa opened it during a rush during the murders or placed it in the wrong time.

While risk isn't an unknown theme in umineko, I woudl be impressed the amount of risk and pay-off here.

Originally Posted by haguruma

If you reread EP2 some sentences really stand out and I start wondering wether this was put there intentionally. For example also the "switching" between narrative perspectives or better that it is never exactly clear wether the narrator in the opening parts before 1986 is actually Shannon or somebody else than Shannon as it often switches between I and an implied 3rd person perspective.

Yeah it does make sense that Kanon might have created during that time.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I always thought that his comment about no sane person seeing golden butterflies just meant that no one actually saw them.

Though couldn't that just mean that people seeing golden butterflies in the story, it just means that it is a fantasy scene? Have they appeared anywhere else?

[J the Drafter]

A while back I had an interesting thought. What if Jessica had been chosen by Beatrice to play against instead of Battler? Jessica (and George, of course) are connected to this love story too, after all. Jessica wouldn't react to things quite the way Battler did; Jessica would likely feel even less comfortable suspecting the servants of wrongdoing than Battler was, for example. Jessica is also more likely to pick up on oddities regarding Shannon, since Shannon is Jessica's friend whereas Battler and Shannon were largely strangers to eachother after Battler's six-year absence. Battler is prone to dramatic gestures and strong declarations; it's hard to predict how Jessica would approach Beatrice's game at all, but I don't think any other character could emulate Battler's charisma in those scenes. (I also keep wondering how Jessica's asthma would affect her ability to yell; sometimes her asthma is triggered if she shouts for too long, and other times she's able to run with no problem. Heck, the asthma doesn't even come into play after Episode 2. Now why is that?) The idea of Jessica playing Beatrice's game is kind of interesting to me, but I've got a full plate, so I'm just tossing the concept out there if anyone wants to consider it. (And I know this place is for theories, but there's no fanfic thread.)

[Cao Ni Ma]

It wouldn't have been a bad idea to have an episode for each of the cousins so they can get their perspective while in Beatrice's game. But then that would have weaken Battler's character in general. It just wouldn't be Battler and Beatrice's game anymore and thematically wouldn't make sense.

[J the Drafter]

^^True, but Jessica and George still play an important role in this story, even though it was Battler that the Beatrice persona was in love with. I just wondered how someone else would react to the craziness of Beatrice's game.

[goldendust]

Yeah that would have been interesting which is why it is a pity that Ange didn't stick around for Beatrice's game.

Having people other people's point of view for Beatrice's game would have been interesting. For example Ange had insight on the exact relationship Rosa and Maria had.

[AuraTwilight]

A while back I had an interesting thought. What if Jessica had been chosen by Beatrice to play against instead of Battler? Jessica (and George, of course) are connected to this love story too, after all.

The thing is, it has to be Battler; Beatrice represents Yasu's feelings for Battler and the whole point of the game is to get him to remember her. Everything else is secondary.

(I also keep wondering how Jessica's asthma would affect her ability to yell; sometimes her asthma is triggered if she shouts for too long, and other times she's able to run with no problem. Heck, the asthma doesn't even come into play after Episode 2. Now why is that?)

That'd be a hilariously dickish thing. Jessica's having a coughing fit. "Why is she having an attack? The Meta-World is a plane of thoughts." "I thought it'd be funny. Also LIES BECOME TRUTH LOL. *Beatroll*"

[Bluemail]

Jessica was actually a Beatrice candidate for me before I got deeper into the core arcs. Seeing fanart of cat-eyed Jessica before actually reading EP6 was "Oh my god is it going to be real?" for me.

I've been thinking that Jessica would make a fine accomplice for Yasu. At least in EP1 she seems to be enforcing the sequence of events, for example when Natsuhi in driving Maria and GENSAWAJO out of Kinzo's study and going downstairs to look for them afterwards. She also gave Natsuhi the scorpion charm. And it seems she was with Nanjo when he "treated" Kanon, so she might actually be in on it as well. She should have some acting skill when she's faking asthma attacks. Perhaps in EP4 her phone call could be explained by Jessica being in on it from the beginning. I don't know why she wouldn't yell SHANNON WTF IS THIS!? when she found Natsuhi really dead though. It might be just the game setting, that Jessica is really an accomplice to a real murderer in the story, or something.

