2011-10-25, 18:25 | Link #25341 | ||||
The True Culprit
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How does this lead to Battler/Toya CONSIDERING HIMSELF TO HAVE WRONGED BEATRICE? You're not answering this. You're dodging the question. Quote:
That's really stupid. I'm sorry, there's no nice way to put it because it is so completely invalidates the entirety of Chiru. Quote:
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2011-10-25, 19:22 | Link #25342 | |||
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I've made it clear, and even explicitly posted before that in this scenario Meta Battler ≠ Hachijō Tōya. In my scenario, Meta Battler is a representation of many things I've already mentioned before. Meta Battler is also an allegory of a Battler/Tōya that takes this "reality" as true. In fact, for Meta Battler this reality is all there is, since he's part of that story. Hachijōya Tōya, on the other hand, never had Meta Battler's reaction. He never considered himself to have wronged Beatrice, at least not until he decided to take Yasu/Ikuko's fantasy as real. Quote:
Actually, this is the only part in which I'm not stretching things. Go check the part in which Erika asks Battler why Ange could become a witch and she couldn't, and Battler tells her pretty much what I posted. Quote:
The truth that mattered to Ange was the truth she wanted to believe in, not the actual one. That's precisely why it didn't matter in the slightest when Bern started using red for Battler's death and a bunch of other stuff, because Ange couldn't care less about that any more. This is the big idea behind magic. This is what we saw with Maria in EP4, Natsuhi in EP5 and there are a bunch of other examples in which people replace the hard reality with the one they want to believe in.
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2011-10-25, 20:09 | Link #25343 | ||||
The True Culprit
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'Beatrice' is deliberately attempting to take blame for the whole tragedy, so what aspect of accepting her fantasy ends with any iteration of Battler absolving an exonerating her as a victim? Your answers aren't satisfactory and, at times, contradictory. Quote:
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Which is entirely different from Battler exonerating a fucking serial killer. Quote:
An answer that he just accepted a lie isn't going to cut it; it's not consistent with the text. He learned something TRUE that exonerated her.
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2011-10-25, 20:58 | Link #25344 | |||||
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Anyhow, as Game Master, BATTLER's knowledge covers everything the story involves. And thus, even if the story is a mixture of some recollection of the actual events plus fake information, for BATTLER that information is true. That's part of his world. That's his reality and those are the truths he reached. Quote:
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When I talk about accepting the fantasy, I'm talking about Tōya. For Meta Battler this fantasy is his reality. Quote:
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2011-10-26, 01:01 | Link #25345 | ||||||
The True Culprit
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And your example is kind of fallacious, as Lambdadelta and that whole crew are "Voyagers" who allegedly exist beyond the bounds of his stories (The territory). Of course he needs help going to the Library, it's not part of Meta-Rokkenjima. Quote:
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Hell, I'd say it's only present since EP2 at earliest since it's only then that Lambdadelta (the embodiment of never giving up on your efforts) enters the story properly. Quote:
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Either she's a serial killer and he's justifying it, or she's a tragic victim of circumstances and he's blaming himself for something out of both their hands. There's no inbetween. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Quote:
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2011-10-26, 02:42 | Link #25346 | |||
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We were always following these stories. Not even once did we ever go through a story in which we saw the actual events of Rokkenjima Prime. So, what if the stories we've been following don't follow the exact events in Rokkenjima? Then BATTLER'S Territory won't follow it either. The truth BATTLER reached is also the truth found in those stories. Quote:
That's my point again. Ange rejected the actual truth and decided to follow whatever she wanted. Quote:
If you're part of the fantasy, then whatever happens in the fantasy is your reality, and thus it is true. That's my point, the truth in Meta Battler's Territory would be "fantasy" if compared to the real events in Rokkenjima. However, the actual events of Rokkenjima are not part of The Territory, because the Territory was made of stories which contain a lot of false information.
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2011-10-26, 03:19 | Link #25347 | ||||
The True Culprit
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If you're going to say she was a killer in reality, then she's a killer across the board. Quote:
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2011-10-26, 06:01 | Link #25348 |
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Yeah, the theory is needlessly complex and I doubt RK07 put that much though into it. Yasu was the culprit in the games, BATTLER figured that much out. If he came to the conclusion that she's actually innocent he needs to have information thats not in the plane of the stories. Now, you've stated that this is because Tôya tried to appease him/himself by saying that she's actually innocent in real life, thats fine. The problem is Ange and the truth she found out. Do you think Ange would go around idolizing Beatrice and brainwashing everyone in her hospice into it as well if she knew she was the killer?
According to your theory, Tôya has a reason to influence Battler into believing this lie. But Ange doesn't, and she still acts this way in the end. The simpler solution that fits both cases is that Beatrice never was the culprit and she's hiding the truth via her stories. Battler feels he wronged her and apologizes to her, Ange finds out MSs true strength and decides to be a disciple of it. |
2011-10-26, 14:09 | Link #25349 | |
All Evils of the World
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Alright, I just read all the pages since my last post. Honestly, I'm not going to bother entering some big long string of quotes with you, AuraTwilight. I see what you are saying and I disagree with it. I also think that you have a bad habit of presenting your arguments by attempting to discredit the other person rather than try and prove your point. Calling into question my understanding of mystery novels? Really? How is that even relevant? The responses you have gotten from other people said all I would say anyway, so I see no reason to just echo them.
