2011-10-18, 13:44 | Link #25141 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I think Ryukishi saw as unimportant the fact that she was officially hired by the Ushiromiya, working for them and getting paid for. Basically we were supposed to guess that Yasu had solved the epitaph and gotten the gold, stopping being a mere servant and rising to the rank of 'master' and therefore of possible culprit. Technically it can work. The fact we also have to like it however is up to debate. |
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2011-10-18, 13:53 | Link #25143 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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the first is that the siblings are in huge financial troubles, which is worse in Kirye and Rudolf's case as it seems their business aren't that legal and they might be dealing with dangerous people the second is that the epitaph's riddle is handled to the siblings. In Ep 7 Bern says Lion wouldn't have accepted as head so Kinzo would have told the siblings 'well, then, if you want another head I'll pick up whoever will solve the epitaph'. From here it's easy to assume the siblings joined forces to solve it then, once they found the gold, ended up making the same things they did in Rokenjima Prime (going on a killing rampage). Bern points at Kirye as the one who would kill Lion but Umineko implied there were some murders that were accidental so it's possible Kirye didn't really kill everyone, just part of the people on Rokkenjima. We're given the gold and the financial troubles as a motive for her actions, it's possible there's more but Umineko doesn't really bother much with offering other explanations so, if there are, it's up to speculation. |
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2011-10-18, 13:56 | Link #25144 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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So, even if what we saw on EP7's Tea Party was an indication of what happened in R. Prime and the whole thing was circumstantial killing and everyone basically riding on the opportunity (which seems to be supported by what we saw in EP8), it shouldn't have had an effect on what we read in the first two eps - nor should it have much effect in the events in EP3 and EP4 since those two should also follow the answers of the first two eps.
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2011-10-18, 14:00 | Link #25145 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Chose if you want to believe the siblings lied or were tricked and do your pick. |
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2011-10-18, 14:01 | Link #25147 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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If you count accomplices then... Ep1: at least Yasu, Genji, Eva, Hideyoshi, Nanjo, Maria. Ep2: at least Yasu, Genji, Rosa, Gohda. Ep3: at least Yasu, Eva. Rudolf and Kyrie are possible as well. Ep4: at least Yasu. Probably others as well. Quote:
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EDIT: Wow. Ninja'd twice. |
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2011-10-18, 14:07 | Link #25148 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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She had accomplices though and other people might have ended up shoting at people (for esample in Ep 3 Eva shooting at Jessica by mistake and at Battler apparently by purpose). In Rokenjima Prime however things went differently from the games and it's possible Yasu never harmed anyone or even planned to harm someone for real (it had been suggested Yasu might have been behind a mystery game in which people wouldn't die for real). |
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2011-10-18, 14:13 | Link #25149 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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In short apparently she was telling in red she wasn't saying the exact truth but was stopped before finishing to explain it. -_- However, I'm waiting for that part of Ep 8 to be translated to have a better translation about Bern's exact words... |
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2011-10-18, 14:16 | Link #25150 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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But that's unfair. If no definition is given (for "dead" or "servant" or any other perfectly normal word), we ought to assume the ordinary meaning applies. If it doesn't, it falls upon the person using a definition to define it. Most people think of a servant as someone employed in a particular way. Believing oneself to not be employed that way generally doesn't change the fact that one remains so employed as long as there is no knowledge otherwise. So from Will's perspective, it seems dirty pool. You can argue he just handwaved it because that wasn't the point, of course. It just makes him a nice person. It still cheats.
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2011-10-18, 14:24 | Link #25151 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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My belief at the time was that the one that would cause her the most grief and the one that would give her the most motivation to adopt Ange afterwards was that she killed someone she thought was a culprit and then found out they where actually innocent. So she shot and killed Rudolph, Kyrie or Battler and then found one or all of them where innocent. Then things kinda played out the way they did in EP7 so I was sorta satisfied by it. Quote:
Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-10-18 at 14:40. |
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2011-10-18, 14:42 | Link #25152 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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It doesn't matter whether Yasu was or was not "technically" a servant. That red truth was applied to a separate fiction that Will was investigating, not Bernkastel's fragment or any of Beatrice's fragments.