I don't believe she'd be up for real murders, but she might go along with the fakery game. Because Kanon & Jessica's relationship was the weakest, she might not have been actually one of the lover-candidates in the end. Isn't the general outline that if Battler came back 1985, Yasu would have gone with him, and in 1987 she would have gone with George. Jessica isn't part of this debate... Unless Jessica is the winner of 1986. She gets Kanon, if the ceremony is carried to completed, figuratively speaking. Or maybe Kanon & Jessica's relationship was the weakest, because it wasn't even real?



I can make sense of most of Umineko's closed rooms, but there's still some which are unclear. One of them is the final closed room of EP1, the three corpses lying in the closed room of the singing girl.

Illusions to illusions. …...Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.

If I recall correctly, Umineko talked about real closed rooms and illusionary closed rooms. I don't really remember which meant what, but Will's sentence seems to refer to the latter. Something like either the room wasn't really locked or someone could lock it from the inside. Blind girl is obviously Maria, who didn't witness what happened. I suppose her song of illusions is the tale of how Beatrice came through the keyhole etc. Might she have actually been wearing the Beatrice dress? Possessed Shannon/Kanon shouldn't be able to transform into butterflies, right (unless it's justified by Beatrice also somehow casting a spell on them or something weird)? I have a couple of scenarios thought out, but they have their problems:

The entry:
a. Yasu (wearing Beatrice's dress?) was let in by GENSAWAJO when Maria didn't see.
b. Genji never locked the door and just told Maria he had. Yasu came in by herself when Maria wasn't looking.
c. Yasu was let in by GENSAWAJO if the door was locked, and just came in if it wasn't locked, and Maria was fully aware of it.
d. Yasu didn't actually enter the room.

The murder:
a. Maria was facing the wall. Yasu killed GENSAWAJO, staked them and destroyed their faces (either for real or by some makeup, doesn't matter).
b. Maria was watching when Yasu killed GENSAWAJO, staked them and destroyed their faces (either for real or by some makeup, doesn't matter).
c. Maria was facing the wall. GENSAWAJO faked their deaths.
d. Maria was watching when GENSAWAJO faked their deaths.

The exit:
a. Yasu called Kinzo's study, and left the room.
b. Yasu called Kinzo's study and told Maria to lock the door after she had left.
c. Yasu/GENSAWAJO called Kinzo's study, Yasu left, GENSAWAJO locked the door and faked their deaths.
d. GENSAWAJO called Kinzo's study, and faked their deaths in a locked room.

The combinations I can think of usually have some problem I can't get over. First, I don't want to accept scenarios where Maria is involved, because I want to think she's honest about her "testimony". Which means that Maria didn't see how Yasu entered. I don't remember if Maria never said anything about how Beatrice left the room or if she had pauses in her singing, so I'm not sure if Maria locking the door after Beatrice is plausible. I don't think much of it, but it might fit with the idea of an illusion of a closed room, because there's someone actually alive in the room.

But so does GENSAWAJO faking. It has technical problems I can't get over. First, they have stakes in them. Would they really be willing to shove them into their bodies just to fake a death. It must hurt a lot. Unless it's actually just half of a stake glued to them or something.
The second problem is the red saying the three were killed by other people. It could be dodged by saying that it means something along the lines of "if they were killed, it was done by other people". Don't know if it's plausible, but Ryukishi is dodging the red in other ways too.

An easy solution could be that George was lying that the door was locked before "unlocking" it with the key. But there hasn't been many other instances where George would be significant as an accomplice (Maria's rose comes to mind though), so why now? I can't even think of hints about this particular solution to this puzzle. Well, if we wan't to go with the theory that everyone is in on it except Battler...

You might have noticed option d: Yasu didn't actually enter the room. I put other options for Yasu absence as well. Well the thing with the combination of "dcd" is that Beatrice issued her orders with another letter. Maria had to be distracted only for the moment of her to believe Beatrice could have come from the keyhole, deliver the letter and then disappear. Genji would then read out the contents, and the reactions would be as Maria described. The letter also told Maria to face the wall and sing songs. When she was doing that, GENSAWAJO faked their deaths somehow and left the letter for Natsuhi. There was no need to open the lock, because GENSAWAJO had the letters from the beginning (I suspect Genji).