Honestly, you come off really bitter about how Umineko ended up. If you dislike it that much, then that is a shame, but I don't see why you feel the need to try and discredit the people who love it just as much as they always have. I, personally, am more than satisfied with where Umineko ended up, as well as the entire Yasu situation and the usage of Red Truth regarding Shannon and Kanon. I think it's clever and tricky and honestly, I think it makes the entire series BETTER than it was originally. I think Episode 7 was beautiful and it made me respect and love the Episodes that came before it even more than I already did. I'm not nearly as bitter about this series as you are. So, different strokes for different folks or whatever. Quote:
"Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I had told you was true, from a certain point of view." "A certain point of view?" "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." And Star Wars is far from the only work of fiction to play with this idea, as I said. The concept of using analogies and metaphors to describe something is not a concept unique to Umineko. Even the specific example of having "Person X died" as a metaphor for "Person X is no longer Person X, therefor Person X as we know them no longer exists" is not anywhere near unique to Umineko. And that's not even getting into the major issue here of Shannon and Kanon not being real physical people anyway, so they can't even have a physical corpse. They also aren't directly Yasu either, as I said before, I have never seen this as a case of multiple personalities or anything. So from a point of view of Shannon/Kanon existing, which is what we have been in the Game Boards in question, them no longer existing in Yasu's heart is equivalent of them dying. Beatrice did NOT lie with the Red Truth. You just didn't understand what she meant, and she then spent a good deal of time hinting and explaining it. As I said with AuraTwilight, it's a shame if people really hate that things weren't exactly what they were led to believe they were at first. But I don't really get why some people are so upset. If you really expected everything we were led to believe in Episode 2 was exactly as it seemed then you guys must not have read Higurashi. lol |
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2011-10-26, 14:28 | Link #25350 |
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I think you're forgetting the part where Luke was right and Anakin Skywalker was still alive and there was still good in him and he, you know, redeemed himself. I mean okay Obi-Wan was like "he's metaphorically dead lol" but Luke said "bullshit he is" and wound up being right, so which way are we supposed to take it?
If there's differing opinions within the setting, it seems somewhat unfair not to make that obvious. Intentional awareness that your perspective is not the common one is an attempt to mislead. When Obi-Wan intentionally metaphorically said Darth Vader murdered Luke's father, he knew Luke would take that to mean that they were different people. Kenobi had a motive behind doing this, but it doesn't matter, he intentionally misled Luke. That's just a fact of the story. You cannot dispute it. It was done, but Obi-Wan had what he believed to be good reasons to have done it. Beatrice lied and misled. Sorry. Or at least, she did per later information, even if she didn't have to be a liar at the at the time (and I didn't think, at the time, that she was, because I trusted her characer, but oh well). It doesn't mean you have to agree with us about liking or disliking anything, but she was retconned into a liar. That, too, is a fact of the story. You're welcome to justify it and accept that Beatrice lied as part of her motive to get Battler to understand things. That's your prerogative. But disputing that it happened is futile.
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2011-10-26, 14:37 | Link #25351 |
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I dont think you quite understand where we are going at. Its not an issue of things not being what we expected. Its an issue of things being exactly what we expected! Which, for us at least, was not executed well.
Hell, I remember bringing up the conversation about Battler being alive and how RK07 would justify it by having Battler get amnesia. Some of the people in here (Renall if I remember right) came up with a better solution to Battler still being alive. Then EP8 came out and RK07 picked the more cliched option. |
2011-10-26, 16:19 | Link #25352 | ||||
All Evils of the World
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2011-10-26, 18:10 | Link #25353 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-10-26, 23:01 | Link #25354 |
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Moreover, nothing Beatrice said was "semi-true" even if, under her perspective, Shannon and Kanon can "die" without any sort of physical demise. Because, again, she is aware of the conclusion Battler will draw when she uses "dead" to refer as much to Kumasawa being a corpse as Kanon taking a mental nap for five minutes. She's implicitly equivocating two things she knows are different and that she knows Battler won't know are different.
Even if we assume Battler actually knew everything, how would he know that? Think about that for a second.
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2011-10-26, 23:40 | Link #25355 |
The True Culprit
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Basically, the reason it's lying is because of intent, and anyone trying to argue around that doesn't understand the concept of lying. She is deliberately making him draw the incorrect conclusion. This isn't comparable to when she presents these obviously false witches and magic scenarios with the intention of goading him into solving them, she is deliberately feeding him false information knowing he's accept it. He's too busy trying to dispel this supernatural bullshit to be scrutinizing "human" details like this.
Especially when his defining fucking characteristic is that he refuses to stop trusting people he knows personally. Jesus fuck, she's stacking every possible card against him and getting pissed that he can't beat a royal flush.
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2011-10-27, 00:48 | Link #25356 |
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Again, can we not all just agree on Battler's incompetence running into Beato straddling the line of cheating?
What gets me a bit, is that Battler entertained the thought of personality death, theorizing that Jessica's body, but not necessarily Jessica, had killed Nanjo in EP3. And then, never again. It's mostly that not only was it brought up, but Beato clearly was compelled to respond with No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo I imagine at that moment she got herself absurdly excited, thinking the whole thing was about to end, right there. |
2011-10-27, 06:45 | Link #25357 |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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um guy's i have anathor question lol ...
how was Ange able to revive sakutaro for Maria if "This is my Golden Land A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist"? i know this scene is a meta but.. red is the truth so... |
2011-10-27, 07:04 | Link #25359 |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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but the sakutarou that she brought was not the one maria knew right?
meaby she made a new sakutaro and told maria it was the old one? but should'nt beatrice be able to do the same and lie to maria? this meta bullsh**. lol RYUUUU stop trolling mee!!! lol |
2011-10-27, 07:09 | Link #25360 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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She found them inside old man Kuwabata's futon shop, she didn't make em at all. How they got there is a mystery and I dont think it matters much in the end game.
As for why Beatrice didn't make one herself...she's probably not good a sewing thins? |
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