2011-11-09, 20:50 | Link #25561 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
Something like that. In any case, that Eva-Beatrice came from Eva I think is important. A discrepancy is not necessarily a mistake. |
|
2011-11-09, 21:14 | Link #25562 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Regarding Erika witnessing Shkanon in EP5.
THIS HAS ALWAYS BOTHERED ME And to say it as frankly as possible : I find "Kanon was standing behind Gohda" to be stupid. Incredibly stupid. I always resolved it as "This tale was written without love" = "On THIS gameboard, Kanon has his own physical body", because his personhood was never bound to him having a body, anyway. This makes alot more sense to me, and is consistent with all reds. To elaborate, the impression I got was that "Kanon has his own body" was a move Beato could have used, but never did, because it In EP6, an observational error on Erika's part is even suggested, because she gave up her Detective Authority. In End, this is not the case, and it would just seem so ... silly for her to overlook that an entire body was missing that wasn't Kinzo. Why would an R-Prime writer give Kanon his own body? Experiment, or just entertaining a theory. The possibility wasn't explicitly denied until the logic error room in Dawn, anyway, and Lambda plays GM in a very different style from Beato, in tandem with a more or less full understanding of it's mechanics, from the witch-side. I SERIOUSLY have trouble seeing it any other way. |
2011-11-09, 21:30 | Link #25563 |
The True Culprit
|
A GM is capable of making characters out of wholecloth, so there's nothing wrong with altering characters. The comment about pieces being forced to act in character is, let's face it, absolute bullshit.
Kealym, what are your thoughts on the idea that Kanon has a body, but is placed behind Gohda in an edit to try and close up the "Has his own body" 'plothole' an editor like Toya might have with it? *does not touch the fact that 'it's stupid' isn't a valid defense against ANYTHING Shkanon-related, unfortunately*
__________________
|
2011-11-09, 22:20 | Link #25564 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2011-11-09, 22:35 | Link #25565 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Yeah, I know 'it's stupid' isn't a very good argument at all - hell, up until I read the love duel in EP6, I was holding out that Shkanon was an aggressively hardcore red herring type deal. But while the idea of Kanon ducking and dodging behind the tall and fat people for two days is somewhat amusing, it falls into the same column as Battlers "Gansawajo simultaneously shot each other in the face" theories - physically possible, I guess, but damn stupid.
To answer your question on Kanon's body being an edit on Tohya's part, well - are you suggesting that in this edit, Kanon has a body, but is hidden behind Godha anyway? It still seems silly to obscure Kanon from view when Erika is in full "infallible perception / CSI scientist' mode. Anyways, it's possible that Kanon having a body was written by Tohya himself, as a thought experiment, in a similar (though more important) vein as the somewhat arbitrary difference between who gets First Twilight-ed, or "which adult lies to give Shannon an alibi". 'End' is presented as an anomaly of a game on several levels, and I think it'd be kind of fitting if that's because "Tohya was just dicking around with ideas", or something similar. I know, which is why the "Kanon is behind Godha" option is still an option. Part of why I can't believe that, though, is that even though Erika barely (never...?) narrates first person, based on the narrative we're given, it makes no sense to me that Erika's piece would NOT CALL ATTENTION to an entire body she was CLEARLY AWARE OF, but could not physically VERIFY. I hope I'm making sense? |
2011-11-10, 00:15 | Link #25567 | |||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And given what else Ryukishi has done to preserve his Shkanon twist to the extreme detriment of the story and it's believability, Erika slipping the ball isn't really a big deal. It's not like she even picks up on Shkanon in EP6. Basically Erika catches the Idiot Ball whenever Ryukishi writes himself into a corner.
__________________
|
|||
2011-11-10, 05:55 | Link #25568 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It just reads as so out of character, and against the purpose of her character, for a 'Kanon was hiding' solution to be applied there, whereas "Kanon has his own body this one timebecause lol why not" just sort of gels well, and very simply, Meta-wise and thematically, with all the other anomalies of End. One of the other reasons I like Kanon having his own body in End is that it means Erika would've been given a false impression of the body situation, contributing to (and excusing, a little) her inability to solve the logic error room in Dawn. And I do like me some Genius Battler theory for Dawn. :-/ |
|||
2011-11-10, 06:58 | Link #25570 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
Skimming trough the texts again, there is apparently no mention of Maria's Beatrice in EP5. She doesn't act her usual self whenever the topic of magic or Beatrice comes out and at most blurbs out something about the golden land. She doesn't appear to hand out a letter when she usually does, instead we get Erika pop in. So how can we interpret this? Does this Beatrice even exist in this game? Why wouldn't she exist and what effects would it have on the game?