I like this theory, because it explains how Maria could have been tricked. If I recall correctly, the was even talk about how Beatrice bringing the letter to a closed room could be explained by her turning into butterflies and coming through the keyhole at some other point in the story, which would tie into this case quite nicely. But it also runs to the same problems as any other theory with GENSAWAJO faking, with stakes and red-dodging. Where did the stakes come from anyway? Already hidden somewhere in the parlour?

Because of these little problems, I'm stumped with this closed room. Do you have good ideas? Or should I just accept that Maria is an accomplice?


About Beatrice's dress; at least with my letter theory there need not be one, but isn't it implied that Battler actually sees someone wearing it in the end of EP1, before the clock hits midnight and the explosives kills them?


EDIT: Added some doubts about Jessica-accomplice.

[Wanderer]

Isn't this all really simple? Didn't Yasu have a master key?

Yasu uses her key to open the door, comes in with a gun, and tells the three they will be sacrifices. She says Maria will be sparred and tells her to face the wall and sing. She kills GENSAWAJO. Then she takes the phone off the hook, dials Kinzo's room, and leaves the parlor, locking the door behind her. Natsuhi gets the call and hears Maria's faint singing. Natsuhi's group goes to the parlor and finds GENSAWAJO dead and Maria facing the wall. Not thinking that "Beatrice" has a master key, they ask Maria how "Beatrice" got inside. Maria, not having seen anything, blabs on about how locks mean nothing to Beatrice, and there you have "the blind girl's song; the illusion of a closed room".

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Isn't this all really simple? Didn't Yasu have a master key?

Yasu uses her key to open the door, comes in with a gun, and tells the three they will be sacrifices. She says Maria will be sparred and tells her to face the wall and sing. She kills GENSAWAJO. Then she takes the phone off the hook, dials Kinzo's room, and leaves the parlor, locking the door behind her. Natsuhi gets the call and hears Maria's faint singing. Natsuhi's group goes to the parlor and finds GENSAWAJO dead and Maria facing the wall. Not thinking that "Beatrice" has a master key, they ask Maria how "Beatrice" got inside. Maria, not having seen anything, blabs on about how locks mean nothing to Beatrice, and there you have "the blind girl's song; the illusion of a closed room".

Damn. Master keys are too convenient.
I guess that must have actually been my solution at some point, because I had a feeling I had solved the thing before. It came nagging at me just some time ago. Move on, nothing to see here... Unless I can present a hypothetical scenario that the door to the parlour wasn't locked with a master key! But I guess I ain't Beatrice. Seems I really got into Maria's song of illusion this time. The sound of gunfire didn't matter to Maria, because that's the sound what magically destroying people's faces also makes?

[Renall]

There's actually several hints to George potentially being an accomplice in ep1:

• During the beach scene, he acts like he knows about the properties of Maria's charm without being informed of them or prompted to give that information. Why isn't Shannon or Maria the one saying that? Why does George know about it?
• When everyone is hiding in Kinzo's study, George is looking out the window in a manner Battler comments on as somewhat unusual, like he's looking for someone outside. Of course it could just be that he's trying to keep an eye out for the culprit, but...
• He has a fair bit of control over people's actions, second only to Natsuhi.

Of course, George's ability to do most things seems very limited to the role of a handler, as he's almost never out of Battler's sight.

[AuraTwilight]

Of course, George's ability to do most things seems very limited to the role of a handler, as he's almost never out of Battler's sight.

ALMOST being the key word.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Even if the master keys weren't a factor in the first game, that scenario was not a locked room because there was someone inside that could have locked it any point! Its pretty silly of Will to explain this particular instance and not things like EP3s or EP4s final murders. There's also no point in George or anyone else faking the locked room because of the same reason.

It would only become an issue if Beatrice at any point said "Maria did not lock the door" in red.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's actually several hints to George potentially being an accomplice in ep1:

There is also this rather strange scene in EP1 where Maria, when asked by Natsuhi and Jessica about Beatrice and who gave her the letter (when she and the servants are about to be forced out of the study), points to Natsuhis group and says something like that if she wanted to see Beatrice and know what form she has they'd better turn around, but that they would probably be unable to see her anyway.
It's written so you'd think she was pointing to the portrait, but actually all the cousins were behind Natsuhi at this point...so she could have meant any of them as well.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Its pretty silly of Will to explain this particular instance and not things like EP3s or EP4s final murders.

It really, really is, especially since Battler was being held accountable for solving them back when he was still the detective. To be honest, I've never been entirely clear on Gohda's / Kumasawa's deaths in EP4.

