2011-11-06, 10:53 | Link #25501 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I got the impression from the mystery game in EP8 that Tohya doesn't really have an issue with people coming up with puzzles inspired by the incident. The thing he doesn't like is when those people, having filled their puzzle with all kinds of malicious elements for their own entertainment, try to claim that their puzzle is actually what happened on the island. It's basically a difference in how the memories of the real people are treated. I guess what I'm saying is, Tohya's forgeries are things meant to be published in the world of Rokkenjima Prime. To the extent that they contain a message for someone, the intended direct target of that message is not necessarily us.
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2011-11-06, 10:55 | Link #25502 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The thing still falls flat because in the end we're more prone to compare the goats to mystery readers, not to people gossipping about real life murder cases. Sure, we theoretically know in the Umineko world the murder was real and the people in there was talking of a real murder case but somehow we end up relating the whole situation more to a 'reading a book' than to a 'dealing with a real crime' and therefore we can't feel guilty if we wished the characters die and if we didn't cry when they die of a grumesome death. Battler's complains about Beatrice killing his family over and over seems silly as soon as you catch it's a game and she's merely proposing him a fiction and not murdering someone. |
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2011-11-06, 12:45 | Link #25503 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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So it's kind of like wagging your finger at a problem you created and didn't really flesh out. Who are we supposed to be thinking is the problem here? And is Touya really helping by publishing? Quote:
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2011-11-06, 13:32 | Link #25504 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Ops... I completely misunderstood you, sorry... *hides in embarrassment* |
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2011-11-06, 14:29 | Link #25505 | |||
Senior Member
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He is in the dilemma of either wanting to make money or making a point...and he admits himself that he started wavering and went for the first when writing Umineko and really regrets that (especially after the complaints following EP2). And who actually failed is still open to discussion, because he did say that this was not a game where a solution would be guaranteed. He even went as far to say that he wouldn't give a clear solution like he did with Higurashi as early as the first four core games. Quote:
Major criticism for Higurashi came after the ending because people said that it was a copy-paste solution with no real connection to the plot, which basically voids what came before of all meaning. You can basically just paste the solution anywhere and "see how stupid the whole concept is" without the necessity of getting in contact with the major plot at all. He wanted to try and create a story in which the solution cannot be copy-pasted because there is no model solution in the story. It's not about the danger of spoilers or the danger of losing sales (not as a central point at least), it's about wanting to create something that needs that plot-contact, that close reading. Quote:
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2011-11-06, 14:54 | Link #25506 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2011-11-06, 15:13 | Link #25507 | |||
The True Culprit
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Kinzo, on the other hand, seems to have had a total moment of insanity.
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2011-11-06, 16:06 | Link #25508 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Aren't the readers paying for his work? Or is he giving it for free?
If he's a fanfic writer, sharing his work for free in the net, no, he has no obligations as he's giving without receiving anything. If he wants money, yes, he has. I work to get the money, I want to use it to buy things I'll like, not things the writer likes and I don't. We can deal with it saying he has a wide public and can't write something everyone will like or that he failed in writing something his readers will like not with 'hey but he's not supposed to write something his readers will like'. If you get paid to do something then it's a job and a job, to be well done, has to satisfy the person that pay you. Said this I still think Umineko is worth being read and so isn't a complete waste of time and money. Quote:
Which is human. However since you say he chose the first (making money) he should have aimed even more into making something his readers would have liked... unless he planned to deceive them making them believe they would have liked him when he knew the work he was writing didn't aim at that. Quote:
The chain of information was broken by a mere language problem. If that's the problem it's nobody's fault and he's not to blame. Playing his game/watching the anime series might have given me the idea he was promising something but if in the BIG RED warning in Japanese only he advertised he was going to give his readers something completely different well, nor he or I could have helped the miscomunication. Now it would be interesting to know the opinion of Japanese fans. Quote:
In the second case no harm done. In the first it works as a promotion of his work and becomes a commercial reason. Now, in my best theory I like to think he did it because he wanted THIS, what we're doing now, the discussion about his work. As long as you don't know the truth about Umineko you keep on making theories. I think for a writer seeing readers fighting to try to understand his work and discussing it together must be very satisfying. If I were at his place I would be lurking in all the Japanese Umineko forum to see how close or how far people are in their deductions and I think many are having fun in discussing Umineko like this. I know I have fun in making theories. However, as I've already said, it's the idea that there's the possibility that there never will be an answer that annoys me. I need closure, I need to check my answer and see if they match with his. The idea I will never be able to do so, irritate me to no end and, although I think he has a answer and didn't just randomly made a game without knowing the answer, sometimes I end up thinking he's not revealing his answer because it's simply 'no good enough' and he realized it which isn't definitely a happy thought. Quote:
All those artists who created such amazing beautiful things had to please people with their job or they wouldn't get paid and would die of starvation and yet they managed to create new stuffs while pleasing whoever was paying them for their work. As far as I'm involved if an artist is good he can create new stuffs while at the same time making something that will be likeable and appealing. One doesn't NECESSARY exclude the other though following merely one goal instead than two might be easier. |
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2011-11-06, 16:10 | Link #25509 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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In the games the one who murders is Yasu... are you saying Yasu was also the culprit for Rokkenjima Prime? ... though I seem to remember your theory was different so I fear I'm misunderstanding you completely... -_- |
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2011-11-06, 16:25 | Link #25510 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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A common joke is that the most dangerous are the quiet ones... because no one will note they're completely out of it until they'll give vent to their insanity. So it's possible to assume Yasu is insane or that something caused her to snap. Ep 7 implies she might have been raped, this might have been a deciding factor in making her snap... if she ever snapped and if she ever was raped (there are too many 'if' in Umineko). ... though my idea is that Yasu never put her fantasies into real action and never killed anyone in Rokkenjima Prime. EP 8 seems to imply Kinzo wasn't insane and in EP 7 Will said something (or was it Ryukishi in an interview? Damn it I can't remember...) that seemed to imply we assume Kinzo raped his daughter but that, although still incest, it might have been it was consensual so maybe in Rokkenjima Prime things went drastically different. Though with the little info we've on Rokkenjima Prime is possible to assume almost everything without being proved wrong.... Anyway, back to the previous topic, it's possible that Yasu and Kinzo are mad in the games and sane in Rokkenjima Prime. So in the games Kinzo looks insane and Yasu merely hides it and in Rokkenjima Prime they're just the cheerful grandad we see in Ep 8 and a girl with too much fantasy. |
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2011-11-06, 16:52 | Link #25511 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-11-06, 16:58 | Link #25512 | |||
Senior Member
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Renall for example doesn't care for mystery fiction...is every mystery novel ever written a poor example of literature because it doesn't please people like him who dislike mystery novels in general? Or are authors of everyday life romances cheating me because they fail to write about things that interest me? And don't say that this is what genre-specifications are for, they are drawn so arbitrarily that you could basically apply at least 3 or 4 genre to each popular novel of recent times. He basically wrote Umineko as an experiment and as such he chose a rather fitting medium, the Dôjin area. Dôjin projects are, as the name implies, made by and for people of the same interest. You could argue that 07th Expansion exists at a border between commercial item and fan culture, but that doesn't remove the original frame in which it was published. Quote:
That does not mean that this compromise is necessarly bad, but in Uminekos case he basically started out by appealing to a very specific audience (Mystery Maniacs who grew up with magazines like FAUST and have a certain knowledge or at least interest in genre conventions, yet are flexible enough to accept a critical approach to that) and went soft because he didn't want to loose the audience he gained through the popularity surge of Higurashi. This was, for me, his biggest mistake...but at least he admits he did it. Quote:
Does that make what he said ineffective? I wouldn't say so. But it's a problem that shows in the diversity of how Umineko is perceived in Japan. If you look at his target audience, the mystery maniacs, their main point of criticsm is that it didn't appeal to them how weak the mystery aspect basically was. |
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2011-11-06, 17:20 | Link #25513 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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It's possible she could have been remained in control, there's lot of normal people with fantasies and there's people who in the long run lost control of it. But I guess the major difference in us is that you look confident in your opinion while I, despite sharing the same idea, can't rule out the opposite idea yet. I'm always very wary of discharging ideas... call it a personal fault in dealing with works like Umineko... Quote:
Ep 7 has a flashback in which is implied he said something about his feelings being inappropriate. It's possible Kinzo merely voiced them and that was all he did. To Yasu however it could have been traumatic to find out her father viewed her in that way, that he did the same with her mother and seeing him die short after. Hearing out how Natsuhi tossed her from a cliff and how she has physical problems might have made worse the whole thing. However it's all really confuse. In Ep 7 we see that first Kinzo is a nice grandfather and the meeting going perfectly well then in the Teaparty we see those flashbacks. One was confirmed to be true but we've no idea if the one with Kinzo saying unappropriate things to Yasu is true as well. That might be also the flashback is lying or that I'm misinterpreting things due to what Bern said. The sentence is: Quote:
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2011-11-06, 17:27 | Link #25514 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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By the way, the "truth" I'm referring to here is the "truth" that I think RK07 wants us to get out of it, which isn't something like the chronological facts or whodunit or anything like that, but something more along the lines that the unfortunate incident resulted not from an individual, but the group of people that were assembled on the island, none of which were wholly evil or undeserving of sympathy. Heck, it's ironically possible that Yasu didn't even know the "cold, hard" version of the truth when she wrote the first two forgeries. It's actually a fairly large assumption on our part to think that she did. As for what did happen in "cold, hard" truth terms, I think Kyrie played a major part in the killings, but other than that I'm not confident of any details. It's even possible that Kyrie is completely innocent but also a killer, like in AT's "<George is culprit and kills a bunch of people <Kyrie kills George in self or familial defense <Eva kills Kyrie for killing her son" scenario. |
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2011-11-06, 17:41 | Link #25515 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-11-06, 18:34 | Link #25516 | |
Senior Member
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The question was, why is, when Beatrice shows her final riddle and reveals the candy do Ange, left hand and right hand written in purple? The idea implied by it is quite clever if you think about the definition of purple truth: Only if Beatrice is the culprit can she lie about what hands she used, so that means that you can accept it as magic. If she is not the culprit then this was the truth and it was merely a trick, so she is likely not the culprit. I think this implies despite Battlers attempt to create a peaceful version, Beatrice has to be a murderer even in the magical story because the people never came home. Oh yes and has anybody else mentioned the description of Eva-Beatrice in the TIPs section of EP8? Spoiler for TIPs EP8:
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2011-11-06, 18:45 | Link #25517 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Now you say the problem is the specific audience. Now yes, unless he's a genius Ryukishi couldn't please anyone (and sometimes even a genius fail at this). The point is he should have aimed to please someone that's not himself and that someone should have been the target at which he offered his work. You said: Quote:
When you sell something you end up presenting it. People who had bought Umineko at the conventions should have been aware of what Umineko was about as it was likely made clear it wasn't a cute love story, a work for kids or a medical drama. It's the same as selling a strawberry cake. You write on it the ingredients but the customer can sample it only after buying it. A customer read the ingredients and decides that, since he doesn't like strawberries, he won't buy it. Another customer decides that he like strawberries and therefore he will buy it. Your aim in selling the cake is to have people liking strawberry cakes to like your cake. Those are your target. And if you've invented a completely different type of strawberry cake that doesn't taste like any other strawberry cakes you're expected to advertise this because if not people who likes normal strawberry cakes will buy your cake believing it's a normal one and your target will be 'people who like this new type of strawberry cake' and you'll be aware that in chosing this target you might lose people from the 'we like normal strawberry cakes' target. But you will have a target in mind and, in your mind at least, it will be made by more than you and your close friends and you'll try to reach it and, if you're honest, give a fair warning to who might not be in it. Who knows, they might decide to try it and like it anyway and if they didn't like it they were given fair warning so they can't complain. That's what it means selling something to another person. To have that another person in mind. Writing for yourself a work target made for yourself is beautiful... but if you decide to make money out of your writing job you should aim to please customers, not yourself. It's the basis of selling stuffs. Quote:
Now, Umineko didn't go so bad it was a complete disappointment for all his readers... but let's assume since he used himself as a target and didn't care about his readers it did and the readers, so disappointed in him would refuse to buy his next works. End of his career as a visual novel writer. BAD ENDING. Now, let's assume he used his readers as a sole target and wrote something he deemed horrible but that they loved. Umineko sold well but he was so disappointed he decided to stop writing. BAD ENDING. Of course those two are extremes and in between there's a wide rage of possibilities that don't lead to a BAD ENDING among which there's he wrote something he liked and that the majority of his readers loved. They will be happy to buy more from him and he will be happy to write more. Sure, he wanted to write some other stuffs that he had to cut, but he can add them in his next work and sure some readers weren't satisfed but they were so few their voice went unheard. (MOSTLY) HAPPY ENDING. Reaching that happy ending depends solely on his ability. Quote:
But, as you can see, the restaurant owner will have a target in mind and will organize things so that the people who will enter in his restaurant will belong to said target. Sure, people out of his target might end up entering in the restaurant because... let's say, they were hungry and it was the first restaurant they saw, but they still will have an idea of what to expect... and know they won't find sushi in a Spanish restaurant... ... and why tonight I can come up solely with examples regarding food? I'm not even hungry... -_- Quote:
Yes, mixing up two types of audience is rather difficult, way more than reaching a compromise between myself and 1 type of audience. If he decided to do so I guess he knew the risk and expected the complains. Quote:
Let's go back to the restaurant example. If a person can get it's... okay, make it an Italian one since I'm more familiar with them and more or less the quality of the food and how much expensive it is before entering then communication was well done. However if one of those three points wasn't satisfied (actually there's more but let's keep things simple) then comunication wasn't enough. The mystery maniacs were his first audience, weren't they? What about the rest of his audience? the one he included as a second thought? |
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2011-11-06, 18:54 | Link #25518 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Funny enough since we don't know the contest in which the sentence was said it can also mean ... F, Father...? I, I do love and respect you, Father... B,but... your feelings (for my mother) are something I, ummm... (can't approve because she was also your daughter) Or other variants of the theme. If that's the case this would be a trick close to the one used for Bern's red in Ep 7. The sentence is incomplete so it's true but once complete (or in the right contest) has a pretty different meaning from what I assumed when I first saw it. |
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2011-11-06, 19:09 | Link #25519 | |
The True Culprit
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Secondly, we're shown three flash backs. One of them is of the original Beatrice, wherein it implies that Kinzo is the one who started the bloodbath for the gold, the second is the Kinzo Rape of A Beatrice, and the third is Yasu learning of her disability and calling herself furniture. I highly doubt Ryukishi would neglect a neat successive portrayal of all three Beatrices in succession like that.
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2011-11-06, 19:22 | Link #25520 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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... actually I think someone said in EP 8 Toya said he still doesn't remember what happened that day... though he might have been lying to avoid telling Ange the truth... It sure worked better than telling her the Ushiromiya were having a happy halloween party the day of the tragedy as this time she believed him without discussion and without prodding. Quote:
In the version we have we see Eva shooting by mistake at Natsuhi, then Krauss being shot by mistake by her husband then Rosa says some pretty cruel things and then Kirye begins to shot at everyone. The whole setting is pretty sympathetic toward Eva. However if we had Kirye's point of view we might see something completely different. She might have not believed Eva and her husband shot Natsuhi and Krauss by mistake. Rosa might have also have believed Eva did the killing by purpose, be traumatized by it (she is carrying the trauma of second Beato's death after all) and say something completely different or in a completely different tone. Kirye might have thought Rosa was dangerous (maybe she was waving her gun and pointing it at everyone threatening them and accusing them) and she shot at her. Eva and Hideyoshi are scared and try to reach for their guns and Kirye shot them too. Since apparently Beato survives to show Battler the exit to the cave it's possible Kirye didn't shot her but that the fact Beato was shot also was Eva's assumption. Or she might have shot her as a witness. Meanwhile in the house the servants are organizing a halloween games in which they are playing death. Incidentally George wanders around the chapel. Either he was assumed dangerous as Kirye and Rudolf though he was in a plan with Eva and Hideyoshi to kill everyone or, once explained his parents killed Natsuhi and Krauss and tried to kill Kirye and Rudolf and were killed didn't believe that explanation, attacked Kirye and Rudolf killed him. Then Kirye goes to the main house to create themselves an aliby playing with the remaining cousins while Rudolf was supposed to clean up. Eva however joins him and kills him once he admits he killed George. Kirye didn't kill anyone, she was covered in blood because she was playing dead in the Halloween game. Seeing Eva she thinks she's mad and hope to protect the others saying they're already death. Eva believes her, shot her and then reaches Kuwadorian where she waits for the explosion. Battler in the meantime had left the house and incidentally saw Eva shooting at Rudolf. Tries to help him but Rudolf manages only to tell him he's Kirye's son and that he has to go search for help. Meanwhile Yasu (who either hadn't be shot or didn't die when shot), who had left, witness the shot down between Kirye and Eva and hear that everyone else is dead so reach Battler and the two escapes. The poor servants and Jessica are still alive but everyone thought they were dead, nobody bothered to check about them and they end up being wiped out by the bomb after having been scared to death by the fact that they found some corpses and couldn't find Battler, Eva or Kinzo. End of the story... which probably isn't true but hey, it was funny to think it up! ^_- |
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