@Wanderer: Add Nanjo to the list for EP3, since he's pretty much the only one who could have closed the second floor window after George escaped the guesthouse. Also, since Battler didn't see any footprints outside the window he checked, there's a good chance George went through a different one that wouldn't attract attention -- say, the one in Nanjo's room.
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2011-10-18, 17:54 | Link #25153 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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However in mystery trickery can be used here and there but I think Umineko overdid it. There are too many things you've to guess about Yasu to solve this trickery. The mysteries about Yasu are simply too complex and not of the 'common type'. They aren't tied to normal standard behaviour or conditions so grow exponentially hard to solve and I often find the solution not that satisfing. That's the part that annoys me the most; not having to guess Yasu not being accounted as a servant because she's the master but having to guess all the backstory that allowed her to become the master, the reasons for which she hid it and therefore how she managed to disguise herself as a servant. |
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2011-10-18, 17:56 | Link #25154 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Rudolf (possibly) Kyrie (possibly) Krauss (possibly) Eva (was acting as the Key of the the Twilight in that game--see my signature link for an explanation of this and the Epitaph Game theory) Kumasawa Nanjo Genji Gouda Now, maybe not ALL of them know everyone else is on the same team, but there exists a lot of ability for Krauss and Eva to lead people around. Maybe they all knew the plot and were surprised at how well everyone else was buying into the story, not realizing they ALL were told to act that way. That would be pretty funny. And also, if Eva knows, you can bet Hideyoshi knows. 8) Time to re-read EP3 with that in mind... his shenanigans later on make a lot more sense in light of that. As for why Eva shot Battler, this goes back to the Key Theory. We know now that they're playing a game (at least initially) to fake deaths based on the Epitaph. The theory goes that the Key that chooses the 6 and guides people to the golden land must also be chosen. In EP1, it's Natsuhi. In EP2, it's Rosa. In EP3 it's Eva. In EP4, it's Kyrie. In EP1-3 all three keys do their guiding; which is to guide Battler. This theory along with the clues from the story is in my signature link. What happened with Eva is that she was doing her job properly, somewhat sticking to Battler, except when she needed to go off and check on the gold herself. Towards the end of the game, however, she starts getting suspicious that the deaths are real but she can't figure why it's been happening. Plus she may have eliminated others herself (Krauss and Natsuhi). So Battler ends up being the most suspicious person on her list; whether she thinks he's innocent or not, Battler, in her mind, is the beneficiary of the game, which had turned deadly at that time. Because he's supposed to survive all of it. Anyways, once you see how long the list of people who are accomplices in the Epitaph Game, you can see how easily it was pulled off. The actual murdering is a different matter of course. And some aren't really accomplices, but have had enough motivation to do simply as told. "Rosa! Get Maria, lie down and play dead and you can have some gold!" "Natsuhi, stick with Battler and don't let him out of your sight and you can become the next head!" 8) Oh, sorry. I mean like, the ones who have a full view of the island and everything going on. The one who knows that everyone will be murdered, whether by their own hand or they just know there's a perfect storm of murder shaping up. Yasu's definitely in a position to know all this... is there anyone else? You know, the ingredients for this are: Krauss' investigation into all siblings (which may have been Yasu's initiative) or somehow knowing every siblings' situation. The situation with George. The explosives. Kinzo's death. Anything else I left off? EDIT: Duhh.. how could I forget the Epitaph game... 8) If someone knows all (or most?) of these and has a reason to murder, then they would see this as an opportunity, assuming they're smart enough to plan for it. (So.. no Gouda... ) GENSAWAJO may have been in a position to know what Yasu knows, being her primary help. What I'd REALLY like to know is how much did Jessica and George knows.... We still don't know if Jessica even knows Kinzo is dead! It was carefully evaded between EP5 and 6. We've gotten the view from literally every other character except her and George. I smell something suspicious. Is there some way of working out what they know? Quote:
By the way, I was wondering about Kyrie's admission to Battler at the end. I think Kyrie had from the start planned to abandon her role as the Key of the Epitaph, as I bet she figured it was extremely suspicious. But at the end, or somewhere in the middle, Rudolf tells her Battler is her son. This probably ends up happening in every episode if those two can survive for very long. So then she has a change of attitude but is already separated from him. So all she can do is call him. The reason why she would go along with telling him a witch did it is that she doesn't want Battler to think badly of her. Rather than explain how she may have killed a few people at the end, she chose the lie that was given to her in the end, despite her possibly being coerced into saying it. Maybe? Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-10-18 at 18:23. |