Also, random thought I had - what if we explain Ange being left home with Kyrie surreptitiously served Ange something that would make her ill, She knew the 1986 conference would be very tense, and she merely didn't want to be burdened with having to look after Ange for those two days, and risk being left out of anything. Note that there are several instances of Rosa excusing herself on Maria's account

A bit of a stretch, maybe, but it felt like a relatively benign way to have Ange be genuinely absent due to sickness, and not because Kyrie was worried someone might start bustin' caps.

And I've always liked the idea of Jessica being the Harley to Shannon's Poison Ivy, as an accomplice. I spent a little while, in EP4, thinking Jessica was the vessel for Gaap.

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's actually several hints to George potentially being an accomplice in ep1:

• During the beach scene, he acts like he knows about the properties of Maria's charm without being informed of them or prompted to give that information. Why isn't Shannon or Maria the one saying that? Why does George know about it?
• When everyone is hiding in Kinzo's study, George is looking out the window in a manner Battler comments on as somewhat unusual, like he's looking for someone outside. Of course it could just be that he's trying to keep an eye out for the culprit, but...
• He has a fair bit of control over people's actions, second only to Natsuhi.

Of course, George's ability to do most things seems very limited to the role of a handler, as he's almost never out of Battler's sight.

Yeah, I know that George's suspicious, but not in very significant ways. At least he seems to have nothing to do with setting up the closed rooms. But little things can matter as well.

Originally Posted by haguruma

There is also this rather strange scene in EP1 where Maria, when asked by Natsuhi and Jessica about Beatrice and who gave her the letter (when she and the servants are about to be forced out of the study), points to Natsuhis group and says something like that if she wanted to see Beatrice and know what form she has they'd better turn around, but that they would probably be unable to see her anyway.
It's written so you'd think she was pointing to the portrait, but actually all the cousins were behind Natsuhi at this point...so she could have meant any of them as well.

I've been thinking about this scene as well before, mainly in conjuction with the scene where Battler is with the servants and Maria in the kitchen. Because in both Maria says that Beatrice is here. Thinking about it now, they could point to who has been acting as Beatrice with Maria before. The possession thing in EP7 might be why Maria could say Beatrice is here but she probably can't be seen. but I used the study scene as one more hint to Jessica culprit/accomplice. Well I didn't think of Jessica as the killer, but as the mastermind, as she was usually under Battler's supervision. Kanon was her lackey, but reversing the roles must be done at this point. It's more satisfying for the mastermind herself being the killer, anyway. George works for the study just as well. The kitchen would obviously be about Kanon, but Kumasawa or Genji might have done it themselves from time to time.

Originally Posted by Kealym

Also, random thought I had - what if we explain Ange being left home with Kyrie surreptitiously served Ange something that would make her ill, She knew the 1986 conference would be very tense, and she merely didn't want to be burdened with having to look after Ange for those two days, and risk being left out of anything. Note that there are several instances of Rosa excusing herself on Maria's account

A bit of a stretch, maybe, but it felt like a relatively benign way to have Ange be genuinely absent due to sickness, and not because Kyrie was worried someone might start bustin' caps.

And I've always liked the idea of Jessica being the Harley to Shannon's Poison Ivy, as an accomplice. I spent a little while, in EP4, thinking Jessica was the vessel for Gaap.

Right, Kyrie doesn't need to be the culprit or accomplice to intentionally leave Ange.

Gaap being Jessica is a good guess! At least she's a good friend of Beatrice's, right? Well, seems like Gaap doesn't have much of a physical body after all. It doesn't mean she absolutely couldn't represent someone in the story of EP4, though. Hmm, maybe Ronove represents George in EP4.
Bring in the dynamic duo of Shkanontrice and Jessie!

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

Gaap being Jessica is a good guess! At least she's a good friend of Beatrice's, right? Well, seems like Gaap doesn't have much of a physical body after all. It doesn't mean she absolutely couldn't represent someone in the story of EP4, though. Hmm, maybe Ronove represents George in EP4.
Bring in the dynamic duo of Shkanontrice and Jessie!

Jessica sensed that Ronove was Genji when they met in episode 4.

When I first read episode 4 I thought Gaap was an alternate identity of Shannon and that there was all kinds of really interesting subtext going on between her and George. I had no idea that Shannon was actually not just a lackey but the true mastermind until... the end of episode 6.