|
2011-11-10, 08:57 | Link #25571 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
^ Not intended to be an itemized list, just a zip-through of why 'Bitchy Erika didn't report Shkanon 'cause she didn't care at the moment' doesn't work. "Kanon has a body in End because lol why not" saves her a huge, suicidal idiot ball. |
|
2011-11-10, 10:01 | Link #25572 | ||||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Erika would not fail to account for the locations of every character, she just misses obvious manipulations. Ep5 has the best example, where she does indeed verify everyone's exact positions at midnight to show that only Natsuhi didn't have an alibi. Her details are correct, she's just mistaken in her belief that the crime occurred at the time Natsuhi had no alibi. It's true she's stupid when Ryukishi needs her to be, but Kealym is right: Kanon hiding behind somebody and Erika never noticing this is unfathomably stupid, even for Erika in Idiot Mode. Quote:
If you assume she knows and chooses to say nothing, it suggests she found out at some point and never said anything because it wasn't of use to her. In End, it probably wasn't. In Dawn, however, she allows Battler to non-specifically put Kanon in a room (from whence he can escape, if Shkanon is true, and if she knows it's true she'd know that), puts Shannon in the other room, then acts completely flummoxed by a Shkanon Save(tm). Again, if we assume she somehow already knew, she's acting. Why would she act in a situation that explicitly moves her from winning outright to losing so badly she "dies?" Being suicidal is the only understandable option, and wanting to die by someone other than Bern's hand. But it doesn't really seem like a reading of the text along those lines works except possibly at the very end. At that point, after she's basically lost, I could perhaps see her realizing her failure but choosing to allow herself to be denied rather than remain Bern's puppet... but any time before that and she's being heaped praise and given power and seems totally happy with that. There's no good reason why she'd want to lose that."Kanon has a body as soon as he's defined to have one" might also basically work. It always bothered me in Dawn that the narration says Battler could have said Kanon was in the other room. If Shkanon is true, the narration is lying (he can't put one person in two rooms). If, however, he can put Kanon in the room if he chooses to do so, but in so doing gives up Shkanon by giving Kanon his own body, at least the third-person omniscient narrator isn't blatantly lying about Battler's own thought process.
__________________
|
||||
2011-11-10, 14:15 | Link #25573 | ||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Also, why would he DO that? Quote:
Quote:
WHY THE HELL NOT LOLOLOLOL SHKANON Gohda of course doesn't realize he has a change of meido clothes strapped to his back at all times. No one comments on it because it's hilarious. Quote:
Because the omniscient narrator is kind of a lying bastard when it comes to POV characters' thought processes, even if we're supposed to trust them. I'm not saying Battler couldn't give Kanon a body at any point, I just don't think he's willing to do so, except in LOLMAGIC EVERYWHERE SMILES TIME EP8.
__________________
|
||||
2011-11-10, 16:14 | Link #25574 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Usually not off the board. I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying it was unusual precisely because the narrator in meta-scenes usually doesn't.
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2011-11-10, 17:57 | Link #25575 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
I brought this up a while back, but since we have Ange as the Reader in that episode, and the story she was reading explicitly included the meta-world, we ought to consider that she might be responsible for some of the meta-world narration. She doesn't have any reason to intentionally distort the story, but that doesn't mean she couldn't unintentionally distort it by being wrong about something.
__________________
|
2011-11-10, 19:15 | Link #25577 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
If we apply Ôtsuka's theory of Gamemasters to this, it's possible to make any character do anything as long as it is coherent with the groundrules of the original setting (e.g. everybody dies/vanishes unless reported otherwise past 1986), which is the real event of the Rokkenjima desaster within the Umineko universe. Every other not fixed aspect can be adjusted to the authors liking. Like in a tabletop RPG the characters are nothing more than containers for a certain role and because the role of the culprit is not fixed it can be applied to anybody. Then the players decide how they let their pieces/characters move and wait for any results to come up. So in the end the GM doesn't even create the character, he prepares a gameboard and any sort of development that happens beyond that is left to the players and to chance. That brings us back to the possibility of the stories being presented from Ange's reading perspective...which would change many things. But it would explain some stuff like definite depeictions of magical characters from Maria's diary appearing in the meta-world. |
|
2011-11-11, 05:14 | Link #25578 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 28
|
about the shkannon. (EP5) what about when the family conference is taking break and shkannon comes in ,serving the tea. Rosa said " you two - " ?
is this just a meta scene or another error which toya edited later? also Battler meet's them the same time. again. something's wrong with EP5. what does it mean "it has no love" i wonder. and what about that knock? who do you guy's think it was? natsuhis phone call's from man of the 19 year's ago? if shkannon is with the sibling's .who made that phone call? . damn EP5...there's something we don't know. sorry for being annoying . lol Last edited by battle22; 2011-11-11 at 05:44. |
2011-11-11, 09:20 | Link #25579 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
If it was there in her reading, or something like it, then either the narrative is lying both to Ange and to us by telling us Battler was willing to do something he wasn't actually willing to do, the narrative was somehow lying on purpose to conceal his motives (who was lying then, if not Ange?), or the narrative is right and Battler could have separately placed Shannon and Kanon, but chose not to do so to leave open the possibility that they were separate or identical people in Dawn until he needed one or the other. Were that the case, it would be entirely possible that in End they really were separate people, and Erika noticed nothing out of the ordinary because there was nothing to notice.
__________________
|
|
2011-11-11, 12:23 | Link #25580 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Here is the problem I see with Kanon and Shannon having separate bodies in End.
Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. Furudo Erika only increases it by one person. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games. In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island. Quote:
|
|
|
|