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2011-10-18, 18:16 | Link #25156 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I've also the feeling that, in Rokkenjima Prime Battler found out she was his mother but she never knew or found out when it was too late and therefore ended up showing him the hate she had felt for Asumu and for him by default. It's possible she even attempted to kill him and this is one of the truths that Ange would do better not knowing. Her beloved mother trying to kill her beloved brother. Decidedly not a happy thought. |
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2011-10-18, 18:32 | Link #25157 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Anyways, in EP1, it's shown that Rudolf was going to tell them anyways. And it happened in EP8 as well. I take this to mean that this is a common occurrence, by Yasu-Beatrice and Tooya-Battler's estimation. So it's a good thing to check Kyrie's behaviour in all games to see if she suddenly acts like she found this out. EP4 seems like a good candidate for this sudden change in personality. Quote:
That's the feeling I got from EP8 anyways. Everyone was trying to protect Ange from knowing what Kyrie did. Or at least what Eva thought Kyrie did, which at that time when she wrote in the diary was something really, really evil. And you know Ange had no capability to think kindly of anyone at that time... heh. (i.e. mistaking the worst thing you can find out about people as the solid truth of that person..) |
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2011-10-18, 18:47 | Link #25158 | |
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Her sentence in EP7 was「これは全て真実」 (All that is the truth), not finished by any dot or something along those lines, because she is interrupted by Ange's screams. In EP8 she says that she was originally going to say that 「……これは全て真実、“とは限らない”と続けようとしたのよ。」(...I was going to say that "this does not necessarily limits itself to", All that is the truth.). Even in that sentence she seems to be basically lying in order to get Ange to read the Book of the One and Only Truth, because she is unwilling based on the fact that Bern already showed her something that she called "the truth". The word she uses, 限らない (kagiranai), means "not being limited to something" or "not being the only...". Therefore she basically all she says even in EP8 is, that what she showed in EP7 is not THE truth, but a very likely rendition of a part of that truth. |
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2011-10-18, 19:47 | Link #25159 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In Ep 4 we theoretically deal with her sister, however since it seems that scene is fictional as Ange won't die on Rokkenjima, it's possible we're viewing a really distorted version of what happened in Rokkenjima with Kasumi playing Kirie's role and Ange playing Battler's role. Kasumi said she hated Kirye and continued to hate her even after she died so she thought to kill Ange. It's possible it actually was Kirye who told Battler she hated Asumu and thought to kill him. As for the 'she used Ange to tie Rudolf', I tend to think that discussion went differently and she accused Asumu to use Battler to tie Rudolf down... and still using him as Rudolf seems pretty fond of Battler and she seems to view this fondness as a tie between Rudolf and Asumu. Ep 7 present a Kirye that's not troubled at all by Rudolf's death, which is weird considering how badly she wanted him. So either what she said and did was pretty different or either she was faking coldness in order to push Eva to kill her and take care of Ange afterward because she didn't want to go back in a hell without Rudolf. I think that, after wanting to get Rudolf so badly, if she were not to be troubled at all by his death, but felt free, this would imply she's rather insane... and I hope that's not what Ryukishi had in mind for her... Quote:
In the end he'll tell Kirye only in Ep 8 but in it is again implied Kirye, before learning the truth, didn't feel sympathy for Battler and anyway Ep 8 is constructed as if it was placed post the Rokkenjima tragedy so at best in my mind I can stretch things and say she learnt the truth after having been fatally injured... if she ever learnt it. Quote:
However either Eva didn't know them or they too hurt Ange (if Kirye's motivation was something cruel Ange would be hurt, if Kirye's motivation was she needed money fast because someone was threatening Ange, Ange would still be hurt because she would be the reason behind her mother's actions). Either way since Kirye doesn't get to state her point of view we can't know it as well... |
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2011-10-19, 02:35 | Link #25160 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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